I had a good session with my therapist/our marriage counselor. She pretty much thinks that my wife can't let go of her hurt/abandoment/anger with me just like it was with her father.
My therapist doesn't think it makes any sense why she doesn't/can't let go of the hurt and try love.
We have our marriage counseling session on Monday. I'm not sure if my wife will go, but if she does, my therapist wants to try and get her to talk about letting go of hurt (or at least understand why she doesn't/can't).
My therapist did say that she feels that while we had a nuturing, caring and loving marriage, it did not feel like it was a passionate partnership. That's why she doesn't see the anger/rage that is coming from either one of us.
I guess the bottom line is that she agrees that if my wife wants to hold on to hurt/anger/resentment, my wife will never be able to actually make the marriage work.
Since there is nothing that I can do about that, my therapist echoed what others have said here as well. Focus on myself and continue to make sure I'm ok so I can still be the father I need to be for my sons.
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Who initiated the talk this morning about the DR book?
Right now she moved out of the room. That's what I had suggested to you earlier because it really screamed to me that she wanted her space. Right now you've given her all the power in the relationship and you're reacting to it all. Take that control back and just do your own thing.
In terms of the compassion issue. To show compassion is to care and "understand" through their eyes. Right now in all your postings, you mention how you can't see this or how she can't see that. Stop for a moment and put yourself in her shoes. Then when she interacts with you, see things how she does. Right now your idea of validation is more like patronizing. True validation is really understanding what she is going through and responding accordingly. This means letting her express herself without judgement. Then if she asks for your opinion, don't say "you should" say things like, "well I would". This shows that you aren't trying to "fix" her, but just what you would do. It would be up to her if she does it or not. During the conversation, repeat what she says and maybe ask a short question or two about it not her. That way she sees that you are really listening to her.
It's going to be tough at first, but keep at it. It gets easier the more you do it. This establishes trust with her which seems to be a big hurdle right now.
Stuck808,
The book got brought up as she said that she was only to read 2 pages of it before she got too tired. I tried to get her to move to a different book (i.e. 5 Languages of Love) that we had talked about and thought was interesting - just to get her off my playbook.
I know I've given her all the power in the relationship, I'm just not sure what you mean about take control back? I have read that the person who cares the least about the relationship has the most power/control. Is that what you mean?
I'm also struggling with the compassion/validation piece of it.
When she says that she can't get past the hurt/pain from the past, can you offer a suggestion on what would be compassionate/validate that?
I do agree rebuilding the trust is a big deal right now. She even said it last nite that she didn't think she could trust anyone, let alone me, with her heart again as I had hurt/broken it so badly.
I do appreciate your input. I'm really confused right now, but I know I need to pull it together before I see her when I get home tonite.
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
Right now I definitely don't think she's "cake eating" because she's been very honest and upfront with you about everything and she hasn't been a B about it. Look at the other's who are posting, they'd kill to have their W just look their way much less open up the way your W has.
So do you think it's the other thing then:
Quote:
"She could be moving out because she is opening up emotionally, and is scared - and a separate bed is just a way of limiting the influx of emotions."
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
I do agree rebuilding the trust is a big deal right now. She even said it last nite that she didn't think she could trust anyone, let alone me, with her heart again as I had hurt/broken it so badly.
My wife said the exact same thing to me, I haven't come all the way back but now she just says she has some trust issues...It's not huge but it's better than I won't ever trust you again. It just takes time, lots of time in my case.
Me:40 W: 39 T: 17 years M: 15 years S-9 D-6 D final 11/10/2009
"We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems."
"When she says that she can't get past the hurt/pain from the past, can you offer a suggestion on what would be compassionate/validate that?"
Don't bring up the conversation. Let her bring it up if she feels like it. When she does talk, imagine you are her. Nod in understanding as she's talking and ask short simple questions as she's talking but don't interrupt her. During the pauses, repeat back to her what she just said. Say things like "so you're saying that I..." This will show that you're listening and understanding. Which is what she's looking for right now. Most importantly...DO NOT offer advice.
Right now she wants to be heard and to vent. Let her keep doing it for as many times as she wants. She needs to get all these pent up feelings out of her in her way.
From understanding her point of view and letting her express those emotions, you are showing compassion. Don't be her knight in shining armor to save her, just act as if you were her deepest friend. You want to build a foundation for trust that will replace her perceived hurt from you.
Build that foundation and you'll find it easier to build a better relationship from it.
Oh and also most importantly, DO NOT touch her while she's talking. Even if you think it's a comforting touch don't do it. If she asks for a hug then give it. But let her stand alone. She's going to have to face things herself without you and that's what she's trying to do. Let her grow from it.
Also, don't initiate any touches right now. Since she physically removed herself from you, that's a sign that she wants you to back off. Again, remember the stray animal scenario. Let her come to you and when the trust is there, then do the light non-sexual touches.
Oh and in terms of the Thursday scenario, remember what I told you about alcohol lowering one's inhibitions? Well that's just what she was doing. That's why when she woke up the next morning, she felt empty. Because once the alcohol wore off, she's logically "thinking" again, so up comes the barriers again.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Don't bring up the conversation. Let her bring it up if she feels like it. When she does talk, imagine you are her. Nod in understanding as she's talking and ask short simple questions as she's talking but don't interrupt her. During the pauses, repeat back to her what she just said. Say things like "so you're saying that I..." This will show that you're listening and understanding. Which is what she's looking for right now. Most importantly...DO NOT offer advice.
What's tough for me here is that she doesn't vent after she says she's hurt.
For example, last nite, she said that she wants me to "work with her" to figure out how to move forward with a separation. She says that she has stop trying to find a reason to change her mind because she can't get past the negative feelings. That pretty much ends her "statement" everytime and she stops talking.
I try to validate/be compassionate typically by saying "I can see how you've been hurt by the things I did". Are you saying then that I should say "So you're saying that because you are still hurt/angry that you can't find a reason to change your mind."
She really doesn't vent unless we're in counseling. There in counseling I would say "I can see how when I did x it made you feel y"
I actually worried about how tonite is going to go. Our usual evenings after the kids go to bed is that we watch our show (we don't really talk) and usually do most of our talking when we're in bed. I had been trying to use that time to build some connection between us again. Now that she's moved into the spare bedroom, do I just let that communication time go then? It seems like a step backwards...
Should I ask her how she wants to handle it?
Me 41 WAW 36 S 3&7 M 10 yrs W files D 1/9/09 W moves out 4/18 Lost job 6/15 New job 7/27 Disc PA 8/10 (started Nov 2008!) Confronted 8/11 Admits PA & appologies for hurt 9/11 Lost Job 11/13
NO! Do not give the control back to her because she doesn't know what she wants. Direct how things go from now on.
"I try to validate/be compassionate typically by saying "I can see how you've been hurt by the things I did". Are you saying then that I should say "So you're saying that because you are still hurt/angry that you can't find a reason to change your mind.""
What you said above is not validation. All you're doing is reminding her of her negative feelings. You have to try to be more specific with her yet not be too pushy.
The next time she says, she's hurt or that she's been hurt in the past, rather than having her shut down at that point, just ask, "how so?" This will put the ball in her court. If she says, "you know why." then just say that you don't or that you aren't sure and just wanted to have it clarified for yourself. If she still shuts down, then don't push it. Bring the question up again when she opens up again.
Stop thinking about her as your W and wanting to fix her now. You've got to have immense patience. Right now she's going through a MLC like my W. And you've got a good chance because she is actually at least mentioning her feelings.
You don't want to solve her problems for her, just lightly guide her to the right answers without her knowing. You want her to believe that she wants to stay because she came up with the idea herself.
Here's an idea. Rather than doing the same old things this weekend, try doing something new and different with her and the kids. Something to get her mind off of the relationship. Shake things up a bit. I think both of you could use it.
I'm trying this idea with my W and so far it's working at making her happier. The thing is to create POSITIVE experiences while she's with you and that includes no relationship stuff.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I agree with stuck, don't reinforce the negative. These phrases are your friends:
"I understand"
"I can see why you would feel that way"
"That's understandable"
"That makes sense"
"You know what, you are right about that" (if it is true)
Of course, you should no longer be getting yourself in a position where she can give you the "I can't get past it" speech...but at least you will be able to respond well to it.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
She pretty much thinks that my wife can't let go of her hurt/abandoment/anger with me just like it was with her father.
My therapist doesn't think it makes any sense why she doesn't/can't let go of the hurt and try love.
There may be many reasons. Maybe she still feels the hurt. Most likely she still has not healed, i.e. she has not let go of her resentments towards you and/or your behavior. And by pursuing her, by trying to convince her otherwise, by making her think and talk about her hurt, you and your C just reinforce those resentments. She is probably not able to get closure on this. And as long as that is the case, she will not try love. The most important thing for you to understand is that she needs time and you need to give her that time. You must be patient.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
We have our marriage counseling session on Monday. I'm not sure if my wife will go, but if she does, my therapist wants to try and get her to talk about letting go of hurt (or at least understand why she doesn't/can't).
To tell you the truth, I still do not think that your MC sessions are very productive. It just seems to remind her of her hurt and to reinforce her resentments. The same goes for your IC sessions. If you keep talking about your W, you get nothing out of them. Ask your C to help you heal, to let go of your anger.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
I guess the bottom line is that she agrees that if my wife wants to hold on to hurt/anger/resentment, my wife will never be able to actually make the marriage work.
Yes, a resentful R does not work. But you need to let go of your anger and resentments as well. If I read how often you write this about your W, it seems to me you resent her for not letting go of the hurt. If she is resentful, you are most likely, too. Compassionate is actually the opposite of resentful. Or at a minimum you cannot be compassionate and resentful at the same time. If you are not able to see her side of the story - and you prove that over and over again with what you write here - you are not compassionate. If you are not compassionate, you are probably resentful or angry. That is what you need to work on.
Writing or thinking about her behavior and how it drives you crazy does not help your healing process. It actually reverses the little things you might have achieved. Stop thinking about your W, think about yourself, figure out your own feelings and try to regulate your anger, especially towards her.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
Since there is nothing that I can do about that, my therapist echoed what others have said here as well. Focus on myself and continue to make sure I'm ok so I can still be the father I need to be for my sons.
Do you truly believe that there is nothing you can do about that? You are saying it, but do you believe what you are saying? If you do, then act like you believe it.
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
In terms of the compassion issue. To show compassion is to care and "understand" through their eyes. Right now in all your postings, you mention how you can't see this or how she can't see that. Stop for a moment and put yourself in her shoes. Then when she interacts with you, see things how she does. Right now your idea of validation is more like patronizing. True validation is really understanding what she is going through and responding accordingly.
I'm also struggling with the compassion/validation piece of it.
When she says that she can't get past the hurt/pain from the past, can you offer a suggestion on what would be compassionate/validate that?
Don't worry so much about the "right" words to say, focus instead on feeling her pain. Try to imagine what it might be like to feel unable to, or afraid to let go of the pain. Perhaps you have felt something similar in your life. In your previous thread you said:
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
From what my therapist has been working with me, in my life, everytime something good happens, it had always followed by a steep negative. That's been the story of my life since elementary school. Because of that, my therapist thinks I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop so I'm afraid to really enjoy the moment.
Originally Posted By: AnotherNightmare
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
I guess the bottom line is that she agrees that if my wife wants to hold on to hurt/anger/resentment, my wife will never be able to actually make the marriage work.
you need to let go of your anger and resentments as well. If I read how often you write this about your W, it seems to me you resent her for not letting go of the hurt. If she is resentful, you are most likely, too. Compassionate is actually the opposite of resentful. Or at a minimum you cannot be compassionate and resentful at the same time. If you are not able to see her side of the story - and you prove that over and over again with what you write here - you are not compassionate. If you are not compassionate, you are probably resentful or angry. That is what you need to work on.
I agree with AnotherNightmare. If you are feeling frustrated with your wife for not letting go of the pain, your frustration will come through to her no matter what you say. Conversely, if you can genuinely feel compassion for her pain, your caring will come through to her even if your words are clumsy.
