LBS need help and support #2

[faithisbelieving]

You'll all MUST move on.

I will repost...that the key is to let go. In so doing, all the pursuit, begging, etc...goes away. My W had doubts about D last year...after I filed, etc. She saw me moving away.

I can guarantee both of you that anything short of being a leader, strong and letting her follow what she thinks is right...is going to totally fail. YOU CANNOT TALK...EXPLAIN...REASON THEM BACK.

Trust me...it's the proverbial carrot on the stick.

Grieve it and let go. Move forward. Get busy living or get busy dying. If you do so, your W may just see what she is going to lose. She won't miss a wuss..but she will miss a man.

Hang in.

FIB

[lemonsnap]

Hi Song,
Sending positive thoughts and encouragement your way!

[song]

I need some advice and hope someone reading this can offer it. Sandi, if you see this, please share you thoughts, I value your advice greatly.

So here's the deal. Last nigh was one of my three nights during the week that I spend at the house with the boys. As usual S13 was fine, upbeat, chatty, fun. And as usual, S11 was sullen, withdrawn, "I wish mom was here" and very angry and disrespectful to me.

I kept the PMA, kept the conversation light, we had dinner, and then S13 got ready for Tae Kwon Do, while S11 retreated to his room to play a game on his computer. I went up to talk with him, ask him questions, basically get him to open up, but still, Mr. Cranky. I took S13 to TKD, came home for some one-on-one time with S11 - still, very mean and angry, one word answers, can't be bothered.

Picked up S13 at TKD and decided to pick up some McD's Hot Fudge Sundaes, as they had helped crack the ice in a previous situation like this. I told him when I got home that I brought desert, and he asked if he could eat in the living room. No, come eat in the kitchen with us. He asked again, I again said no, come eat in the kitchen with us. He asks a third time, and my response is still the same, but I'm continuing to be positive and upbeat. S13 and I start joking around, and S11 just sits there and stirs the sundae with the spoon, takes a few bites, gets up and says "I'm done" and walks into the living room.

Well, that was the straw. Maybe it was the way he said "I'm Done" that sounded so much like his mother, but for whatever reason, I lost it. I went into the living room and laid into him about his bad attitude, his disrespect for me, and his unwillingness to even speak with me beyond his one word answers.

Then I said the worst thing I could have, I wish I could take back the words, but they spilled out before I could stop them.

"It's very obvious that you would rather have your Mother here than me, so how about I just stop coming over here at all"

He didn't know what to say, I didn't know what to say, so as usual, he runs up to his room and calls his mom and cries on the phone to her for 45 minutes.

I spoke with her briefly and said we need to figure this out, and she said she would talk with me tomorrow (today).

I don't know what I feel, what I should say, I'm so confused and upset I can't see straight. Both boys were up several times in the night, not being able to fall asleep.
I got about 3 hours of restless sleep, and they didn't get much more.

I get so tongue tied when I speak to W now, I put together an email to send to her about last night, and I sure would appreciate feedback.

Here's the email:
_________________________________
W,

Last night was a very difficult night for all of us, and I apologize for being the catalyst that set the whole event in motion. I think everyone is confused, tense, unsure how to act in each other's presence, and each is trying our own best way of dealing with the situation.

It's very clear that S11 is lashing out whenever I'm at the house and you aren't, and he's closed his heart to any connection or discussion with me. I can understand that is his way of protecting his feelings, and I also know that I don't help the situation when I get frustrated by his disrespect and negative attitude. I feel that I'm doing the best job as a father that I can with the limited window of time that I can spend with them, and would like to do more, but I also realize that in this phase of life, it's natural for kids to pull away from their parents.

That is what makes it so confusing. S11 seems to have no problem pulling away from me, yet he does so with such anger. As you know, whenever he gets mad at me, he retreats into his room, won't talk with me, and often will call you. This hurts. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it seems that what we are doing now isn't working well.

Do you think it would be easier if I only spent Saturday night with them, and then I could help out during the week with Tae Kwon Do and Basketball (soon to be Baseball), but you would be spending the nights with them during school nights?

I have been considering what to do to make sure this whole process is as easy on them as possible. In speaking with my counselor, she offered what I think is a great suggestion. Would a family night be something you would consider? We could start slowly with maybe just one night for maybe just a couple of hours, maybe dinner? We'll agree to keep the topics light and easy going. Let me know what you think. It was explained to me and it makes sense that if the kids see us getting along, it could relieve a lot of stress for them.

Thanks for considering this,
___________________________________________


1) Is this a good idea?
2) Should I just drop the whole thing and if she calls, act as-if there's no real problem, just a difficult night?
3) Is there another approach that I'm missing?

Please help me out friends, I don't know how to handle this situation.

[faithisbelieving]

Horrible letter song...IMO. I feel badly that you ripped into your son when his feelings are based on the situation probably more than you. I am not demonizing you. I know how difficult it can be when our children reject us for the moment or are in 'mommy mode'.

I think your email either not be sent or rewritten or..better still....use verbal communication with your wife. What I read is:
-admission of failure
-lack of control
-apologizing
-insecurity as to handle the situation.

Think.

Dear XXX,

I feel pain over the recent changes that are exhibited by our son that seem to be collateral damage from the recent change in our marriage. As his father, it is my responsibility that he feels loved by both parents and that he understands that he is not the reason for what we are going thru. XXX is a good boy and I love him very much.

If I don't see much improvement or I have difficulty helping him thru this difficult time, I will seek counseling for us a family. I need to maintain as much time with him as possible now so that he knows his father is there for him through thick and thin. I know that you will work with me as we both want whats best for our children.

Song...only YOU can decide if something like this is right. Stop apologizing. Stop seeing yourself as the blame. Your WIFE decided to destroy the family, NOT YOU!!!!! THIS IS HER CHOICE, NOT YOURS. STOP VICTIMIZING YOURSELF!!!

Your anger was obviously displaced onto your son. I recommend that you strongly consider counseling for him NOW before he gets worse.

Find a place outside the home where you can have a 'daddy/son' walk or night out...or his favorite food. You need to reconnect somehow.

I'm not sure how to help you here. When my son get's frustrated with homework, and, he sandbags on it..says he can't do it when he can...I simply say to him that he is 'losing playtime' and daddy 'will come back when he is ready to finish his homework'. He gets to decide if it gets done. I remove myself from his frustration and always..he says , "dad, I'm ready now". He's 8.

YOU cannot work this out for him. YOU must have patience...be there...be strong....hold him..hug him. HE is the one you should apologize to...NOT your wife. Explain in basic terms...or..just talk yourself. Tell him that you know that this is upsetting to him....that you are upset also...that you love your W but right now you have to work to do together...that he is not at fault...that you love him..will always be his dad and will always take care of him.

Song..he is LOOKING AT YOU TO SEE HOW YOU HANDLE THIS. HE WILL LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH WOMEN AND HOW TO BE TREATED BY WATCHING YOU. YOU ARE HIS ROLE MODEL. SHOW HIM THAT YOU ARE, as my DB coach said to me, "THE SAME STRONG AND STEADY FATHER THAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN."

Stay strong. You must not waver or falter. YOU...are the rock for your kids.

Strength and honor.

FIB

[song]

Thanks for your feedback FIB - I know you tell it like it is, and you are correct, I do blame myself and am insecure and feel out of control. S11 started counseling last week, and both W & I met individually and together with the C before S11 went, so he has a good idea of the family dynamic.

I guess a big part of the problem is that I do feel largely to blame for our sitch, and I can't seem to get past that.

I have all the books you recommended, and am reading NUTS and Gray's M&V Starting Over. I realize from NUTS that I need to get in a mens group, can't find one in my area yet, but I'm looking. I also need to quiet the little boy and be a rock, and that is really hard because I don't have many friends, most of my support is from this group, and my self esteem is the lowest it has ever been.

I realize from Gray that I need to grieve the death of my marriage, and I'm trying to do that without trying (Gray says don't try, just let it happen), but it's extremely hard with day-to-day interaction with WAW because of the split living arrangement and both of us very involved with kids activities.

I know, boo hoo, poor me, grow a pair you wuss. It is a pretty whiny letter. I'll talk with her once I figure out what to say and how to say it. It used to be so easy and natural to talk with W, now it's...not. *sigh*

[spellfire]

"No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover

My recommendation following N.U.T.s, and then "Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida.

Those three books really helped me to "get it".

[song]

Thanks Spellfire,

I have NMMNG, and it is in the queue to be read after NUTS and Mars & Venus Starting Over. I also have Love without Hurt, Radical Forgiveness, Codependent No More and For Men Only on deck. Got a lot of reading to do.

Just spoke with W. Discussed S11 and how he pushes both our buttons, and we need to be firm but understanding, and not let him pit one parent against the other. Came up with schedule for next week, and agreed to have a family dinner one night. Also talked about my bringing kids to Church every Sunday (that they are with me) and how that is a NUT. I made a conscious decision to answer ever question decisively, instead of "I don't know, what do you think", or "Whatever is easiest for you."

Even though I haven't read NMMNG yet, I've picked up a few things here that indicate that I am being too much of a nice guy/doormat, and not enough of a man.

Overall, I can say that I handled the phone call like a man, not a scared little boy. Thanks to FIB and Spellfire for the reality check. I needed it.

[faithisbelieving]

Fear.

It's our vulnerability.

We MUST NOT BE AFRAID OF OUR W's.

Fear. We don't handle that well as a species.

I think that you are on track with the reading....but a time to take a break...somewhere between books...or you'll go on information overload and spin out of control.

Take time to process what you read.

DB/DR has some great principles. Sadly, by the time many of us find ourselves here, we are in deep doo doo. IMO, the people who arrive here have the worst case scenarios. Yeah...some will be in the milder cases and have a shot.

What gets difficult tho' is that many will propagate the 'this-will-be-over-in-3-5-years' theory and many will get dragged along needlessly as they are emotionally abused...being told about 'babysteps....that reconciliation is around the corner.

Denial.

The key here is that if one TRULY chooses to stand, then you have to say goodbye in your mind and fully go on with one's life while your WAS continues to do what they do. Standing, tho', for some, may be a religious choice....a personal choice...or, sadly, denial and/or codependence.

FIB

[song]

Copied this from AFWAW's thread - I really need to absorb this and live it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There are people who can walk away from you. And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk away from you: let them walk. I don't want you to try to talk another person into staying with you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone.

When people can walk away from you let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left. People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can't make them stay. Let them go.

And it doesn't mean that they are a bad person, it just means that their part in the story is over. And you've got to know when people's part in your story is over so that you don't keep trying to raise the dead. You've got to know when it's dead. You've got to know when it's over.

Let me tell you something. I've got the gift of good-bye. It's the tenth spiritual gift, I believe in good-bye. It's not that I'm hateful, it's that I'm faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have He'll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat I don't need it. Stop begging people to stay. Let them go!!

If you are holding on to something that doesn't belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to... LET IT GO!!!

If you are holding on to past hurts and pains. LET IT GO!!!

If someone can't treat you right, love you back, and see your worth... LET IT GO!!!

If someone has angered you... LET IT GO!!!

If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge... LET IT GO!!!

If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction. LET IT GO!!!

If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents... LET IT GO!!!

If you have a bad attitude... LET IT GO!!!

If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better... LET IT GO!!!

If you're stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in Him... LET IT GO!!!

If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship.... LET IT GO!!!

If you keep trying to help someone who won't even try to help them... LET IT GO!!!

If you're feeling depressed and stressed.... LET IT GO!!!

If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to... LET IT GO!!!

Let the past be the past. Forget the former things. GOD is doing a new thing for 2009!!! LET IT GO!!!

Get Right or Get Left... think about it, and then LET IT GO!!!

[faithisbelieving]

...and it's what we all say from the get go. Let go and grieve.

The key, as above, is that there is NOTHING you can do or say to change THEM. The ONLY chance is by saving YOU. You cannot do this by hangin onto THEM and expending massive amounts of energy trying to stop an applecart without a horse from rolling downhill.

Step aside and let it go.

song...it's a terrible thing to lose the person that we promised our life to. If you are like me, you probably talked about laying your weary bones down next to her. You envisioned a future and getting gray and old together.

It hurts to see that dashed to bits. But..it's even more painful to hold on, grovel, beg and plead when the other person just doesn't see it as you do. That...that..is the hardest thing to do. To look at an old wedding or family photo on the wall...and ...well..it's incomprehensible to us how that is NOT there anymore. We are still in the moment...still in the photo...still in the marriage. They, sadly, are not.

We can't impose our integrity...compassion...love...commitment...ONTO THEM. They must do this themselves.

One of the earliest quotes I had on my thread from nearly 3 years ago was a quote from a priest. I don't recall who posted it on my thread..or..if it is still here in one of the forums, but, it states that we don't beg, plead, cry, etc...to get them to marry us, so, why do we do it when they decide to leave???

I am NOT a counselor song...nor am I psychologist.....nor a social worker. I am....man, like you, who is facing the loss of his spouse and the loss of 50% of his time with his kids. What I can tell you is the basics:
-you can't change her
-you can't talk sense into her
-you can't control her

Song...turn away from 'the struggle' and turn towards you and the kids. If there was something you didn't like about yourself, or, if there was a weakness in the marriage that shouldn't be have been...or...some behavior that was less than 'alpha male', then...change it and grow.

As men, we all get 'clarity' when we use, as we say in the field of medicine, our retrospectoscope. We lived and effected our marriages with the tools we had at the time. This, my friend, is a lesson in life, not a failure.

Forgive yourself...grow...

FIB