LBS need help and support #2

[faithisbelieving]

Song (and indirectly to volleyball)....separation is a difficult thing. I post this not to be a negative person or naysayer, but, after living in 'babysteps-ville', I have gravitated toward reality-based.

The majority of women who separate will go on to D. Not all, but, a large percentage. Many times, the reason for separation involve an OM. They are usually well-hidden. I am not trying to cause fear nor send you down cheeseless tunnels nor put my sitch on yours. What I am saying is you must now walk head up with eyes open. You must play a tough game of Twister: keep one hand on DB..place one foot in reality....the other hand spiritual...the other foot leading/grounded/attractive. There is NO FIFTH appendage (well...uh...you know) to put on a colored circle for babysteps.

Babysteps are not winks, smiles, eye contact, etc. They are not phonecalls for you to pick them up if their car breaksdown. They are not a cup of coffee made for you in the morning. These are moments of lucency in their clouds of confusion. They are moments of reducing their guilt for what they are doing to us and our families.

Real babysteps are:
-asking to go for a walk and holding your hand to talk
-expressions of desire to stay together while going thru counselling
-etc

My point is that holding on to hope, looking for that epiphany, etc. is only going to hurt you.

Did I say give up and treat them like crap?

NOOOOOOO!

The way back is by letting go and detaching. Moving forward with your life. Losing those extra pounds (FOR YOU NOT FOR HER).

The way back is by continuing to be the same strong husband and father that you've always been.

It is my belief that the quicker you accept the loss of what your M was....grieve...and let go of her...it will release you to move forward. From what I've seen, those who can do this are the ones who win back their W's.

Your WAW's are like bloodhounds. They sniff out anger, fear and pursuit. They sense you hunting down any little sign of hope. Ask yourselves.....would your W want to be with you the way you are now? Going dark doesn't mean that you stop talking to them and cold-shoulder them. It means you change your pattern of behavior so that you don't pursue them...it creates mystery, not jealousy.

Understand???

To song....why aren't you doing homework with your children? Is it time to get involved? I do math with my son. I teach him how to tell time. I read to him at least 2X a week. Is that attractive to be seen doing? Of course. More importantly, you are bonding with your kids.

No matter what happens, a woman loves to see a good father. Whether or not you save your marriage, it is a goal to achieve for all us men. Be in the moment with them.

FIB

[song]

FIB,

Thanks for your feedback and perspective. I'm trying to let go, I really am, but I honestly don't know if I can completely let go. I feel like I need to keep the faith that we will come out of this, otherwise I'm just giving in, and she's getting what she wants - me giving up.

If we didn't have kids, she would probably have already D, but she knows what a devastating effect that would have on the kids, so Im thinking she's either hoping that something inside her will change the way she feels (which she has said), or she's softening the blow by delivering it in stages. Maybe those are Plan A and Plan B and she's still unsure.

We are so intertwined in our kids lives, that it's really not possible for me to go dark. I tried that, and it just pushed me further away from my kids. But I have stopped pursuit.

Homework? That is something that W has always done with the kids because of schedule, she gets home from work by 3, I don't get home until after 6. With both kids in evening activities (basketball & tae kwon do), evening hours just aren't available for doing homework. Now don't get me wrong, I do take them to their sports, I help them on projects and anything that they haven't finished by the time I get to the house, but it would be unfair to them to switch their routines around so i could do more homework with them.

However, I hear you on the importance of being a good Father. Last night I brought them dinner, we played a fun imagination game while we ate (it started with "what does MSG stand for?", and answers got progressively silly), spent some time with S13 learning about the software that he is using, and played a game of Stratego with S11 - all big 180's from sitting in front of the TV, which used to be the norm.

I don't believe that there is an OM, but I do have a good idea of what led W to separate - to sum it up, part of it was me not taking good enough care of myself, part of it was her needing time away and alone because she felt cornered in the R with no options but to accept it, part of it is influence from her 2 best friends, one who separated from her H the same day, and the other who is a widow for the past 2 years... her H died because he didn't take care of himself.

And, part of it is baggage she carries from her childhood, where her parents fought a lot, continued to stay married, and W feels that they would have been better off if they had D. She works in the family business with her Dad and 3 brothers, so there still is a lot of family support and involvement in her day to day life. The whole family dynamic is "push the feelings down, put on a happy face, and act like everything is just fine". It all stems from her mom being a hardcore alcoholic, and the rest of the family being her enablers.

She now feels like she has totally been an enabler to me, and as a result, I wasn't taking good care of myself. After the bomb, I started exercising, lost 55 pounds, quit smoking pot (a 25 year habit) and really focused on being the best ME I could be. Her response to that is either "Look how much better you are doing without me, we aren't good for each other" when she's feeling positive, or "I kept trying to get you to change and take better care of yourself, and finally I just gave up. Maybe if something had changed earlier it would be different, but now I just don't even know if I want to try"

I realize that I may be putting too much value on eye contact and smiles, but I do see them as a change from how she has been, and doesn't MWD say to break down your signs into things you can look for in the next couple of weeks? Trust me, I'm not reading much into it, but it has to start somewhere.

This is all such a balancing act, I'm constantly checking to make sure I haven't slipped, and I greatly appreciate and rely on feedback and advice on here from every perspective. I've read your post a few times FIB, and I do get what you are saying. I'm not trying to justify myself, rather just giving more details and insight into my particular set of circumstances.

I know I have to face the potential that the M won't survive, but I choose to have faith that it will .

[faithisbelieving]

No one ever said give up or lose faith (er...see my name).

It is about maximizing your chances of being in that 5% here that end up in piecing, which in itself, is difficult.

If you have Levine's book (N.U.T.s), you'll see that one of those NUTS is staying in shape. I applaud that you dropped the pot and dropped the weight. Attraction helps. It doesn't mean hot clothes and a new bod...it is an attitude. If you don't have it yet, I also recommend Deida's book ..The Superior Man (not what it sounds like) and making her happy dot com. Sign up for the newsletters.

song..this is not easy. Been there done that. I won this twice and lost it twice. Some people are just lost.

If homework is where it should be, then, keep on doing those other things that keep you in with the kids and find new ways. Keep up those games you play. I still tickle my daughter...carry her on my shoulders going up the stairs. Those are the things that you and I recall about our parents.

You really have NO control over what she thinks, does, etc. Recognizing this is a release for YOU. I sense that you read my post above as a 'give up'. It isn't. It takes time to 'get it' and that is normal. The word detaching seemed so alien to me when everyone kept telling me to do it. I employed the word wrongly. Many think of it as ignoring, cold-shouldering, being vacant from the room.

That's not what it is. I found Gray's book, Mars and Venus Starting Over very helpful. It helps to understand grieving and forgiving....getting certain emotions out...and understanding the difference between the hope for reconciliation vs. denial.

Finally, in the beginning, there was NO ONE who could make me give up on my M. Ignore the exterior influences on your W. She must choose what she wants in her life. Should she foolhardily choose to side with another woman (misery loves company), then, this is her mistake to live with.

The only thing you control is your attitude and your actions:
-do not look for babysteps
-continue to be a good father and husband
-DO move forward with your life
-do continue to keep in shape
-DO NOT PURSUE OR R talk...it truly NEVER works
-don't get buttons pushed and keep on doing what you are doing: LISTEN more than talk. Think HARD before responding. Then listen some more. SILENCE...is a poweful tool.

Hang in.
FIB

[volleydog]

Since I saw my name I thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

Trust me right now me mindset is that we probably won't end up together so I'm doing what is right with me. I've learned through the help of a great boss who is also a preacher that I can't put my happiness in the hands of someone else. He kicks my butt when he knows I'm having one of those days.

That being said I still have hope that it can work. Also I know in my situation there is no OM, she literally doesn't have time, she's a Dr. and when I have the kids she's working. So if she did have OM he gets no time with her. Even if there was I wouldn't need to know since it wouldn't change what I'm doing, for me.

[lemonsnap]

Song,
I've been helped a lot recently by reading your posts and reading what people have been suggesting for you (thanks, faithisbelieving.) I think I'm in a pretty similar mindset right now to where you are.
It's hard to let go and focus on ourselves when our hearts and minds are still so focused on them.
But every day is an opportunity to write a new chapter in our book of life.
Keep on, my friend.

[song]

More great advice FIB, thank you, sincerely.

Wow, 5% end up in piecing? Didn't realize the percentage was that low, but I never was a gambler. I have to believe that we have a better than 5% chance, just for my own confidence level.

I know I don't have any control over what she thinks, does, etc. It took a while, and I made may mistakes along the way, but I do get that. I'm not sure if I really get the whole "detaching" concept, but I know I have to let go and let God. I pray every day, several times, asking God to guide me and give me strength, because this is something I cannot do by myself.

How do you know when you have detached?

I'm reading N.U.T.S now, and will get the other 2 you recommended. I've read so many books with so many approaches, I feel like I have been all over the place trying this, trying that, and it wasn't until I found DB and got some support and feedback that things really started to change.

I also know I'm relatively early in the process, so time is on my side.

[faithisbelieving]

Song...my DB coach way back once told me I was making him dizzy on the phone with all my reading, etc. He once told me to just STOP....and live.

Finish the books then just stop. You need to just pick those things that work for you and ignore the stuff that doesn't.

Detaching is an alien concept for all of us since it goes against what we promised our spouses when we walked down the aisle. Dr. Gray's book has an explanation in it that basically says that as we become more dependent on our S's, we become dependent on their love. When they die or divorce us, we feel that we can't go on. Detaching is realizing that we can be loved BY OTHERS and we aren't DEPENDENT ONLY on the love given by our WAS's. By realizing this...you release the bond that if your WAW bails...they aren't taking your only source of love away from you.

You let go. You GRIEVE the loss. That book made a HUGE difference for me.

The hardest concept that I try to explain to people here is that by letting going go of of your WAW's....grieving the loss/death of what you had....feeling the emotions...and then moving on...it releases you to know that WHATEVER happens, you will be OK...that someone will love you again.

By doing this, it allows you to let go of the pain, fear, pursuit, anger, ....ALL THOSE THINGS THAT CONSCIOUSLY AND SUBCONSCIOUSLY PUSH YOUR WAS away. You are then free to focus on yourself and your kids. You start doing those things you need to do by not consuming your emotions and time by stressing out over your M/WAS. You grow...learn...improve and in so doing ....BECOME MORE ATTRACTIVE to ANYONE.

It starts by taking the first step....you must decide in your mind that it is over and grieve.

DID I SAY KICK OUT W OR TREAT HER LIKE CRAP OR SAY GOODBYE TO HER OR ACT LIKE SHE DOESN"T EXIST?

NO!!!!!

Think.

Think.

Think.

FIB

[faithisbelieving]

Also I know in my situation there is no OM, she literally doesn't have time,

There is ALWAYS TIME. BE VERY CAREFUL. I am NOT telling you that there is something going on. I am only saying keep reality based while you DB.

FIB

[song]

I have several books left to read - finishing N.U.T.S., No More Mr Nice Guy, Radical Forgiveness, Co-dependent No More, Take Back Your Marriage, and Divorce Busting (already read DR).

Would you put Dr. Gray's book ahead of these? Would you recommend that I don't read one or more of these?

I feel like I have so much to learn, and I'm so not doing a good job of following a plan because I'm trying to cobble together info from so many sources and directions.

My IC suggested that I stop trying, and just be. I can't seem to wrap my head around that concept, as well as letting go and grieving the loss.

I'm so lost and confused.

[lemonsnap]

Hi Song,
I'm sorry you're feeling down today.
It happens to all of us.

((((hugs)))

Question for you -
I reviewed your goals, and most of them seem to be tied in some way to your relationship.
Is there anything you have planned or would like to do that's completely and only for you? I just found a really neat class I'd like to take that has NOTHING to do with anyone but me. I know I'll get something out of it, and it's also on a Sunday afternoon when I usually have down time. Bonus!

I went through a phase of trying to read everything I could get my hands on relating to relationships, self help books, etc. I think they're good in moderation, but it can certainly become overwhelming. We've already got a lot to process. I know I've been looking to those sources with thoe hopes of understanding what went on and why this is happening. I still try to do that too much. But I'm beginning to see that I may NEVER understand. I have to begin to let go of the whys.

Grieving is a very complicated process. People do it in many different ways, on their own timelines. We're all grieving here - the loss of what once was, etc. I think it's OK to grieve what was, because even if two people that have gone through something like this do reconcile, it's not ever going to be the same relationship. I don't think we'd want it to be. It might be wonderful, but it will be different.

Hang in there.