Pearl..I totally agree that it is a nice feeling to have some control over your sitch my friend!! That's very smart to wait until YOU feel ready to take the next step, whatever that may be!
I hear you on the anger and think you have every right to be and it's sort of like JD's sitch in that we've all been like "wait to see if the actions back up the words"..so you are so smart to just watch and think and mull things over
Hope you have a good night's rest!
Tawnya
Me:39 H:40 D18/S12 M20/T21 Bomb 10/11/08 One Two Three Four
I do need to get to bed since I'm still short from last night. As are you...what are you doing up??
Anyway, the question I'm really pondering right now is if I should tell him the words mean nothing without action or if this is just something he should understand and do (and if he doesn't then that's telling). Not sure.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
Anyway, the question I'm really pondering right now is if I should tell him the words mean nothing without action or if this is just something he should understand and do (and if he doesn't then that's telling). Not sure.
No. Tell him nothing about what he needs to do. This is something that he should understand. Don't do his work for him.
I would prefer to see you give me the whole letter (book) he wrote to you. It will give me more of the feel of what to do and what he is really thinking. Sometimes what you feel are the highlights are not the whole story. It doesn't matter how long it is because it is more important to know the whole context.
Let me know. This is good. It certainly doesn't surprise me. I have been trying to tell both men and women on this site that standing strong and showing that you will not tolerate sharing with another person works like a charm to get the WS to come back and give you your power and self esteem back.
I will be back to give you some advice on what to say to him in your response. You seem to be in the driver's seat. Don't give that up easily.
I am the love of his life and he doesn't want to lose me.
Perfect. He is coming around quite nicely. Just what I expected.
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He's been a complete ass and is willing to do whatever it takes to make it up to me.
Excellent again. He is now willing. Notice that you have done the exact opposite of what most on this site do. You have let go. You kicked him to the curb. You have been acting like a WS does. Notice ahd remember what works. He has offered all of this without one bit of pursuit or hanging in there from you. The reason he has turned around it YOU and what YOU have done the moment you kicked him out.
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He promises to never lie to me again so here's the truth:
WARNING WARNING WARNING... Do NOT believe this statement. This is the statement you need to make him work to prove to you. Promises are cheap.. Especially from a liar. Once a liar.......
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He thought if he brought up critical issues in the R (sex) it might cause me to doubt things and leave him; he was afraid to lose me so didn't want to rock the boat
BOLOGNA... He is blaming YOU that he couldn't or wouldn't be honest. Do NOT fall for this nonsense. He is lying here right after he said he wouldn't lie. This is another thing you need to call him on. He is telling you it is your fault that he wasn't honest... (Get real)
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He's bothered by me not working because it would help me establish my own life, resented having to work long, stressful hours to support our lifestyle while I was being lazy, uncomfortable when coworkers asked about my job search and he didn't have a response as to why a "smart childless young adult is just sitting home"
I would agree with him on that point. I would also question this issue with a woman I was living with and why she didn't work and would wonder if she was lazy. He has a point on this comment.
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And of course, everyone's favorite subject...the OW
Do NOT believe a WORD of what he says about the OW. Not a word.
Why? Some could be true, some is a lie. It isn't worth the effort to figure the fact from the fiction. It will only drive you crazy. He will now be re-writing history on how it happened no matter what really happened. You need to show him the same thing you have been showing him.
And that is that you don't care what happened in the past, but that you "have decided" that you will not be with someone who lies, cheats or someone who doesn't communicate.
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He thinks I am his best friend, no one knows him like I do.
List of things fun things/special memories from the past
Good. He is acting like a BS does on this site. He is now saying and doing all the things the betrayed do when they are trying to get their spouse back. This is good.
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He was wrong to say we have nothing in common. I was right, there will always be something new to enjoy together. If I truly feel that he is not my best friend then he wishes me well.
Quite the tune changer now huh? How funny.
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He has learned that he needs to communicate to have a successful R. He is committed to tell me everything from now on.
Suddenly MR. Honest and Mr. Communicator huh? You tried and tried to get him to communicate and be honest, and once you quit trying to communicate and to have honesty, he suddenly wants it... You will need to say to him in your response to him that "he is trying to be someone they aren't" (that comment always works wonders) and "you are only doing this to get me back and things will then go back to the same old ways we had"...
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After 8 years he things it deserves the effort to see if we can work it out (points out I said this exact thing to him but he didn't listen and I was right). He wants to back to MC because he doesn't want it to end like this. If I want to move on after MC it would help give me better peace of mind.
You will need to tell him that you have "already" moved on and that MC didn't work before so why would it work now. He lied then, so why wouldn't he lie now.......
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He is committed to doing everything in his power to make it up to me. He is asking for the chance he wouldn't give me two months ago and hopes I am the better person and am willing to give it. He loves me and doesn't want to lose the life we've built.
Wonderful... You are in great shape here. I must remind you that I am on here to help save relationships. Looks like you have the opportunity to save yours. The key here is in making sure that you know HOW to save it and make it better than before. You need to get him to make these changes on his own. He can't make them in one week or in a great letter. You accomplish that by doing what you have been doing.
First thing you need to tell him should be something regarding the OW. I will show you how to bring that up and what to say later today.
All in all.. YOU are in great shape here for a reconcilliation.
I will leave you in Gucci's more-than-capable hands as to the particulars, since his advice is playing out precisely as you want it to (and as he predicted). But I just wanted to say this:
If this goes according to "script" (and they usually do), then not only would I agree with whoever said that your BF has NOT told the OW that he's trying to reconcile with you, but that he is PURPOSELY going to try to move Heaven and Earth to make sure that at least ONE of the two "dishes" stays spinning on the end of his two "sticks."
I think he's terrified of losing BOTH of you (which of course is what he really deserves), he KNOWS he needs to end it forever with OW, but he's afraid to do so unless he knows you'll be there waiting for him.
Unh-uh -- doesn't work that way. He has to burn THAT boat behind him, FIRST, as the price to even get to play the hand with you.
You're in a tremendous position of strength here. Play your remaining cards wisely.
- Puppy, who just mixed his poker and his naval metaphors
LOLOL {{{PDT}}} and only YOU could mix metaphors that smoothly
{{{Pearl}}} I agree that Gucci is always right on about stuff..sad but true LOLOL..and sounds like you already KNOW that both he and PDT are right about the OW bridge has to be burnt first before you would/should even talk to him LOL!
Yeah..I was up late again last night talking to a friend that needed to talk which is totally fine..would rather do that than sleep any day!! I got to sleep in a bit tho..so I'm good..how about you?!
Tawnya
Me:39 H:40 D18/S12 M20/T21 Bomb 10/11/08 One Two Three Four
Here is the 3+ page letter in its entirety at Gucci's request. All the spelling, grammar and punctuation is his! Feel free to skip it if the highlights were enough for you.
Let me start out by saying I love you and think you are the love of my life and don't want to lose you.
I've been a complete ass over the last couple of months and want to do everything I can do to make it up to you. I have lied to you and promise to never do it again. Sometimes I have purposely lied to you and other times, I think I have been lying to myself to try to come up with reasons why I thought our relationship wasn't working. The following is the truth about what I have been feeling/thinking/going through and in now way is it an excuse or good reason for what I have done - it is just what I have been feeling - neither right or wrong, but I need to tell you and you deserve to know.
Sex life (and history) - I think this is something I've been open with lately and communicating the hurt it has caused so I won’t go into detail again. But I think it helps explain why I couldn't talk to you about my feelings (issues). I thought that if I talked about critical issues in our relationship, it might cause you to doubt things and leave me. I think it started back when we were talking about our sex life and you said "if you don't like it, leave." As I said, I loved you too much and was afraid to lose you, so I didn't bring up the issue anymore. There would be times while we were living in AK that you would say "I'll just pack up Buttercup [car] and Weatherby [cat] and I will drive back down to Seattle." I never quite knew how serious you were. I guess this made me hesitant to bring up serious matters. I guess I didn't want to rock the boat.
Job: Another thing that was bothering me is the job thing, but I think we've talked about it. I'm not sure why it exactly bothered me. It probably because of three things: 1)it would help you establish a life of your own - different friends and experiences and hopefully you would enjoy yourself more here in Denver 2)I felt mad that I had to work a lot of hours and go through a lot of stress to support our lifestyle and build a retirement for us and you seemed to be just sitting back and enjoying it (I know this isn't necessarily the case, but it is just the way I felt sometimes) and 3)I just felt uncomfortable when everyone asked me how your job search was going and when you are going to get a job and such. I know it was not their concern, but maybe it was the same reason it bothers me - why is a smart childless young adult just sitting home? It seems kind of odd now as I write this, but it did bother me.
I think this leads into why we haven't had much to talk about - I'm not that much of a talker, but I know I've been better in the past and need to be better about communicating about everyday things now. I think part of it was my [accounting software project] job. I've been in so many stupid meetings that I think were such a waste of time I just didn't want to talk about it and at the same time under a lot of stress to get things done. I've missed having our work to talk about, you always seemed to have better stories or more interesting things going on (and was better at communicating it) than I did. Like I said, I need to work on it, but I think it will also help now that I'm moving to a new project. If you haven't heard, I'm going to be one of the project managers to centralize Accounting/AP/Payroll/Purchasing/Tax into Denver. I think this is going to be a lot more interesting than working on the Oracle project and will be more excited to share.
As I'm reading what I writing, I don't know why I reacted so poorly lately....
And to the more difficult subject to write about, but you deserve to know everything:
You asked once - "Why her?" Here is how it started. A couple of times during the summer (two that I can remember) I would go out to happy hour and she would be there also. Most people go home after a couple drinks, but we stayed and talked. Mostly about her dating life or just random chit chat. It was never anything flirtatious or anything, just having a good time over beers. And I felt comfortable talking with her. That is how we started becoming friends. then we had the rafting trip - you went to bed early the first night and I stayed up late and partied with the rest of the group, we just had fun playing Jenga and drinking, again nothing serious, just becoming closer friends. Anyway, halfway through the bowling season, she started hanging out with guys for drinks afterwards and then we starting talking more at the same time, this is when I wondering what was going on with me and you. So, thinking I needed a third party to talk to, I was talking to her a lot more about us or at other times, just someone to go have a beer with, have fun, and try to take my mind off of things. We starting going out for beers more then we should have and starting texting and you know where that ended up.
Thanksgiving.
Unfortunately, the night at the bar after you left, J and J [female former coworkers] gave me an earful of "You guys are so different - I can't believe your together, etc..." This clouded my thinking the following weeks and reinforced what I thought was a problem. (hence the one point I focused on in the book [Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay]) Looking back, I should never have listened to what they were saying - all they could comment on was what they saw at a distance, they have know way of knowing what we really have in common. Also, I think they were a bit mad at you ever since the trip to AK. I think you commented to them that they were my friends, not yours or something like that. So, I think that also made them a bit jaded.
After Thanksgiving, at one point I told OW I could not communicate or see her again, and I was holding firm to it. But you were still going out with friends without saying anything and then on a Sunday you went out to watch football without inviting me - I felt like you moved on (stupid thought, but what I felt at the moment). That is the day I first went to [bar B] because I didn't think you wanted me to go to [sports bar C]. I went by myself and intended to be by myself the whole time. But after awhile I was stupid and texted OW to see if she wanted to stop by for a bit. She did, but only for about a half hour. This is how we started hanging out again.
Short of unrelated, but I've think I've always missed having someone else to go have a couple of beers with since S [best friend] got married and moved away - just a good friend to chat with. I think E and R filled this roll for awhile in AK, but I never found this person in CO until I started hanging out with OW - obviously not a good choice - woman and single, but that is what happen.
I think this helps explain a lot of what I've been feeling and I think you need to know. This whole thing started from me not wanting to talk, just making up my mind that it was broke and there was no way to fix it. That is how I approached the conversations - it is too late and the only answer is "it is not working."
Yes, I cheated on you and there is nothing I can do about it now except promise it will never happen again and do everything in my power to help you trust me again.
I also need you to know you are my best friend. No one else knows me like you do and enjoys all the things we do such as:
Walks through the Garden District Buying Zeus his first earring Reading the paper on the patio on Sunday mornings Dancing at the Grand Hotel Breakfast at Pete's Watching Baby dance on every hotel bed she gets a chance to Belly Bopping Watching Football on Sundays Trying new restaurants Just watching you as you sleep in the car next to me Watching men throw heavy things Old houses Open Houses Scottish Breakfast These are just a few of the things, there are many more.
I know I said we have nothing in common, but obviously I was wrong. I think we have so many things we enjoy together and could have many more in the future. To use your words, “we will always find something new to enjoy together” – or something like that If you truly feel that I’m not your best friend (excluding recent experiences) then you are going in the right direction and I will live with that and wish you the best and hope you have a happy life.
This experience has taught me that I can’t keep things to myself and bottled up. I need to share and communicate to have a truly successful relationship. I am committed to tell you everything I am feeling even though it may cause issues, but I now Know it needs to be done.
I love you! I am truly sorry for the hurt I have caused will do anything to help you trust me once again. After eight years, I think it deserves the effort to see if we can work things out (I know – I didn’t listen to this before, but you were right!) I would very much like to go to counseling again and get the help we need. I think we need honest open dialogue (meaning me) and I think [Marriage Counselor] would help with that. I don’t want to end it like this and even if you do feel the need to move on after counseling – it can only help give you better piece of mind. I am committed to do everything in my power to make this up to you. I am asking for the chance I wouldn’t give you two months ago and can only hope you are the better person and is willing to give it.
I love you and don’t want to lose you or the life we have built.
I think his letter is sincere, and I think he still loves you.
I also think he's weak right now (maybe always has been?) and his letter is full of self-excuses for his own poor choices, and that would be a major concern of mine going forward, if I were you.
It's also a bit alarming (and telling) that in 1,800 words, nowhere does he say that he has ENDED IT with OW, once and for all, or what he's willing to do in that regard (transparency) to earn back your trust. As I said in my previous post, I don't think he even has.
THAT is where it has to start, in my opinion. But before even THAT, you need to determine if you want him back, and unfortunately we can't answer that for you. To me, he sounds like a good guy, and he obviously loves you. I just think he's a WEAK guy, and at this age, tigers rarely change their stripes too much.
I can't remember: was there any prior infidelity with him, either with you or a previous relationship of his?
I recommend that you take out the following quote and email him back. Put the quote about how he said he will never lie to you again in the email or letter. NOW is the time to vent to him and let him have some idea of how angry this has made you... NOW...
Do NOT tell him what you are thinking or if you will reconcile. First let him tell you about OW and also why he will never do this again.
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I have lied to you and promise to never do it again.
Here is an example of how you want to come across to him. This should pull out from him what is happening with the OW. It doesn't matter what is going on with them right now, but you still want to come across as that you know he is still with her and hasn't told her the truth either... Then you let him have it for promising how honest he will always be.. while he is still being dishonest with the OW... If he is truly wanting honesty and making changes, then he will get your drift and dump her.
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Dear Tunechanger (exbf), Since you are never going to lie to me again, what is the reason you are still with the OW if you love me so much? Going to keep her hanging on to see if I take you back before you tell her the truth? Or are you now lying to her like you have all along to me? Or are you still with her because it is "easier?"
I wonder if you are now going to try to be someone you aren't. NOW you say you will be honest. NOW you say you will communicate. NOW you say you lied.
It wasn't who you were when we were together before. I want someone who isn't trying to be someone they aren't. I want to be with someone who can and wants to communicate and doesn't have to work at being honest, but is an honest person by nature. I want someone that I trust. I no longer trust you. You haven't even broken up with OW and here you are doing the same thing to her and yet telling me you won't do it to me again. Do you not see how that makes you look?
He has pushed himself into a corner now by telling you he will never lie to you again. Bring that out and then hit him hard with why would he still be with the OW if he loves you so much and you are his best friend. What kind of friends do that???..... **** DO NOT tell him that he needs to get rid of her before you take him back. YOU NEED him to do it without you promising anything to him. If he dumps her without knowing whether or not you will take him back, then it shows how serious he is. If not.. Oh, well.. If he can't do it without a safety net... then you still hold the line....
