Jayce's thread

[Jayce]

17 days till Spring. I am SO tired of being cold! Its been around 10 the past 3 days. Maybe 50 tom'w. I need to be warm!

Finished a couple more books, started on Passionate Marriage. As usual, I found what sounded interesting in the table of contents & read some of that first. Yes, I'll start at the beginning today, but the chapter on Two-choice dilemmas & Normal Marital Sadism put me in a down mood that's lasted a couple days, especially in light of H's starting a big crab & sulk Sat. nite that he did nothing to make up for on Sun. No sex either night. I've always believed he starts stuff on purpose. Either to justify not feeling like ML or make me mad so he can blame not ML on me being crabby. Smoke screen in a way.

Anyway, reading about how spouses deliberately do things to hurt each other but refuse to admit it....... The scenario of the couple's counseling experiences is waaaaaayyy over the top for anything my H would ever consent to. Even if he did, he is the king of the Clam Act. And while he'd be totally silent, scowling, surly, I'd be having a real hard time not crying.

Other than people who cry to manipulate others, most of us cry when we feel helplessness and grief.

Interesting how the author differentiates being sorry and being remorseful. I'm sorry is only that, sorry. Changing behavior after saying 'sorry' is remorse.

This book is going to take longer to read than the others. Although I expect to get insights and see where I can make behavior changes, I have to wonder how much that'll help considering H is the poster child for avoiding change at all costs. I gave him the New Male Sexuality book in late September. On Oct. 10 he was on page 24. 2 weekends ago he read it after not touching it for about a month. He read it for aboaut half an hour today (cuz he know how bummed I am?-so it'll look like he's doing something for me?)and he is up to page 302.

I asked him last week if he had any insights so far in reading it. "Not really" Uh huh. I figure he thinks the whole thing is "stupid" and none of it applies to either him or us as a couple. I'm not optimistic about anything at this point, but I guess if I'm reading yet another book it means I'm getting up off the mat again. Just don't think I have it in me to do it too many more times.

Tell me something positive, you guys who are already part way thru or done with the PM book. Is it helping you in any way? Any optimism there?

Jayce

[LG nm12]

Hi Jayce,

I read PM and LOVED it. It helped me most in understanding differentiation and how emotional fusion has played a role in all of my relationships, not just my marriage.

I felt like there was a bit of my situation in every single case. I underlined points that hit home.

The part about sorry vs. remorse... After I read that, I cried and cried because it hurt so much to think that my H wasn't compelled toward remorse all these years. Sorry just doesn't cut it. I'm over it, though, because I realize that he wasn't able to get to remorse because he couldn't possibly understand my end of it.

It is not an easy read, but it is well worth it. I plan to pick it up again and again. My H saw how eye-opening it was for me, and now he plans to read it.

I hope you get as much out of it as I did!

Lucky

[Jayce]

Lucky,
Thanks for the good reply. I'm not optimistic because adding up stuff I knew before I started all this last year and stuff I've learned from the hip-high pile of books I've read since last June hasn't gotten my H one tiny step into 'getting it' about intimacy. We've had conversations, ML more often, had emotional blow-ups and meltdowns, even a couple small breakthroughs but to him the whole thing is still evidently just a big headache and he has no intention of doing any self-exploration.

The gut shot from the book was the part where the choice is to have sex more often or be divorced. He told me last summer that I needed to be committed to a mental institution because I thought it would be great to have sex twice in one day. He said he's never done that in his life (no surprise). And, of course, he wanted a divorce. He'd already threatened divorce if I just wanted to ML once a week.

He's scared shitless is my guess. Whenever he needs to avoid answering any question (about anything, not only sex), it's always "You're trying to psychoanalyze me" as if its the worst thing anyone can do. I've always wondered just how bad whatever is in his mind really is if he's that afraid to express it.

Whatever-I just know I'm tired of his making me feel this bad. You'd think at some point he'd wake up and try to be a big boy. He'll never feel remorse, I don't think, unless he outlives me. I know Superman won't fly down and give him a head slap.

Thanks again,
Jayce

[LG nm12]

Jayce,

I know you've been on this board for a while and I'm missed a lot of your situation, so please forgive me if I ask questions that you've already hashed through.

A couple of images and ideas in your post hit home:

"The hip-high pile of books" - Does he ever read them? I'm assuming he doesn't if he isn't willing to go to C. That must make it hard. I know that my H is willing to read, but I think that it's not a "fun" endeavor for him. He works a lot, so he just wants to flop in front of the TV and eat tortilla chips and hummus when he gets home. I know that it takes a lot for him to keep his brain going even longer in the day. Anyway, the way you wrote it, it sounds like you're doing most (if not all) of the work. I hope my H doesn't get lazy, but we all know we can't control what they decide to do.

The notion of him hiding from fear and not being able to get in there. Isn't that frustrating... Because my H was so closed off, I imagined there must have been horrendous events in his past. There *might* be, but I have a hunch to doubt it. My intuition (along with all that I've been reading) tells me it's just good old-fashioned toxic shame and issues with self worth. Though he's started reading, I don't think he's gotten down to the root of it. If he had a true awakening, I would think that he would experience some pain and need to emote. Or, maybe that's just how I operate. I'm thankful that he's accepting of my quest and that he's willing to talk about it. We'll see how deep he goes into himself. I hope I hope I hope I hope I hope Oh God I hope. Even if his full awakening meant that he realizes that he doesn't want to be with me anymore, it would be a better fate for our family because he'd be able to be a happier, alive, real, connected father to our son (who then, would presumably become a greater man himself).

It sounds like your H has set his boundary with you: pushing intimacy=divorce. Is he bluffing or for real? Do you think he would be in pain if you walked over it? Do you think it would force him to love you more? Is walking too hard to even think about?

The last thought that makes me weepy... I also thought all these years that he would finally understand when I die. Us sex-starved people deserve a moment of a pity party, indeed. I don't care what hardass comes along and tells us to buck up and get over it and just take care of ourselves. To think that we have sat and systematically tried every rung of "what ifs," and couldn't see resolution until we reached the "ultimate end" as the "maybe then..."

And, you know what, even then they wouldn't understand. Not because they're dopes, but just because they are not us. No one can ever know exactly and specifically what it feels like to be another. That is why we have to learn to love ourselves and be happy "alone" in as many moments possible.

Here I sit. The furnace is kicking on, a car just drove by. I'm warm, I had a nice dinner, and I feel strong and healthy. My baby is sleeping like a lamb. I'm happy in this very simple moment.

OK. Not much of that was productive for you, but I felt compelled to connect with you. I hope a miracle (lightening, a visit from a spirit, winning the lottery, a good schmear of testosterone, whatever) happens to bring your H his spiritual awakening. I wish that every person had the blessing of waking up in their life, or re-awakening, or whatever it is. I don't think it's ever too late.

All my best,
Lucky

P.S. Every time I read your posts, I notice that you lost your daughter. Experiencing the death of a child must be worse than any anguish in the world. I'm sure you lost something of yourself, too. I'm so, so sorry.

[Jayce]

Hi, sorry I didn't respond yesterday. I got caught up in a funny on Cinco's thread. I just posted there. You might get some additional insight into my 'challenge' w/my H. I also post to Diane's thread a lot.


Does NOT want to read any books. He's taken about 5 mo. to get to p. 302 in The New Male Sexuality. He's thru all the 'relationship' 'intimacy' and 'communication' stuff. Also the anatomy & physiology. Asked him a couple weeks ago if any of it enlightened him in any way. He didn't think so. If he ever finishes it its hard to decide which one to give him next. Tempting to skip the R ones and go to the technique ones LOL. He does not have a bunch of guy friends he can talk to & would definitely not discuss wife sex w/them if he did. He doesn't read a lot to begin with. Mostly zones on TV.


He doesn't want to believe he needs to change. Doesn't want to change. Probably fears losing himself. Not being him anymore. Whatever. Been going on for over a year, big efforts since last June. I've done a lot of rants on this forum. Sometimes seems like we're doing better, sometimes not.

Thank you for your sympathy. Lost my daughter almost 4 yrs ago to breast cancer. Shoulda been me. Always figured by the time she was 60 they'd have a cure. Not as tough as I used to be.

Have had discussions w/my H about not having the strength anymore to continually go thru such a fight with him. Getting him to take care of his health, quit smoking, go to the Dr. etc etc. He's been inclined to tantrums to scare me off (his mom's strategy that worked on him-never works on me). Wears me out, but so far, I've kept on.

I'd like the rest of my life to be as much fun as possible. With him. He's slowly "getting it" & slowly improving some of the health stuff and slowly getting into sex more. Will he ever share intimate thoughts? Tell me how he thinks about sex in general? How he feels about having sex? He rarely says anything when we ML. That part doesn't appear to be moving at all, not even slowly.

I mentioned to Diane on her thread that guys talk about their quick & hot conquests when they're younger. Tend to stay in that macho-no emotion tone as they age. Can't imagine a guy telling another guy how much his wife affects him emotionally during sex. How great their intimate life is. If they have no example from their parents (H's were D'd & mom was crabby fighter)hugging, kissing, being nice to each other.... Probably real hard for a lot of them to open up and admit their feelings. And being vulnerable to a woman? When she could do so much harm if she knew how much they needed her?

The book I hope H reads next has a section about letting go of the "little boy" and "being the man you want to be" - it may not help my sex life, but it might help him to function more as an adult overall and especially with respect to straightforward communication instead of - well tantrums, evasions, distractions and all of that.

Have a good weekend. I need a rest from all of this. Probably be on next week some time.
Thanks again,
Jayce

[diane74]

SO sorry Jayce that things seem to not be going well. I haven't been here for a bit. Hope to see you soon with better news.

You mentioned in your post that you had a discussion with your H about not having the strength anymore. What was his reaction to that?

I so wish I had words of wisdom, I don't. Take care and I hope soon things look up. Wanted to come and say something as I have been thinking of you.

Off to unload on my thread now lol ughhhh!!

[Jayce]

Thanks, Diane. Some days it seems bad, others not so much. I vent here when I'm down. Or banging my head on the wall cuz of H's poor/reluctant communication. I win some, lose some. Last weekend wasn't good. This past weekend was OK. 3 more weeks & we're in Mexico. I can hardly wait! We'll be WARM for a week.

You & I share two problems. Our husbands aren't real good communicators and we'd like to have -um- the sex lives of our dreams? LOL Or at least something we can describe as "regular" and "satisfying". Also, both our guys have some pretty significant baggage from their pasts. Not our problem so we can't fix it.

I don't think I can "fix" myself into becoming LD. I'm not sure my H can "fix" himself into being "a little more than LD". I see a little "fix" in communicating. Clumsy sometimes, but occasionally I hear something illuminating or good. Better than it was last year, that's for sure.

Last fall & once this winter I've said that about the strength. He said "I know that" both times. I think he tries not to be so angry & obstinate most of the time, but he has only so many tools in his bag. If he can't do the intimidation thing he learned from mamma he doesn't have anywhere else to go. He needs to "use his words" but he's never had that habit & can't come up with the words he wants to use quickly. Of course, if he'd do that way before he gets me upset, he'd have time to choose words he needs to express himself. Even think of what he wants to say - radical!

It probably bugs him that on some level he knows what I'm getting at is rational & reasonable. But he's afraid to change, afraid of failure, stubborn, not having control. That one book that encourages the guy to stop listening to his internal little boy & become the man he wants to be is relevant here. (Little joke: "No, honey, you won't really go blind & it won't fall off if you use it too much").

If you have time, follow Cinco's thread back till you get to the stick drawing, then go back a little farther to see what its about. Funny. Pretty cool, too.
Jayce

[Jayce]

Hi to anyone still reading this. I hope you are all well.

It is warming up here and that means scraping all the winter hair off the horses and we can trail ride again. I'm having fun, but really exhausted today. Good excuse to sit still awhile.

H & I have had a couple more up & down weekends, but, at last, a breakthrough of sorts. I've been asking when H first felt he'd lost his libido & if he had any idea why for about 15 months. A couple days ago he said when he realized he was having some ED problems that knocked out the libido. He also said it took him a long time to realize that. And he realized it "awhile back". As for why he didn't tell me then, whenever it was, instead of allowing the hurt to continue he had no answer. Aaahhhhhhhhh.

Passionate Marriage was followedin 2000 by Resurrecting Sex, same author. He has some interesting things to say about arousal, desire and anxiety. Anxiety being a performance killer in that it decreases arousal during ML and kills the good stuff like enjoyment and performance. Haven't got to the part where he tells us how to decrease the anxiety, assuming there is a way we can do that. I'm on it. It'll be faster if you guys read it yourselves, cuz we're on vacation in a week and I don't know when I'll get back to the books. I'll have to return it to the library & take it out again when we get back. Not a problem. I think I need a vacation from all the books, too.

Hang tough, everybody,
Jayce

[LG nm12]

Jayce,

That is a HUGE breakthrough!!! I am so happy that you found a new piece to your puzzle.

It must be so crushing for a man to deal with ED. It's one of those things that needs to be brought to light, I think. A man needs to take a good, hard look at the issue, realize that he's not alone, that it's not the end of the world, and that there are solutions. Going through those stages and getting to the solutions part is probably a tough journey, especially with a man who doesn't want to dig within.

Ohhhhh, things could get much better for you. I'm praying!

Lucky

[Jayce]

Thanks! I asked him if he knew it awhile ago, whatever that means, why he didn't tell me then instead of putting me thru hell. No answer. Its not like I didn't know about the ED, altho back when he said libido was gone, the ED wasn't as noticeable or frequent and going off the beta-blocker helped.

I hope it is the truth. Sounded like it. From my past posts here & posts on other threads since last fall, you may have come across my rants about him being passive-aggressive and what that means in communication. Sometimes he just says things either to upset me further or sound like he's answering. He is intermittent passive-aggressive and is great when he's not looking for hidden meanings or traps or whatever and just acts like a normal person. I hate to play games, but when he's given me a particularly hard time I don't talk much the next day. He always does a 180 & is nice again because that scares him. So 2 weekends ago he was blowing off again into Mon. & I knew he'd call me from work & I just didn't answer. He called the house phone twice & cell twice, each message more concerned than the last. I didn't tell him I was so fed up, hurt, angry that I didn't answer on purpose. Just said I was where I didn't hear it. He was already set to be real nice & didn't realize I was fibbing. If I'd told him it was on purpose, he'd have been a little mad, but mostly hurt. I just wanted him to sweat a little. I can be mean & petty for a good reason. This was a little poke in the gut cuz I knew he'd be worried about where I was, if I'd gone & he wouldn't know where. Makes him face that he's pushed too hard again.

A characteristic of the P-A is "I hate you, don't leave me" they fear being abandoned. Part of the anger & yelling is to keep you from getting too close cuz then they'd get attached & you'd leave. I can deal w/it, but not in this situation. For one thing, I'm fed up w/his irrational, illogical talk & actions. Time to man up & quit letting his fears (real & irrational) rule his reactions and behavior. Its not like we're fighting about who dented the car or spent too much money.

I guess he really gets (at last) my mental state. He had a physical last week. Dr. called, has to see him next week to discuss his test results. Usually he just calls w/cholesterol numbers. He said if I hadn't heard him on the phone, he wouldn't have told me so I wouldn't be worrying before we go on vacation. ED is mostly physical and has to do with blood circulation and oxygen transport. The condition of the blood vessels, including arterial plaque, damage from smoking, and all those other nasty things stubborn people do to themselves thinking -what? - their bodies are different? Sorry to be going on so long.

Maybe the anti-smoking campaign should quit talking about lung cancer and focus on guys getting DWD* from it instead. I'll bet it'd make a stronger impression even tho they don't die of it.

I hope you are doing better. I'll have to check the other threads later.
Jayce
*Drooping Weenie Disease