WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 4

[confusedinpa]

Its hard for me to decide what to do. Part of me thinks giving up is the answer as she says that she can't see the relationship ever working

I am confused and lost. It doesn't make sense to give up does it? Isn't it the same message as when she filed for divorce?

[AFWAW]

You know, I've gone through your thread and I see a lot of positives. And a lot of confusion on her part and yours. You have to act as if the relationship is working. If you don't believe, she won't. You can't just act like it though, you have to keep doing the stuff you're doing. The problem is, you're not believing it.

The big positive I see is your wife is still in the house. She gets to see your act 24/7. So, it's got to be real. While you may have more opportunities to screw up, you have more opportunities to get it right as well. I on the other hand rarely see my wife--only when she comes over and then I have to really watch what I say and do and make the time that I have count.

From what I've learned here in this forum is that you can't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Believe me I know it is hard. I'm in agony myself everyday.

Keep your chin up. From all the feedback you've gotten, I'd say you're doing ok despite the sitch. And another thing--I've thought about this for a few days--Are you selling yourself short? By that, do you think if this doesn't work out that she is the best you could have had? I thought long and hard about this and decided that if this goes through and my wife leaves, then I will find someone better, not because I'm shallow but because I deserve it!

BTW this comment that you made:

The one thing I don't do around the house is clean the bathrooms. I know how much she would love it if I did, but even I have limits!

Who do you think is going to do it if she leaves? Clean the damn toliets! It's easy and you might be surprised by her reaction if she notices. Hey, you never know!

[confusedinpa]

AFWAW

I know you are going through a tough time as well. Thanks for taking the time looking through my thread. You were the only one to catch the bathroom cooment

We had an interesting counseling session tonite. She told the counselor that she felt the relationship couldn't work. Then she got into the negativity, hurt and lack of emotional intimacy. The counselor then talked about letting go of the hurt in order to work on building a relationship. My wife talked about how we are now good friends (a change from couldn't stand the sight of me). But still feels the relationship can't work

Then she went into how she doesn't believe that my changes are real as she thinks they are just things I'm trying from books. I told her that my words may come from books but my feelings in why I do things is from my heart

She talked about how she felt I wasn't picking up on her cues and would need to get stern verbally. I validated and acknowledged

She talked about things that made her feel uncomfortable (ie touching) and cheap (ie comments about her underwear, or lack there of)

She still wants to leave and can't see working on the relationship as she thinks it will not workbut I got good things to tweak my 180

When we got home she did ask me to crack her back with a hug. So I did. Sounds like she will go to the next appointment

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

[confusedinpa]

I'm still really confused with this roller coaster.

I know she still thinks the relationship will never work. Last nite she confirmed that again. She had gotten into how she doesn't want me to try and act a certain way just because it's how I think she wants me to act. Just like she doesn't want to have to act a certain way because it's how I want her to act.

From that, I'm sensing she just doesn't believe that my change is real. Again, maybe I'm being overly optimistic and grasping at straws. I just don't know. I do have a call with my DB coach this afternoon. Hopefully she can offer some insight.

This morning started out just like all the typical mornings. She woke me up as she was done with her shower so I could take mine. We got ready together in the master bathroom. When I got dressed, I did give her a hug (I didn't try to kiss her).

She said she was a little uncomfortable this morning as she got her period last nite. She was relieved as we didn't use any protection when were intimate the two nites over the last couple of weeks. I'm also a little disappointed as I had wanted a daughter in addition to our two sons and if she was, it could be another reason for her to give the relationship another chance . But she's not, so I just have to move past that.

We did talk like good friends as we got the two boys ready. She had to leave early for work, but when she gave hugs and kisses to the boys, I got one on with lips as well. She probably just got caught up in the routine. She did taste nice though.

I did contact my lawyer to draw up a custody agreement where she would have custody (I don't want my boys to have to keep bouncing from house to house - it's not fair to them, plus I know my wife is a much better at nuturing and caring as a parent). I did want to put in that I would have the right to visit whenever I would want. As well as she needs to let me know whenever there are any extra curicular activities (i.e. baseball, soccer, etc.). We'll see how that goes over.

I'm still working on my 180 with the feedback I learned from her last nite. Even though she says she can't see the relationship ever working, I need to continue evolving myself. I will stop trying to be playful with my comments (that's when I would talk about her underwear, or lack there of) and try to read her cues relative to touches. I will ask if her cue is not clear to me (I hadn't done that before).

Everyone here was right about patting her bottom - I had done that before as I was trying to be playful, but she said it made her feel uncomfortable. I really blew that one.

One of the things that the counselor did encourage her was that she needs to be more verbal/direct. That had been one of the issues in the relationship. Since we didn't have the deep emotional intimacy connection after the initial love phase of our relationship (and I'm denser than most guys), she needs to tell me directly if she feels uncomfortable. My wife said that when she did that, she felt it hurt me. I told her it didn't as I appreciated and respect the feedback. Her natural tendancy when I would do something that would frustrate her would be that she would turn away from me and roll her eyes as she walks away.

Hopefully that will cut down on her frustration points and anger so there will be less of a desire/uncomfortableness to move out.

It hurts me to see the end of our marriage, but I can't force her to love me and I know I deserve better. I am still hopeful that she will see my changes as genuine and real, but I know she does not now.

Perhaps someday she will come to a different realization. I'm not waiting though.

[confusedinpa]

Just realized my last post sounded like I was giving up. I'm not, I'm just trying to figure out my next move.

I hope that giving her the custody agreement to make her feel "enabled" to leave will be the right thing.

[stillloveshim]

Love you Confused, but I'm going to call you out Man.
You are lying.
You are going to wait. Just like I am.
We are waiting to see what happens and working hard while we do it. We want to save our families and our WAS might not. At some points in the day, our WAS do not want to save the marriage, they do not want to be with us. During other moments though, even whole days and weekends, they do. And we can see it and feel it. That is what we are trying to grow, to increase, those days, those feelings. You can win her back. You have a family with this woman. Fight for it. Sounds like you're doing great--just stop the relationship talks when your not in the MC sessions. Don't let her say over and over "It's over."
You make it sound like waiting is a bad thing. As long as you don't sit there doing NOTHING, it's ok to wait. While I'm waiting to see what happens in my relationship, I'm playing more tennis, doing yoga, running and exercising. I'm reading more, I'm talking to my friends here, I'm going out with my girlfriends for dinner and lunches. I'm working hard on my career. Right now, I've got an offer for a new job which is huge in this market and my current boss told me to sign nothing so he can counter offer! Love it!
But I'm concentrating most of my time with my S though. He is truly my soul and my heart. He has made this process so much easier and lightened the load.
So, while you wait, and you are waiting Confused, do some great things for yourself. That way, should this not work out you can say I did everything I could to save this relationship and at the same time did some really great things for myself and my boys. No regrets, no "wasted time waiting around for her."
It's ok to wait, just do some other things for you while you do it. It's bad to wait if you're just sitting there, doing nothing but hoping she comes back. Do things, give her a glimpse of this man who likes himself.

[confusedinpa]

I just got off the call with my DB coach. Just realized that this therapy/counseling session is getting pretty expensive. Between the weekly marriage counseling, my weekly individual therapy and now my DB Coach, I'm going to spend almost $200 this week. Ouch. But saving a marriage is priceless.....

The coach was very encouraging (as would be expected from a cheerleader). I got her caught up for the week. She remarked at all the dramatic shifts up/down on the roller coaster. She echoed what was said here - that don't get too hung up just on her words. Her words and actions aren't lining up, which is indicating some confusion. I think it's because she's trying to be nice, but who am I to argue with a professional.

Anyway, she encouraged to continue with my 180. She offered some advice on when my wife would start her temper tantrums of can't see the relationship working and the whole pity party of negative feelings.

She suggested to stop appologizing when she gets angry/points out issues that are absurb. For example, when my wife pointed out that I had bought her flowers 6 times in the last 8 weeks, rather than appologize, I could have taken a route of "And the problem is?" or "You're right, that was absolutely aweful of me to think of you and buy a rose."

She also offered that when my wife would say that I'm not listening/respecting her relative to working out a custody agreement, I should respond that I have heard and listened but I don't agree with a separation/divorce. That would just be trading one set of problems for another. I am working on this set of problems.

When she starts talking about leaving as she can't see the relationship ever working, I could either say - that's fine then she should leave, but I need to protect the kids and they neeed to stay in this house to provide a stable enviornment as possible.

An alternative is to take a joking attitude - You're right. It is absolutely horrible to stay. I am being a horrible husband right now. I don't do anything nice or show you I care like buy you a rose/flowers, give you a hug, massage, help with the kids, laundry, dinner, go out as a family, etc. How can anyone live in an awful enviornment like that?

Perhaps that the verbal ju-jitsu that a few of you had mentioned, but I couldn't figure out.

My coach really stressed that consistency is the key right now. As many of you have pointed out, she just doesn't see/want to believe that these are real changes. I need to stress that I am making these changes into habits as this is how I want to be. I am making these changes for me. If she's worried about the depression returning, I'm developing the tools/skills to deal with them now and know that therapy and other things are available to me if I need them.

So the saga continues with renewed vigor.

[stillloveshim]

Yeah, between my DB coach and my therapist, it's expensive. I've gone down to seeing my therapist every other week. She agreed to this since I'm doing much better and she's great besides.
Sounds like you've got some OOMPH going now!

[confusedinpa]

You're right that there is some more oomph.

Part of my problem is that I had spent a couple of hours talking to some dear friends that I have used to vent. They both (they are an older retired couple) had been divorced in the mid/late twenties and found each other shortly after the divorce. They are a divorce "love" story so they are both pro-do what makes you happy. I love them both dearly, but they do get me off track at times.

Both of them said that I'm just hurting myself by trying to save the marriage. They don't see how it can possibly work as my wife has emotionally given up. The woman had talked to my wife on Friday. She said that my wife told her that she is done and given up. Pretty much what my wife said to me on Jan 9th.

They wre both saying that I'm spending so much time and energy on working on the saving the marriage that I'm going wind up beating myself up physically and emotionally and will eventually take it out on my kids by being short. They said that the best thing for me to do is just let her go and find someone else.

Both of them are amazed that I had gone on this long (just started week 9) and was surprised I haven't lost it yet. They said if I really loved her and wanted her to be happy, let her go as that's what she wanted and it will allow me to find happiness as well.

It really took the wind out of my sail and the drive out of me.

My coach said that this is common of well meaning friends - they don't want to see me hurting anymore. I know that's in the book as well. I just needed to be reminded of it.

It is hard for me. The coach has given me some more energy, but I can't see the hope to it.

Part of me had really hoped she was pregnant, but part of me was also scared that she would still leave. But as I said, she's not so it's a moot thought, so I must move on.

I must focus that I do love her and my family and need to keep fighting for my marriage.

[stillloveshim]

Look, what happened to that couple is great, it really is. BUT it's not your life. It's theirs.
Frankly, how dare anyone tell you what to do???? You are the one who has to live with the consequences as well as your children.
YOU CAN DO THIS CONFUSED, YOU CAN SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.
Screw everyone else.
This is your life, your fight.
So let's go to the mattresses. Put on your gloves.
Start GALing and doing good stuff for you and your kids. Don't let her leave you. You go out and do. Do stuff, hang out with the kids, the dudes, read, exercise, take up bowling. DO NOT sit there.
The great thing about fighting for your marriage at this point is that it starts with doing great things for you.
So get your A$$ moving.
FIGHT.