lol I was thinking the same thing. Maybe we should be studying astrology instead of self-help books! :P
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
I've been following your thread here, and wanted to chime in on a couple of issues for you to consider. The first one:
The Intimacy Dilemma (discussed on pgs. 55-62 of the SSM)
In my own case, my Sex-Starved Marriage was, in part, a reflection of a basic gender difference:
Most women need to feel a strong, loving, emotional connection before they feel the desire for a physical connection (i.e. an emotional connection is the pathway to sex). Take away that emotional connection for some reason, and the desire for physical intimacy is the first thing to go. She may even continue to masturbate when you aren't around to satisfy herself, but without that emotional connection, and especially if your relationship is strained, your touch may even repulse her. At one point, my emotional connection to my wife had deteriorated to the point that she claimed she could go the rest of her life without sex. As a man, however, your intternal wiring is (in general) completely the opposite.
Most men need to have an intimate physical connection before they feel the desire for a strong emotional connection (i.e. sex is the pathway to an emotional connection). In my own case, for example, I don't really feel loved, nor can I fully express my love for my wife, without this physical connection. Even when we men are feeling angry and distant from our wives (avoiding an emotional connection), men can feel the desire for sex, sometimes to an even higher degree than previously, because we are yearning to repair that connection to our wives and reestablish our loving feelings. At the same time, our wives are completely befuddled by this physical desire of ours, because they are reacting in quite the opposite fashion to the strained marital relationship: no emotional connection, no desire for sex. So the lack of sex gets added to the list of grievances, and things spiral even further downhill.
The problem that you have is, how do you convince your wife that your physical desire for her is based upon a yearning on your part for an emotional connection, and is not just you seeking a physical release. You wrote the following:
Quote:
I have also encouraged the idea that I need the physical release in order to leave her alone, since in the past that is the only thing that would convince her to ML. I should have known this would only cause a bigger barrier...
You got that right -- you simply added fuel to her misconceptions.
Men and women are 'wired' so differently when it comes to emotional and physical intimacy that we have an extremely hard time understanding what it's like for our spouse. It is particularly easy for women, especially mothers with children hanging on their skirts, to convince themselves that their husbands are simply after a physical release and that they (the wife) are just an object to satisfy some animalistic urge. The reality is: for most men, physical intimacy is the husband's PRIMARY means of expressing his love for his wife, and feeling her love for him.
The analogy that I used with my wife is this: men are 'tide pool' creatures, where the level of water in the tide pool is analogous to the level of love that we feel in the relationship (love for our spouse, love that we feel returned to us). During a period without physical intimacy, the sun (daily life) beats down on that pool, and the level of water slowly drops, and eventually leaves us gasping in a puddle on the bottom --> unable to feel the love and living 'like brother and sister.' However, all it takes is one nice episode of physical intimacy, and the tide comes rushing back in to refill that pool completely: the love that we feel for our spouse and the love that they feel for us returns in force, and the husband reestablishes emotional intimacy with his wife. What I personally experience is very much like a wave of deep emotions, leaving me in a wonderfully euphoric 'afterglow' state. Strangers on the street the next day can probably look at me and say "You made love last night, didn't you!"
Women, on the other hand, are more like 'pond dwellers,' who require a constant, steady stream of emotional intimacy to keep the level of love that they feel in the relationship near the 'high water mark.' If the husband works to keep that water level high, then his wife can experience a desire for physical intimacy with him. 'Can' is the operative word here -- physical intimacy is generally optional for women, and is not required in order to feel emotional intimacy. This is why it's so very difficult for women to understand men's 'reverse wiring' in this regard: it's completely alien to them, but it's still very real.
Now, I'm speaking pretty generically here, and to my own case in particular, but I've witnessed that a woman's desire for sex can undergo a dramatic upswing IF the other aspects of the marriage relationship begin to get fixed. Trust has to be rebuilt, old grievances addressed, and a strong emotional connection reestablished, BUT it can be done -- my wife and are in the process of doing it. Each partner must recognize and accept the valid love / `connection' needs of the other. For the man, this means recognizing the importance of (for example) sharing housework and other responsibilities, spending quality time together as a family and couple, and continuing to romantically court your mate no matter how long you've been together; that is, actively pursuing an emotional connection with your wife. For the woman this means recognizing the importance of (for example) a caress, a kiss, and close sexual intimacy; that is, actively pursuing a physical connection with their husband. It's not about doing the stuff on the honey-do list in order to get your wife to turn-on to you. It's not about turning-on to your husband in order to get him to do the stuff on the honey-do list. [i.e. no covert contracts] It's about understanding and meeting the valid love needs of the other, and having your own love needs met in return.
The second topic I'd like to go into, and which also strongly affected my own SSM and had to be addressed in order to repair it, is in regard to being The Man in the relationship: being masculine and as such, being sexually attractive to your wife, and at the same time, perimitting her to be feminine and sexually attractive to you. You've already latched on to the NMMNG book (and others like it), so for now I'll leave off on this long post and encourage you to continue applying the principles therein. I'll write more later, if you like.
Take care,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Most women need to feel a strong, loving, emotional connection before they feel the desire for a physical connection (i.e. an emotional connection is the pathway to sex). Take away that emotional connection for some reason, and the desire for physical intimacy is the first thing to go. She may even continue to masturbate when you aren't around to satisfy herself, but without that emotional connection, and especially if your relationship is strained, your touch may even repulse her.
SSM taught me well. I realized that we were caught in that blame cycle as soon as I read about it. I resolved to be the one to break it and I am truly working my butt off in the "meet her needs" stage. After carefully going through 5LL, I am pretty sure W's LL is quality time. If I could do one of those cool flashback TV shows, I would see my W complaining about how we don't spend enough time together. I do the other four well, but they don't seem to "count" and I used to get hurt when my gifts, words, touch, and hard work around the house did little to nothing to appease her in the love dept.
On a side note, it's funny you mention masturbation because I was thinking that same thing just recently. If she was doing it over the years, she certainly wouldn't tell me about it, since she knows I would react negatively to her saying she isn't interested in and then meeting her own needs later. Now I know better, but back then I wouldn't have understood and would have blamed her more.
Quote:
The analogy that I used with my wife
I will keep the tide pool/pond analogy in mind. I think her pond is best filled with quality time together as I mentioned. She responded very well to our first "date night" and got excited about the prospect of doing more of them.
Quote:
Now, I'm speaking pretty generically here, and to my own case in particular, but I've witnessed that a woman's desire for sex can undergo a dramatic upswing IF the other aspects of the marriage relationship begin to get fixed.
I am already seeing the beginnings of this. I feel optimistic because she has already changed her attitude to sex so much, I am sure if I continue to work on myself she will continue to respond. I am willing to give it the time it needs to see if the changes I am making will result in her naturally wanting to meet my needs and getting something out of it also.
Quote:
The second topic I'd like to go into, and which also strongly affected my own SSM and had to be addressed in order to repair it, is in regard to being The Man in the relationship: being masculine and as such, being sexually attractive to your wife, and at the same time, perimitting her to be feminine and sexually attractive to you. You've already latched on to the NMMNG book (and others like it), so for now I'll leave off on this long post and encourage you to continue applying the principles therein. I'll write more later, if you like.
I truly get this for the first time in my life. Not just from reading NMMNG etc, although it was certainly the first time I saw a book address the issue. My eyes have truly been opened to this, and man what a huge revelation it was for me.
I am interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject, since I am still quite deep in the process of "exploring my masculinity", for lack of a better way to put it. For me, NMMNG (and each of the other books I mentioned) is just one perspective, I continue to seek many others.
Thx again, SF
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
Rather than trying to make guesses regarding how you and your wife both feel about your state of masculinity (and what level would really 'light her fire'), I thought I'd invite you browse through Bagheera's Journey in rediscovering my own manliness and asserting it with regard to my relationship with my wife -- at HER prompting and encouragement -- and glean what might seem most applicable to you. The exchanges between DanceQueen, Strong&Alive, SillyOldBear, and myself are the better ones. This post on page 5 describes Part 2 of my breakthrough, and in a sense still represents some of the issues that I am still working on today. You also might want to look over my four 'models' for approaching a woman for sex post, as it is directly related to the topics in my regular thread.
Give me some feedback on all of this, and how it may (or may not) relate to you own situation.
Take care,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Woah, that's some serious reading. I am up to page 6 I think.
Interesting reading along. Your process is soooo similar to mine. You are further along in implementation however. I am only just starting to see the benefits of my change in paradigm.
I'll comment more at a later time, it is bedtime for me right now.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
You mentioned that your wife is a "bookworm" somewhere back in your thread, and I would strongly encourage you to take a serious look through her library and even ask if you can read some of her favorites. For literally years, my wife was displaying, right under my nose, the kind of man who turned her on the most and that she dreamed and fantasized about, and I completely missed it, or rather, completely ignored it. Granted, stories depict an exaggerated, exciting picture of life, so you wouldn't want to try copying what you read exactly (that could get you arrested....), but the FLAVOR of the depicted relationships can tell you a *lot* about what she desires deep-down, and has been perhaps reluctant to tell you about.
And if you find yourself wondering "Why in the heck didn't she just TELL ME this is what turns her on?!" keep in mind three things:
(1) Many modern, liberated, strong women are embarrassed and perplexed by the fact that what really turns her on is a man who is stronger than she is and who will 'conquer' her, at least in the bedroom. It feels like a betrayal of feminist principles, while at the same time feeling very natural and enjoyable with the right man.
(2) Women are often indirect communicators -- a feature which drives man crazy sometimes. They frequently avoid telling you directly what they want from you, and feel much more comfortable hinting, enticing, and trying to lead you in the right direction instead. John Gray's books (and others) frequently inform women that when they are dealing with a man to be *direct* and precise: that we frequently miss their hints and clues, but the tendency is still there -- other women don't have any problem understanding what they mean....
(3) Many women have an unconscious expectation that if he (her man) loves her enough, then he will just naturally *know* what she needs / wants, when and how she needs it, without her ever having to say it, and even if she doesn't know herself what she really needs / wants. This very romantic notion still boggles me sometimes. My wife is a strong, assertive woman, and while feminine, she isn't an overly romantic or silly girly-girl, BUT she still carries the above notion around in her head, if not consciously, then sub-consciously. It's also a common feature of the rakes...er men in her books: these guys just *know* what to do, even when the heroine doesn't. What's worse, for my wife to come right out and tell me what she wants / needs sometimes ruins the result entirely --> it isn't satisfying after that. What's a man to do, then? I'm being held to an ideal that I'll never attain, but there IS a positive side here too: my wife is realistic and also understands that it's an unattainable ideal; therefore, if I pay attention and read her well enough much, if not most, of the time, then that will be enough. In other words, I get credit for trying, at least.
Finally, don't forget the progression I had to go through to get to the point where my wife would share with me (in the form of a hint or two) what she really wanted from me in our relationship. I had to rebuild her trust in me and get past all of the old resentments FIRST. In general, a woman will only want to be 'thrown on the floor and ravished' by a man with whom she feels a deep emotional connection first, a man who makes her feel loved by his support, care, respect, and cherishing gestures. The groundwork has to completed first, before moving on to this step of the relationship.
And if it feels to you like what many women want from a man is a paradox: a supportive and caring husband & father outside of the bedroom, and a passionate, ravishing cave-man inside the bedroom, then you would be right. But it's no different from the paradox that many men want from their women: a nurturing and caring wife & mother outside of the bedroom, and a brazen, seductive nymph inside of the bedroom. The nice thing about the bedroom is that it allows us to put aside our proper domestic 'skins' for a time, and lose ourselves in the primitive pleasures of each other for a change.
Best of luck to you,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I actually have read most of her books already. While they are not romance novels, most of them have male leads that exhibit many alpha male traits, despite their various issues and flaws. lol such a cliche, but true. Think I'll go watch Indiana Jones or something lol.
Work calls, more thoughts to come.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
Man, I read that whole thread and some of your posts sound like I could have written them from my own mind.
I have gained so much insight from being here, and from the books I have read so far. I know what needs to be done. Knowing and doing are completely different however, and I have always been better at knowing how to do something than actually going out and doing it.
Time to regroup and make a plan I think. As I open my W up, she is ready for more aggressive romance. There is no longer resistance to my pursuit.
Oh and BTW, things are certainly changing in my R. My W is becoming much more sexually available to me. Last night I woke her at 2:00am. She kept saying "look how late it is" "I need sleep" "I have to get up in a few hours", but it was like she was trying to convince herself since she really got into it. I told her, "this is what married couples do, they wake each other up in the middle of the night and ML". Unlike previous night sessions, I did not apologize, I simply took her, and tucked her in when I was done.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
