Retrouvaille saved me - AN #3

[Sara]

I think you've latched onto a real truth here.No wonder marriage is so hard.

[AnotherNightmare]

Our Dialogue session last night has kept me wondering throughout the day. The question was about something of our past we need to care of so it will not project on our R. My W wrote that she would have to take care of her feelings of guilt. If she did something because she felt guilty, she would not do what she really wanted. Of course, there was more about how she felt telling me that, but the feelings part we handled OK, and there was not anything that surprised me.

When we started talking about it, I immediately thought she was referring to me when she mentioned feelings of guilt, because that was one of the breakthrough revelations I had at the Retro weekend. I basically operated the same way my mother is still operating, playing the martyr and trying to make other people feel guilty for what I/she have been doing for them. So I asked her if she was referring to her family of origin or our marriage.

She responded "my family origin". They taught me a way of life, e.g. to not get a D, and I feel guilty if I choose a different way. I moved on to the feelings part of the Dialogue, but have been thinking about this comment.

I personally have no experience with it, but does this sound like MLC? Questioning everything you have grown up with and lived with so far?

It does not really matter for my personal healing process, but I am still trying to understand what she really meant.

A few weeks ago, she made another comment that really confused me and put the thought of MLC into my head for the first time. She went to a 25-year high school reunion in Germany in September. (Just a comment: she did not meet OM there, as I initially thought, but they connected later when the address list was distributed.) She told me that during those days with her old classmates she felt like herself for the first time. She was not the wife, not the mother, just the girl she used to be. Again, is that MLC?

If it is MLC, any recommendations on how I should behave and treat her?

I value any comments, especially from the female community.

AN

[Sara]

I think the feelings are pretty typical. I'd love to go back and be that college student again with a universe of opportunities for what my future would be. It takes a level of maturity to understand that there is no going back. The other doors are closed. We are who we are today, no matter how vibrant the memories of who we were.

[breakaway]

Hi AN..

Just my opinion, but I don't think it sounds like MLC..it sounds like someone who truly feels she has lost her true Self in being who she's "supposed" to be, to please her family of origin, and her family now.

As you have been able to admit that you did engage in emotional abuse over the marriage (with your own FOO issues)...she has issues that influenced her to accept that, and if it was a walking on eggshells relationship, then she wasn't EVER being herself. I realized this year...that H doesn't even have to be here for me to second guess myself...like if it's okay to take a nap or not when I'm really tired. I realized that "normal" people probably make that decision on how tired they are, not if it's "okay."

It's also my personal opinion that a lot of people who are accused of MLC...are people who finally hit the wall after spending their lives ignoring themselves and pleasing others. One day..you can't do it anymore. Then everyone thinks you're "crazy" and wants you to go back to the person they "know."

I was so committed to the idea of the noble understanding sacrificial wife...that would never do anything for her self, that one day, the right person paid the right kind of attention to me and I instead jumped to the total other end of the spectrum and had an affair! Then I had to say, who the hell AM I?

I too am struggling over guilt about whether or not to stay in my marriage...the TRUTH for me is that if I had "permission" from God, my family, my kids, whatever, I would go. Through Al Anon I am learning to make my own decisions. Then even if I stay, it will be because I actually DECIDED to, instead of staying out of guilt or responsibility. Which is not to say we don't have responsibilities and marriage isn't work...but when there is the history you guys have...I don't think this sounds like someone who just wishes they could be young again, oh, don't we all?

I don't want to be young again...but I'd sure like to be the WAY I once was...a person with dreams and ideas that she wasn't afraid to act on, a person who made her own destiny. Not a person who wonders if it's okay to take a nap.

[AnotherNightmare]

Thank you, Sara and breakaway, for the quick responses. I guess I wanted to make sure I am not dealing with another component. In the end, it probably would not really matter or change what I need to do for myself.

There was something else we talked about last night when I brought up my martyr behavior. She thought a martyr was a victim as opposed to someone who sacrifices themselves for a higher purpose (or in the case of a R: blames his/her S if there is no return for the sacrifice). After we discussed for a few minutes, I realized where her confusion was coming from. In German, the words victim and sacrifice are the same.

I believe at this point that she likes to think of herself as the victim. I am not debating whether or not she was the victim of my abusive behavior, but I kind of sense she enjoys the convenience of being the victim. I like what you, breakaway, said in the other thread about being the target rather than the victim. The unfortunate thing is I cannot help her with that. The only thing I can do to be as compassionate as possible to support her healing process.

[breakaway]

I believe at this point that she likes to think of herself as the victim. I am not debating whether or not she was the victim of my abusive behavior, but I kind of sense she enjoys the convenience of being the victim.

She may be enjoying the validation that comes from finally being recognized as the victim.

I'll give you a little 2x4 "tap" for a small red flag I see..using the words "enjoy" and "convenience" to me implies a bit of anger still...like maybe...she's getting away with something. I mean, is it really that "convenient" to be the victim? Is it really enjoyable?

And really, maybe the MLC question does too...like what's wrong with her? Can we blame a MLC? Can we blame her enjoying this convenience of being a victim? Can we blame another component?

I'm not saying that to offend you, just to warn you about the old thought processes worming their way back in...as you are still in the very beginning of this new process. And I commend you for working at it as you are!

I am also working on what to blame!...alcoholism? family background? personality disorder? I liked your comment In the end, it probably would not really matter or change what I need to do for myself. I think I need to adopt that.

P.S. I feel for you having an actual English language barrier on top of the man/woman language barrier!!

[AnotherNightmare]

I'll give you a little 2x4 "tap" for a small red flag I see..using the words "enjoy" and "convenience" to me implies a bit of anger still...like maybe...she's getting away with something. I mean, is it really that "convenient" to be the victim? Is it really enjoyable?

You are right about that. There is still the old part in me that is thinking if she just did this or that, everything would be OK. Bad thought. Need to hit myself for that with a 2x4. It makes me feel powerless and I start blaming her for that. So thank you for the catch!

I need to stop analyzing her behavior, her problems and her role. All I need to do is try to look at things from her side, try to figure out what it is like to be in her shoes, so I can show her that I understand. There is a fine line, and I need to be very vigilant not to cross it, at least not too often.

I'm not saying that to offend you, ...

No offense taken. I wish I could catch myself doing and thinking this stuff as easily. It just means there is still a lot of work ahead of me.

P.S. I feel for you having an actual English language barrier on top of the man/woman language barrier!!

Well, we are both German. And we speak German at home. So my issue is rather that the books we read are English, Retrouvaille was in English, and I need to translate what she says (or I say) when I post it here. Because I work and she is a SAHM, I speak English all day long, and I would say that after more than 11 years in this country, I am more comfortable speaking English than German.

[DownNotOut...yet]

Just my opinion, but I don't think it sounds like MLC..it sounds like someone who truly feels she has lost her true Self in being who she's "supposed" to be, to please her family of origin, and her family now.

As you have been able to admit that you did engage in emotional abuse over the marriage (with your own FOO issues)...she has issues that influenced her to accept that, and if it was a walking on eggshells relationship, then she wasn't EVER being herself. I realized this year...that H doesn't even have to be here for me to second guess myself...like if it's okay to take a nap or not when I'm really tired. I realized that "normal" people probably make that decision on how tired they are, not if it's "okay."

It's also my personal opinion that a lot of people who are accused of MLC...are people who finally hit the wall after spending their lives ignoring themselves and pleasing others. One day..you can't do it anymore. Then everyone thinks you're "crazy" and wants you to go back to the person they "know."

I was so committed to the idea of the noble understanding sacrificial wife...that would never do anything for her self, that one day, the right person paid the right kind of attention to me and I instead jumped to the total other end of the spectrum and had an affair! Then I had to say, who the hell AM I?

I too am struggling over guilt about whether or not to stay in my marriage...the TRUTH for me is that if I had "permission" from God, my family, my kids, whatever, I would go. Through Al Anon I am learning to make my own decisions. Then even if I stay, it will be because I actually DECIDED to, instead of staying out of guilt or responsibility. Which is not to say we don't have responsibilities and marriage isn't work...but when there is the history you guys have...I don't think this sounds like someone who just wishes they could be young again, oh, don't we all?

I don't want to be young again...but I'd sure like to be the WAY I once was...a person with dreams and ideas that she wasn't afraid to act on, a person who made her own destiny. Not a person who wonders if it's okay to take a nap.

Hey Breakaway, a lot of times I find myself perceiving an angry, anti-male tone to your posts and hold my tongue...that said, this post is one of the best I've read, fantastic. Should be in a book somewhere. I think a lot of MLC are wrongly tagged. I also think about 90% of the spouses out there could wind up in affairs. Without the proper care and feeding of a marriage it just takes the right person at the right time.

[breakaway]

Hey Breakaway, a lot of times I find myself perceiving an angry, anti-male tone to your posts and hold my tongue...that said, this post is one of the best I've read, fantastic. Should be in a book somewhere. I think a lot of MLC are wrongly tagged. I also think about 90% of the spouses out there could wind up in affairs. Without the proper care and feeding of a marriage it just takes the right person at the right time.

Well, Down, sometimes I am angry...;) I am not anti-male as I get accused of sometimes, just anti-jerk, and also anti-abuse-apologist. Guys in general, I pretty much like.

You want to know what's sad...I went from being a noble understanding sacrificial wife to being a noble understanding sacrificial mistress. I think I have a sign on my forehead...he saw me coming from a MILE away.

Anyway...the best thing that could have happened from meeting the OM was it made some of my "issues" a little more clear to me. Love me enough and I'll give away the store. Then you don't even have to love me at all, because I'm an idiot. A very understanding idiot. Noooo boundaries.

But I'm learning.

[DownNotOut...yet]

You know what's sad? Understanding sacrificial mistress sounds so hot. (ducking the anti-jerk baton)