WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 4

[confusedinpa]

Do not give the control back to her because she doesn't know what she wants. Direct how things go from now on.

After we got done watching Lost last nite, she actually initiated talking. During dinner last nite, she had asked me how my appointment with my therapist went. I told her we could talk about it later that evening when the kids were in bed. She had asked almost everytime I had gone. My read on it is she is trying to understand what had happened in my past that drove some of my behaviors during our marriage. My therapist had actually encouraged that I share my past with her so I do when my wife asks. I don't talk about any of the discussions directly involving her.

After I was done talking about my past and how it resulted in "unconstructive" behavior, I asked her then what did she think. She started sharing what she felt about what I had said but then moved onto her feelings about her dad (how resentful she is that we only see him 3-4 times a year when he is only 45 minutes away). I tried to be compassionate, validate and acknowledge.

She then started to talk about her two cousins (both are under 25) and how they are divorced and really have no direction in life. She expressed frustration about what they were doing. I didn't understand why she brought that up, but I tried to make it light, by recognizing how much she has accomplished and everthing that she manages (kids, work, house, etc.) everyday. Not sure how that went over.

She then shifted to talking about how frustrated she gets with her mom. She appreciates her help, but knows that she is also "judged" by her mom when she does help. I tried to listen and be compassionate.

She then went on about how I said earlier last week that I could help when the kids are sick, but then she challenged how realistic that was. She used how yesterday I could only do the first half of the day and she still had to come back to cover the second half. She did recognize that I have different responsibilities so it is more difficult for me to do it. I just responded that "I see your point". I had wanted to argue that I had tried to work my schedule and did take the half day (something I had never done in the past), but I didn't.

Then she moved into the what happened last nite. She said it felt like I had slipped back into panic mode when I saw she was sleeping in the spare bedroom. She thought how unreasonable I was in pressing to talk and how angry she was in how I reacted and some of the things I said. She said she felt that I wasn't listening to her again nor respecting what she said and how angry she was at me.

I wound up appologizing and said something like "I should have just recognized that you had needed space and just given it to you. I see I said some unreasonable things that made you mad. I'm sorry." In the past I think I would have then gone into why I did it, but didn't. Hopefully that was the right approach. Any comments?

She then went on about how much stress she has been under between work, kids, our relationship etc. She said that when she's under stress, she just feels so drained all the time and tired. I tried to validate and acknowledge. In hindsight I then made the mistake of commenting how when I'm stressed, it actually charges me up and I need less sleep. She acknowledged and validated by saying that she sees how my mind is just going and going and going non-stop.

She then commented on my remark last nite of how we never seem to finish a conversation relative to our relationship. She expressed her views of how it's not like picking out blinds (which we did last weekend). The relationship isn't something that in 1.5 hours of discussion come up with a conclusion or a end result. She also said it's not something that she wants to talk about everyday is it's really draining. I tried to acknowledge and validate by saying "I see your point and I understand" (not sure how well that went over).

She then went on about how we've talked for about 1 to 1.5 hours tonite and it takes a lot of energy. I took that as a cue that she was getting tired so I said "It is getting late now and I see you're getting tired. Why don't we just go to bed?" She agreed. As she started to walk up stairs, I called her name as I got up. She did turn around and I gave her a kiss on the check good nite and a very light hug.

Overall, I thought it was an ok discussion/talk. Any comments/feedback?

You've got to have immense patience. Right now she's going through a MLC like my W. And you've got a good chance because she is actually at least mentioning her feelings.

It's funny that you mention mid-life crisis. That's what I felt that she was going through as well. What exasparated it was the fact that she was un-happy in our marriage. If she was happy, it might not be such a big issue. Unfortunately she is.

You don't want to solve her problems for her, just lightly guide her to the right answers without her knowing. You want her to believe that she wants to stay because she came up with the idea herself.

I think that saving the marriage is the right answer. She thinks that divorce is the lessor of the two evils (she always says she doesn't feel like she has a good choice to make). I tried to "guide" her by asking her what is so horrible about staying married. That's when she gets into the hurt/anger/resentment everytime she sees me. I'm at a loss on this one and would welcome any suggestions.

Here's an idea. Rather than doing the same old things this weekend, try doing something new and different with her and the kids. Something to get her mind off of the relationship. Shake things up a bit. I think both of you could use it.

I'm trying this idea with my W and so far it's working at making her happier. The thing is to create POSITIVE experiences while she's with you and that includes no relationship stuff.

I really liked that idea. I even brought it up last nite when she said that her mom was going to have to work this weekend so she can't watch the kids. I floated out the idea of going out for dim sum in the city - something we used to do and enjoy but haven't since our oldest was born. She liked the idea shot it down as she was afraid she would eat too much. She complained about how she's gained so much weight in the last several weeks that there are only 2 pairs of pants that she fits in now. I guess I'll just have to think of something that doesn't involve food. The problem is that it's too cold to do things outside (I know she likes outside/nature things). Any suggestions?

[confusedinpa]

I agree with stuck, don't reinforce the negative. These phrases are your friends:

"I understand"

"I can see why you would feel that way"

"That's understandable"

"That makes sense"

"You know what, you are right about that" (if it is true)

Of course, you should no longer be getting yourself in a position where she can give you the "I can't get past it" speech...but at least you will be able to respond well to it.

Spellfire,

Great suggestions! I'm going to have to have them tattoed on the back of my hand so I can remember to use them!

[confusedinpa]

There may be many reasons. Maybe she still feels the hurt. Most likely she still has not healed, i.e. she has not let go of her resentments towards you and/or your behavior. And by pursuing her, by trying to convince her otherwise, by making her think and talk about her hurt, you and your C just reinforce those resentments. She is probably not able to get closure on this. And as long as that is the case, she will not try love. The most important thing for you to understand is that she needs time and you need to give her that time. You must be patient.

I guess the part that I don't understand/see is how is she trying to "heal". Perhaps her moving to the spare bedroom is her way to do that. She had said about 4-5 weeks ago how she wanted to spend a couple of days by herself somewhere to think but didn't know how to do that. I told her I would help her do that if she wanted to but she never did. Perhaps I should take the kids with me to go visit a couple my friends. I guess that's an idea.

To tell you the truth, I still do not think that your MC sessions are very productive. It just seems to remind her of her hurt and to reinforce her resentments.

I do tend to agree about the counseling sessions with my wife. We seem to spend a lot of time in the past. I really want to ask her about retroville, but don't think the timing is quite right. What do you think?

Yes, a resentful R does not work. But you need to let go of your anger and resentments as well. If I read how often you write this about your W, it seems to me you resent her for not letting go of the hurt. If she is resentful, you are most likely, too. Compassionate is actually the opposite of resentful. Or at a minimum you cannot be compassionate and resentful at the same time. If you are not able to see her side of the story - and you prove that over and over again with what you write here - you are not compassionate. If you are not compassionate, you are probably resentful or angry. That is what you need to work on.

I am begining to understand what you're saying about compassionate. The compassionate/empathy thing has always been a struggle for me. I have shut that down over such a long period of time that it's hard for me to do. After I'm done with the No More Mr. Nice Guy book, I will read the Love without Hurt book. Hopefully that will help. I do appreciate any insight that you can share with me though. It looks like you have given it alot of thought/soul searching.

Thanks for all your help!

[confusedinpa]

Don't worry so much about the "right" words to say, focus instead on feeling her pain. Try to imagine what it might be like to feel unable to, or afraid to let go of the pain. Perhaps you have felt something similar in your life. In your previous thread you said:

From what my therapist has been working with me, in my life, everytime something good happens, it had always followed by a steep negative. That's been the story of my life since elementary school. Because of that, my therapist thinks I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop so I'm afraid to really enjoy the moment.

I actually shared that with my wife yesterday. We talked about how shortly after we were married how she had been diagnosed with brain lessions. We went through about 6-9 months of testing and CAT scans, etc. Fortunately, it came up as non-issue. She said that she can see how going through that it caused me to be scared of losing her. I did agree with her as I was. I then went into how shortly after that we decided to start our family. I told her it was something that I knew we both wanted but I was scared. I was scared since my father left when I was only 1 month old, that I never knew what being a good father was suppose to be so I was scared. I see now that was a fear I know I should have shared with her. Part of my therapy/growing has made me realize that fear isn't weakness, but sharing and addressing the fear is a strength. Hiding the fear is not a healthy approach.

Part of me is thinking that what's been missing in our marriage is the emotional connection where I've been vulnerable to her with sharing my feelings. I'm torn whether to do that now, as most of my current feelings are related to what is going on with our relationship. So I know I shouldn't go there. Perhaps I'll just share the emotions I had during our marriage that I didn't. Or will the 2x4's come out to tell me to stop trying to share my emotions as the goal is to get her to share hers?

I'm thinking about sharing mine as a way to get her to share hers....

OK - please don't smack me too hard....

I agree with AnotherNightmare. If you are feeling frustrated with your wife for not letting go of the pain, your frustration will come through to her no matter what you say. Conversely, if you can genuinely feel compassion for her pain, your caring will come through to her even if your words are clumsy.

My wife has commented about how she wonders if my sudden "changes" are just a desperate act to get her to stop the divorce. I know it's only been 8 weeks (actually 6 weeks for my 180), but she feels it's so sudden, that it can't be real. I'm sure its because she senses my frustration so it seems to conflict with what I'm trying to do with my 180.

[confusedinpa]

Why not give her the rose and just say..."I decided to listen to Kenny Rogers." Unlike men, women don't need everything spelled out to them, lol. She'll get it.

I actually wound up doing this yesterday on my way home.

She had text/called me several times in the afternoon stressing about work and being home with my youngest one was being difficult while he was sick. She couldn't get any of her work done as he was so needy. I had asked if she wanted to order out for dinner so she could get a break. She said pizza would be fine. So when I picked up the pizza, I picked up the rose.

When I got home, I put the pizza and rose on the kitchen island. When she saw the rose, I handed it to her and said "I know you had a really stressful day today, so since I've been listening to Kenny Rogers so much lately, I picked this up for you."

You were right that she got it right away - guess women really do get it...

Anway, I think she smilled, but she gave me a light hug and I kissed her on the check. She then put the rose in with the bundle that I had given her last Friday (I had our boys give it to her as their B'Day present).

[confusedinpa]

Got a text today from my wife that our youngest was really grumpy at drop off so that was stressful for her and she's really busy at work.

Sounds like it's going to be a lovely evening tonite ; p

Makes me want to schedule a late meeting so I won't be home until the kids go to bed : )

Whatever....

[AnotherNightmare]

I guess the part that I don't understand/see is how is she trying to "heal".

She may be trying, but I get the impression you do not let her heal. You pursue her constantly, take her temperature, do not give her space, that stops her right in her tracks. Think of the emotional wound as a physical wound on your arm or leg. If you keep scratching it, it breaks open and the healing process starts fresh. If you keep scratching open her emotional wounds, the same thing is happening there. That is probably why she cannot heal.

I really want to ask her about retroville, but don't think the timing is quite right. What do you think?

It is very hard to say what the right timing is. I would certainly wait for a moment that she is not in WAW mode. Show her some compassion about something she complains about. Let her start a conversation and when she seems to be really open and willing to listen to you, tell her that you found this website, ordered the brochure and thought it might be worth trying. The key here is to really wait for the right situation when your chance of getting a positive answer is the highest. So be patient. Give her a lot of space, so she can actually develop the right mood for this conversation.

Regarding compassion I posted something on my own thread a few days ago that became clearer to me when I read "Love without hurt". Let me repeat that here:

A lot of people here say focus on yourself, because you cannot control your W (or any other people for that matter). No question, this is one of the most importance pieces of advice you get here. But I always wondered why this is so important. I finally found the explanation in Stosny's book, or let's say it became crystal clear to me.

As long as I focus on my W and try to change her, I feel powerless and inadequate, because I realize time and time again I cannot accomplish anything this way. I then start to feel resentful towards her and probably act accordingly or even worse, I become abusive. Anyone who is treated like that becomes resentful as well, and as an end result our M will go to he!!.

Even though I have known for quite some time, I am now more determined than ever to change myself. And with any luck, something that Gandhi once said becomes true for my M: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

[spellfire]

Sounds like it's going to be a lovely evening tonite ; p

Don't set yourself up for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of "here we go again", tell yourself "no matter what happens, I can handle it".

Makes me want to schedule a late meeting so I won't be home until the kids go to bed : )

Whatever....

Stressful times are an opportunity. Do not run and hide from them, it is your chance to show her that you can be her rock.

When the the going gets tough, the tough get going. By tough, I mean calm, understanding, and are not affected by anyone elses mood, least of all hers.

"Her time to whine is my time to shine"

PS: What do you think of NMMNG so far? Do you see yourself in any of the pages?

[MrBond]

[/quote]She then went on about how I said earlier last week that I could help when the kids are sick, but then she challenged how realistic that was. She used how yesterday I could only do the first half of the day and she still had to come back to cover the second half. She did recognize that I have different responsibilities so it is more difficult for me to do it. I just responded that "I see your point". I had wanted to argue that I had tried to work my schedule and did take the half day (something I had never done in the past), but I didn't.

That shows her confusion. She's trying to either see if you can handle the kids if a D goes through or is trying to find her own sense of worth in the relationship to see if she is "needed". Obviously if you D you'll have to take care of the kids yourself why does she care? If she brings that up again just say, well if we D then I'll adapt. And I'll be fine. Be confident when you say this. Again, this is why when my W and I physically separated, it taught me that I could stand alone and I grew immensely.

She then started to talk about her two cousins (both are under 25) and how they are divorced and really have no direction in life. She expressed frustration about what they were doing. I didn't understand why she brought that up, but I tried to make it light, by recognizing how much she has accomplished and everthing that she manages (kids, work, house, etc.) everyday. Not sure how that went over.

This was great. She's trying to compare herself to her cousins and you let her see the positives to build up her self-esteem. She's thinking out loud to herself that divorce is a bad thing. It's funny that our WAWs try to convince themselves that D would make life so much easier for them when it's not. Here is where your W is juggling the D in her head.

I wound up appologizing and said something like "I should have just recognized that you had needed space and just given it to you. I see I said some unreasonable things that made you mad. I'm sorry."

Good job on this. to.You let her vent and showed her you were listening.

She then commented on my remark last nite of how we never seem to finish a conversation relative to our relationship. She expressed her views of how it's not like picking out blinds (which we did last weekend). The relationship isn't something that in 1.5 hours of discussion come up with a conclusion or a end result. She also said it's not something that she wants to talk about everyday is it's really draining.

Again here she is telling you to stop bringing up the relationship every day and that she needs time. She feels you want her to change NOW and that you want an immediate fix. To a degree I agree with her. In your posts you often say "I don't see why..." Exactly. YOU don't see why she thinks the way she does, so stop trying. You are not her. Let her do it in her own timeframe. Concentrate on having fun with her as if she was a new girlfriend.

I think that saving the marriage is the right answer. She thinks that divorce is the lessor of the two evils (she always says she doesn't feel like she has a good choice to make). I tried to "guide" her by asking her what is so horrible about staying married. That's when she gets into the hurt/anger/resentment everytime she sees me.[quote]

This is a big NO NO. "Saving the Marriage" IS NOT the answer. It is a goal. It is the destination and not the path to it. That's why when you tried to ask her what is so horrible about staying married, she got pissed and reacted with the hurt/anger/resentment excuse. That's her defensive mechanism. Her emotional shield when she thinks you're not LISTENING to her. Use that as a cue. If she brings up that excuse, that means she feels you didn't understand what she was saying just before. Now that you know that, do some verbal jiu-jitsu and turn around what you said into something positive. This is a great "tell" for her.

Overall the night seemed to have gone very well. She opened up quite a bit and it's obvious she's reaching out to you.

In terms of doing something different, if you're stuck indoors, why don't you do a little play/pretend with the kids like pretending you're somewhere exotic like on LOST then when your W sees you having fun with them, have her join in. Or play a board/video game altogether and pump up the fun aspect. You can even do some interactive art project where everyone gets "dirty" like painting. You just need an activity to shake things up.

If you can swing it, take a trip out to Hawaii and do the LOST tour they have out here. Yes I'm in Hawaii and actually live next to some of the actors.

The one thing about people in MLC I've learned is that it's like a second puberty. Men evaluate things based on material need (fast cars, young girls, etc.). Women will evaluate their MLC in terms of emotion and feelings (career, future with kids, romance, etc.) Right now your W is re-evaluating everything in her life which shows in your posts. You're not going to be able to talk her out of it. But what you can do is to SHOW her the positives and build on them. Show her that the life she has really isn't as bad as she believes it is. Show her that the life she wants is right in front of her. People in MLC will only concentrate on the negatives thereby giving them that "trapped" feeling. So the only thing they know is that they want out. It's not logical.

The stages of MLC are like the stages of death (anger, depression, bargaining, etc.). You want to help her to get to the phase of "acceptance" where she accepts that the life she has is the life she wants. People in MLC only concentrate on what they DON'T want. It's not until they truly understand what they DO want that they snap out of it. Show her that the family is what she DOES want. Make her feel it.

Whew sorry this is such a long post.

[MrBond]

Okay, evidently I inadvertantly put all the quotes altogether and not before my comments. I guess you can look at the quote, then read my reply below.

Let me know if that's too confusing.

stuck