Seperated But Living Together

[2gthrButApart]

Oh, and when he was leaving to the gym 2nite, he kept giving me a different cheek to keep kissing, then when his hood kept getting in the way, he gave me the kiss on the cheek. But I grabbed his hood, moved it out of the way, and gave him a nice kiss on the cheek, he didn't flinch or seem as tho he was pulling away, like i usually feel. But in the back of my mind is yesterday's conversation. So I'm not reading in to it. Is he happy being just friends? Why is he still here if he doesn't want to fix things? Is he waiting around to see if I actually accomplish 180's for the things that contributed to our seperation?

(He's happy I started back at the gym.Thats a 180) I feel guilty GALing, and putting me 1st...Is this normal?

[Art_Pl]

Hi,
I read your story and my heart is truly with you. I have little understanding how a man can leave his home, wife, kids. How he can say cruel things and behave this way. No respect. By the way I don't think that he has an affair, he would otherwise quit ML to you.
I am fighting for my marriage for over two years and here is what I can say: 1) Do not analyze and think of details, how did your H smiled or exact words he said. It is not so important. Important are relations and they are not defined by words.
2) It may be fearful, even to think that he may leave you. But in this situation you may actually benefit from the separation. I would tell him that he may move out at his will and do whatever he wants. Whenever he wants he may come back, have a meal play with kids, but no ML. Time will pass, may be a year or two. Then if your relations were healthy they will be restored and he will be back. If you try to hold him he may never realize how important are you for him. Give him this chance.
3)From the style of your letter I believe that you are a great wife and mother. However my good advice is to consider seriously what you can improve about yourself. I, for example, changed a lot in the past two years.
4) Treat him friendly, but with dignity. Do not accept a verbal abuse from him.
Art
I-37
W-35
D-4
Separated since 10/2006

[sandi2]

Hi again, okay let’s start first with what he has complained about you.

He's not happy, says I changed. Says he doesn't know what "it" is, but I'm different ( I think a lot has to do with my self esteem, I know I'm beautiful, but am no longer comfortable in my clothes.

First of all, YOU can’t make him or anyone else happy. We make ourselves happy and he needs to learn this. As some people believe, happiness is a choice we make about our lives, about our day, the moment, about us. So, you need to not accept that responsibility of “making him happy”—if you have taken it on, then lay it down. If you took the traditional wedding vows, I am certain it does not say anything about promising to make the other one happy. As far as you changing, unfortunately it happens to every last one of us b/c we do not stay the same person we were when we met them back in high school or whenever it may have been. We get older and hopefully wiser and “life” happens to us, so we change. I think what he probably means to be saying that he does not like “how” you have changed. Therefore that’s a good clue to he doesn’t see you changing for the better and you need to privately take notes from the statements he makes to you. If he is immature to the point of thinking you would always look the same, then he must be delusional. You said you were no longer comfortable in your clothes. Does that mean you do not like your figure or size or exactly what does that mean? It sounds more like you threw that in there and not your H.

Says I never Initiated sex

Well, since the two of you are ML every night, it doesn’t seem to slow him down to the point of going without it and sulking. But it is true that you never initiated sex? Don’t be bashful, b/c I have a problem doing that myself.

I wasn't and am not neat enough (this is true)

I take it that he surely had this information at the time he married you? But it is something that you can work on to improve. Ever heard of Flylady? Look her up on line. She is fantastic.

I have a nasty attitude and am sarcastic ( a wall I built early in my life due to my childhood)

Attitudes can be fixed! But the trick is if the person with the nasty attitude “wants” to fix it badly enough. It takes courage and it takes a lot of practice. I don’t know what happen to you as a child, but apparently this is a protective mode you put yourself in. However, it will hurt your children so much to have a mother with this kind of attitude. It is horrible living with a sarcastic person and it does rub off onto your family....especially the children, b/c you are what they see and hear set before them day in and day out. Something to think about, isn’t it? I would suggest going to the library and looking at some self improvement books and do some serious studying. If you have the money, then you can buy some great ones at Amazon. I would not say anything to your H about what you are reading or what you are trying to change. Just allow him to “see” the changes for himself.

says I don't listen to him, and don't understand him

Well, you may never understand him! But, you can train yourself to “listen” to what he is “really” saying. We wives can get into a terrible habit of not really listening to our men and treat them like they are one of our kids. He may have tried for years to tell you what it is he truly wants, but you have not been listening with your heart as he talks to you. Now you are scared about it.

Says he always Gave, now its time for him to get thing for himself

Gee, he sounds like he’s about 80 years old here. Maybe he just needs to feel a little pampered when he comes home from working all day. You could have the girls ready and when Daddy comes home from work, make it a really special event. It trains the kids to appreciate what their father does for them and when they grow up, hopefully they will appreciate the role of their H’s also. Of course, the point is for you to mainly jump in the middle of all the hoop-la when Daddy comes in and carry on over him. Men love to be admired. When taken a poll, the number one thing men say they needed was to be admired! So, that is a good time to do that through the girls. You may feel strange about it at first, but then as it becomes more natural, you will find your own ways to show him and tell him you admire and appreciate him. Maybe have the girls to make something special to show him they appreciate him, or you come up with some nice things like back rubs, or......well, I’m sure you have a good imagination.

Says I should have realized his struggles, and gotten a FT job sooner than when he HAD to ask me to get one

Okay……do the two of you discuss all the financial side of the R together? Or, does one of you pay all the bills, balance the checkbook, etc.? Is he right? Should you or did you realize that he needed help by you getting a part-time job? If he acted as if things were fine (like some men do) how could you know he wanted you to work (some men don’t want their W’s to work). Guess you have to answer this one.

I never accomplished anything I said I would, degrees and such, even though he had paid lots of $$ for those opportunities for me ( I let being mom consume me, and those things fell to the waist side)

So, It takes time for some of us to know what we want to be when we grow up! It depends on where he places the most value. It is either on you having a degree with some high paying career, or being a full time devoted mother raising his children to the best of her ability. However, based on the previous statement he made, he must feel resentful about lack of money spent either on himself or the amount he feels was wasted on you. But, you can’t go back in time and have a re-do about that one, so what you cannot change don’t fret and worry yourself sick about. The best you can do is tell him (if he brings it up again) is that you apologize for the fact you did not fulfill all the things he may have wanted you to do, but you won’t apologize for being a full time mother for your girls. Those first 6 years of their life is about the most important. So, don’t feel guilty for staying home with them.

Says I never do anything I say I'm going to go do, like an errand or something of that nature

That must be a “pet peeve” that he has. Why does it bug him so? Are you that way? If so, do you carry it to extremes? What would there be about this that bothers him so much?

Says I always have excuses when I don't do the things I said I was going to do that day

Don’t we all? I bet he does too. But, maybe next time, just say, “Honey, I stand before you without any excuse!” (Maybe be over-dramatic or make it funny....if he's in the right frame of mind. Then hopefully, he'll see how silly that is. If excuses are not going to do you any good, no use wasting them, right?

Says I say sorry too much (again I think it's a childhood issue of mine)

Do you mean by “sorry” that you are always saying that you are sorry about something? I have kind of made a pack with a couple of the girls on the board here to break ourselves from that habit. It is a habit, but if we work on it hard enough, we can find other words to say in place of “sorry”. For an example, if you accidentally hit your grocery buggy against another person’s buggy....instead of saying, “I’m sorry”, say “Excuse me”. If you make a mistake or do something by accident just say you apologize, but you don’t have to put yourself down all the time by constantly saying you are sorry. I know another couple where the wife is as sweet as she can be, but she is constantly saying she’s sorry and it drives her H crazy! They nearly had a fight about it. That is one of the smaller things you can fix rather easily. It takes practice and training yourself to be observant.

Things I realized, big mistake, i put our kids 1st in the marriage. See, about this Friday, my idea would have been Oh I'm getting out of work early, let me go get my girls from after school early, again putting them 1st. I took him for granted, in the sense that I "Knew" my marriage was secure. Boy was I wrong, in all ways. I'm trying to change that too.

This is very, very normal for a mother to do, especially with young children. And yes, some young husbands are jealous of the fact that the W has to spend so much of her time with the kids. The children do require things before the H in most cases b/c they are small. He has to learn to be a grown-up. Most men will never admit to being jealous of their kids, but many are resentful of the “time” the W spends with them that takes away from the man. Just do what you can to include him with what you do with the girls and if he refuses, then when they are sleeping or gone, that is your special time with him. If it has to be pointed out to him as if he were a little boy…..so be it. (See, I can be rather sarcastic myself!)

I would advise you to erase the history of your activity on this divorce board from the computer. I’m not trying to tell you to be deceitful, but to be cautious, b/c a lot of spouses do not understand what this is all about and when they find that their H/W have been talking to other people about their M, they blow up and then the H/W can’t come back and post anymore. So, it is like your DR book and any other books you get to read. Don’t leave them laying around for him to see what they are. Those are just for you. They are tools for you to learn to use. It is like having a game plan and not wanting the opposing team to see it. That makes sense, doesn’t it?

Okay, work on yourself. You have low self-esteem and I want to talk to you about that later, but this post is already long, so just try to find books to read. Do you like Dr. Phil? I just got one of his books on sale for about five bucks and it is pretty good and an easy read. Talks a lot to women about self-esteem. Anyway, take a long hard look at yourself (inside and out) and make some personal goals (besides the ones your H has mention he wants changed about you)……and again, don’t let him see all of this, it is just for your eyes only. It takes the effect away (in my opinion) if you discuss all of that with him. Make a few short goals at a time. Make them realistic and attainable. That way, you won’t get discouraged by setting them so high you can’t possibly reach them. It makes us feel great to know we reached our goal. For just one example, maybe you are going this week without saying you are "sorry" to anyone. (Unless you do something terrible to them) :o. Or, you are going for three days without being sarcastic. But, get you a notebook to use as a journal or goal setting book with a calendar. Use your imagination. Make it fun, if you can, b/c it sure will be hard at times.

If you want to keep this man, then you have got to pull out all the stops and show him what is really living inside that person he is M to. Show him how charming you can be. Pour on the “Miss Personality”. See how “sweet” you can be instead of sarcastic. Oh yeah, you may feel like a big phony at first, but it takes practice to feel real. However, if you practice long enough, it does become "real". Be prepared with a great come-back answer for him when he asked you what “this” is all about.....talking about whatever you are doing at the time.

Make it fun, even though it is a serious situation. Nobody likes to be around anyone who is not fun, do you agree? Who wants to be around somebody that doesn’t have a good word for anyone or anything? Not me. I like to be around upbeat, happy people who are full of life and enjoy every moment. You know why? B/c they make me feel good being around them and I think that might be what your H meant when he says you don’t make him “happy”. He means he doesn’t feel good being around you. However, you have the power to change all of that. God gave each person the power to change if they wanted to. Great, huh?

So, you just thought you wrote long posts! That was before you met me……LOL. Oh, I could go on & on, but I’ll give you a break and rest your ears. I will tell you this.....that as long as you are trying to cooperate and “work” at Dbing, I will be here to try to help you……if you agree with what I suggest. If you don’t, then that’s okay b/c sometimes it takes different people working together.

So, I’m excited b/c I think this M can be saved and I think YOU have what it takes to save it. So……get to work and I’ll be anxious to hear back from you. If you haven’t been taking good care of yourself, that must become a priority! Eat a good balanced diet, and exercise a lot, and get enough sleep. All three are very, very important. We will talk more about that later.

I have to go, my fingers are numb.....LOL.

Take care,
Sandi2

[smartcookie]

2tghr, I wanted to answer your question from my thread........

I can't speak for your H, I can only speak for me. There were numerous times that I began to experience feelings again for my H. Only when he continued (time & time again) behavior that was damaging to our relationship, did my love die completely.

[sandi2]

now that I work FT, even though we are not together

I apologize. I notice you said FT, which must mean "full time" and I was thinking you made a typo and meant "part time". See how we can assume what other people mean instead of what they are really saying?

Also, I must be the one confussed here b/c from your posts, you say that the two of you are sleeping together and he is coming home straight from work, but here you say "even though we are not together", so could you tell me if you are already seperated b/c I have gone back twice to read your posts and did not catch it until I saw that statement. I thought you were still in the same house together. If you are separated, when does he leave if the two of you are sleeping together every night? Did I misunderstand that badly and now I have to go an make personal apologies to everyone?


Sandi2

[kelaaron]

Hey,

Sandi is so good, listen to her and think about what she is saying to you. She is very right about so many things and I want to reinforce what she has said.

1. Don't separate if you want to save the M. Although he may "miss" you if separated, it can actually make things harder in the long run. My H still lives at home. He has threatened to leave, so he won't have to listen to me complain (part of him not recognizing that I have feelings too and that I'm not just being a b** when I say why are you doing laundry now when for 15 years you wouldn't?) but that is his discomfort. I knew I had reached a detatchment when he said it and I looked at him and said "Ok go." Well he didn't. The last time he said it, I told him I didn't want him to go and that he didn't have to. Surprise surprise, he actually admitted he doesn't want to go either. After 6 months of saying he wanted to leave.

2. You do have to set your boundaries, but they are YOUR boundaries and only you can decide what they are. I set mine about sex because it was becoming to painful for me mentally. But that has changed now. I don't know if I should be ML with him but I don't know that I shouldn't either. Just know that sex won't fix everything.

3. None of this is a quick process. Yes MLC, can last for many many years. The average is 3-5, but i have seen stories of it being much longer. Only you can decide if you will hang in or not. And you may flip flop on this yourself from time to time. Whatever you choose, people here will support you.

4. His complaints. They are a place to start. A good place to start. But you have to pick the things that you really feel you can change and change the permanently. That means looking at WHY you are that way. With the sarcasm, probably a defense mechanism. What are you afraid of? The cleaning--that may just mean you need to get more organized and Fly lady is great although you will get about 1000 emails a day LOL. Putting your children first. Most mothers do that and most men have a hard time with it. You have to try to see where you overdo it. And IMO, moving and homeschooling is probably not such a good idea if you already "mother" too much. I homeschool and as much as I love it and love my S, it really takes much more time than I ever thought it would.

5. It is probably easier for him to think of you as not together even though you really are. Yes the pressure feels like less. Suddenly they are not responsible for pleasing you. For making you happy as well as themselves. Although you are M, it is ok to let yourself feel a little bit of that freedom as well. Personally, I found that it gave me the opportunity to step outside the M and look at it from another perspective. To stop seeing what H was doing "to" me, and to just see what he was doing and what I was doing.

I am by no means a success story for saving my M. I told Regrets, we are living in a situation, basically agreed to D at some point in the future, who knows when, but things are shifting. I don't know where that shift is taking us but I'm happy right now just giving it time to work itself out. We are both changing and who knows what is gonna come down the road. But I am a success story for saving me and that is really the bottom line because the only way I will ever be happy in this or any other relationship is to be happy with me.

Good luck, believe it or not, it does get easier in many many ways.

[2gthrButApart]

now that I work FT, even though we are not together

I apologize. I notice you said FT, which must mean "full time" and I was thinking you made a typo and meant "part time". See how we can assume what other people mean instead of what they are really saying?

Also, I must be the one confussed here b/c from your posts, you say that the two of you are sleeping together and he is coming home straight from work, but here you say "even though we are not together", so could you tell me if you are already seperated b/c I have gone back twice to read your posts and did not catch it until I saw that statement. I thought you were still in the same house together. If you are separated, when does he leave if the two of you are sleeping together every night? Did I misunderstand that badly and now I have to go an make personal apologies to everyone?

LOL, we are living together, sleeping in the same bed. What I meant by not together, is he says we are seperated. He says we are not together. But we do more now as a "seperated" couple than when we did as a "together" couple.

He basically just took off the "together" label. But everything is the same, except for no affection as in hugging during the day, kissing on the lips, those types of things.

But at nite he hugs me most of the nite, and if I turn to hug him, he leans really into me, to get super close. That's one of the reasons I'm confused.

Thank you for your hlp, I'm going to answer the other questions you asked me also. I do believe in everything you're telling me.

One thing...Can my love and affection scare him? B/c when we were talking about how much I just tried to show him I love him, he said did you ever think maybe I didn't need that?

I read some place (I've been reading books like mad) That a guy can get a lil' defensive after a while if they are receiving the love & affection from their wives, they feel their mom should have given them. He has basically been on his own since 16, and his parents divorced when he was 8. It said something like if their mom didn't give them that love, then why does his wife want to give it to him, as if he is unworthy of being loved.

[2gthrButApart]

Art_Pl


Thank you for replying, my H hasn't left the house, and he has no idea how or if he can ever leave the house b/c he is in love with our daughters, and them w/ him. They are extremely close, and so he hasn't walked out on his family. In fact he has told me several times, he is not leaving his family, he is leaving ME. He never knew how to tell the girls, or he would have left in Dec when he really wanted to.

With resentment comes sacrcasm, jealousy, envy, nasty attitude. All te things I KNOW I WANT and NEED to change, b/c I don't want to be a nasty person, mom, wife.


I actually see him as being extremely strong, like smartcookie, he is unhappy in or marriage, and is in "pain" physical, mental, emotional, and yet he has remained in our house, putiing our daughters 1st, so that they are not effected. They still have NO IDEA. b/c things are so normal at home. All discussion happen when they are out of the home, or are asleep. That's why SC's post touched me so much, b/c I can now understand the type of pain he tells me he is in by being married.

I know I have changed, he admits he has too, and that's why my "tough girl" personality is no longer attractive to him. He is still very sexually attracted to me,meaning my looks, my body.

Being a SAHM I became resentful sometimes, b/c he'd tell me to go out w/ friends and GAL of my own, not to revolve my life around him and our girls all the time. But I felt guilty doing that, and I didn't. That's where resentment grew, b/c he did have a life of his own. I gave mine up willingly to some extent.

A physical seperation will not work for us, but I think this mental break, of no phyiscal Husban label helps. It's like a relief. We are actually getting along as friends. And you know what...we don't fight, you know why...Friends don't fight. You may have a disagreement, but no fighting. So hopefully with a seperation, living in the same home he can SEE my changes. And know that I and HE matter so much that I'm willing to better myself. I'm happy to change, and I hope and pray our M is saved

[2gthrButApart]

I am a success story for saving me and that is really the bottom line because the only way I will ever be happy in this or any other relationship is to be happy with me.

Good luck, believe it or not, it does get easier in many many ways.

Hi K,

Yes S2 seems very insightful, and so do you.

The things he has mentioned about my changes, are all very true and at 1st I was VERY defensive, but when I sat down to think about it he is 100% RIGHT!!!

Growing up...my dad left when I was 4, my mom remarried when I was 6, only to get the crap beat out of her almost every single day. Do you know what its like to be a helpless 6 yr old chile, hearing your mom get the life literally choked out of her in the next rm, and not be able to do a thing about it? It's hard, scary. The worst part is, my dad had moved in with his mom, Our neighbor, they could hear everything happening, and didn't help. I felt helpless and hopeless. My only defense mechanism as a child, is my mouth. I learned not to trust. Btwn having a dad walk out, having him tell you he'll come by to pick you up or see you, and those things don't happen you build walls. I started at a very young age to tell myself, i don't need him, I don't want to see him anyway, but deep inside I did.

My ex-stepfather ended up doing drugs, hard drugs, sold much of our stuff, stuff my dad bought for US. He pointed a gun at my mom while she held me in her arms. He had punched her through walls, cracked her head open about 3x, and cheated numerous times. I saw my mom nervous, scared for her life, my life, and her family's life b/c of course he gave the speech "if you leave me I'll kill your family". The cops never helped b/c he lived with us for longer than 30 days, so you know what, can't get rid of him!

I saw her snoop through his wallet, finding numbers, not trusting him, and I think this lead further into my trust issues.

When me & my H 1st got toghether I didn't have trust issues at ALL, b/c that was pre- baby body LOL. After I had the girls, and gained weight and had stretch marks I felt embarrassed. He never said a thing, he encourages me to work out, and I do now ( and I think he likes that I'm now taking me time)

With the initiating of sex, i did all the time, again before the girls, then I became uncomfortable with ME, so in my mins I was comparing myself to all those beautiful moels and actresses I know he finds sexy, and I'd tell myself, he sees all these beautiful girls, so looking at me is going to be like Blah, gross. Look at what the hell I have ot come home to and sleep with.

Now that we are not "together" and he's still choosing to sleep with me, not b/c he HAS to, rememerb in his mind we are not together, then he MUST like me, the way I look. I have about 20Lbs to lose, but her NEVER says a thing bad. NEVER. And if he's still sexually attracted to me than I must be pretty sexy.

I am going to the gym 3-4x per wk, and am losing inches, and he seems just as proud of me as I am.

I do agree with you about the idea of us not "being together" takes pressure off of him, and helps us to "be ourselves" we are getting along great. What can this mean??

[2gthrButApart]

2tghr, I wanted to answer your question from my thread........

I can't speak for your H, I can only speak for me. There were numerous times that I began to experience feelings again for my H. Only when he continued (time & time again) behavior that was damaging to our relationship, did my love die completely.

SC, thank you for finding me to reply.

I know what you mean, b/c the other day, on the subway, my H put his Ipod on full blast ( he was a bit depressed and stressed), and I asked hiw why did he put it on so loud, but I guess I asked in a "motherly' fashion, and he got REALLY offended. Later that day, on his IM away msg, it read...It's always the same thing, any way you look at it....Now that you made that comment, I see what he meant. I never knew men were as sensitive as we are, but with his depression comes extreme sensitivity, and a really great memory when it comes to things I say. Maybe not physical activities, or stories, but if I say soemthing that insults him or hurts him, he does NOT forget it. So I'm being extra careful now.
Since we are getting along so well, and he is still physically into me, and playing and joking, I think I may have a slim chance that his love hasn't completely dide yet.

What's your opinion? Could it be a front, to not "hurt me" more, or b/c he feels pity that he hurt me by wanting a divorce?