Retrouvaille saved me - AN #3

[AnotherNightmare]

breakaway - I have been following your story lately even though I do not think I have posted in your thread. Your H's behavior seems to be very similar to mine pre-Retro, so maybe Retro could help the two of you as well. It is an amazing experience that I do not want to miss. I am very glad about my personal results. There is still a long way to go with my M. My W did not have quite the same experience. I feel a little sad when I recall some of the things she has done, but that is hers to figure out.

Puppy - I am looking forward to reading more about your experience. I think there is actually a reason why they do not give you many breaks. We had a 20-minute break on Saturday, and I was getting ready to leave during that break. I am glad I did not, but your R is still so unstable, so fragile, almost any contact or conversation with your S outside the rules they give you can take you many steps back.

limbo - I agree with you 100%. The important lesson I learned during the first week after the Retro weekend was that I have to be careful with my W. Even though we learned a lot and worked on our M probably more than the last 10 years altogether, there are still many things we do wrong. And if you think now is the time to resolve all your conflicts, setbacks are inevitable.

Some journaling:

We experienced such a setback on Friday and Saturday trying to discuss a few things that we should not have discussed yet. Things got a little tense, but the good news is we both were able to say I am sorry at the end. That was a new experience.
I think one of the issues we are still dealing with is our true roles in this drama. There is no question my W was the victim of my emotional abuse, but does being the victim clear her of all wrongdoing? I observe that she might think that way. This could be devastating to our M, if it leads her to believe that she does not need to change.
Our first post-session on Sunday revived a lot of the positive feelings and good experiences we had. After the session, we went for a Starbucks coffee, a novelty for us, and had some light conversation. I will probably join her on the trip to Germany in April, as my current project will end this week (if it had not been canceled, I probably would have not been able to take vacation) and I will take over a new role that will also allow me to work from home a little more.

I feel kind of optimistic, maybe a 4 on the scale of 1-10. If my feeling were a color, it would be... (just a little Retro insider joke )

AN

[nw626]

PDT
I am so happy to hear this update from you.
Many prayers to You and Mrs Pup....

Strength and Honor, sir...

NW626

[nw626]

AN

This is such a great news.
I know there are still tons of work ahead and you can do this.

Best of luck and keep it up...

NW626

[AnotherNightmare]

Progress is very, very slow. My W told me yesterday (through Dialogue) that she feels vulnerable and unsure about the post program. Basically she is not ready yet to work on our marriage (just our "friendly" relationship), so she feels pressured by all of this. She says she does not understand the "Love is a decision" part, and she does not have the feelings of falling in love again. She asked me to give her one reason to try again. I told her that I love her and that it would save four people from the trauma of D. I do not remember exactly what she said (we were on the phone, as I am out of town), but she sounded like she was convinced she could get a D without the trauma.

This requires all my strength and patience right now. Not sure if she will get the "decision" concept during the upcoming post sessions. I can say for myself that I was not sure I loved her back in November or December, but as I made a few decisions to trust her (renewing our D5's passport), to love her (have been doing a lot of little things for her), and to commit to the Retro program, I started getting these feelings again. And today I feel as attracted to her as when we fell in love the first time.

But I also have a better grasp on my boundaries. I communicated to her that her post-D plans (moving back to Germany with the kids) are and will always be unacceptable to me. I have not put a time limit on this limbo state, but I am thinking hard about how long I can accept her indecision. I would like to hear from others how they have handled these things post-Retro.

Thanks,
AN

[breakaway]

Progress is very, very slow. My W told me yesterday (through Dialogue) that she feels vulnerable and unsure about the post program. Basically she is not ready yet to work on our marriage (just our "friendly" relationship), so she feels pressured by all of this. She says she does not understand the "Love is a decision" part, and she does not have the feelings of falling in love again.

I think maybe I understand a little bit why this could be bothering her. Perhaps if it was rephrased...to be...love is a choice. That she does have a choice. Instead of feeling like she is "supposed to" make a decision...That love is a decision, and the correct decision...so if you don't make that decision then you are a bad person. Which would be pressure.

I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but I think the exact words used are important at this vulnerable stage. When I feel like I don't have a choice I feel trapped and want to run...but feeling like I DO have a free choice makes me more willing to settle down a little and be more patient.

She asked me to give her one reason to try again. I told her that I love her and that it would save four people from the trauma of D.

Here's how I see that...You gave her the reason she "should" try again, responsibility to you and others, and that reason had nothing to do with her. Maybe you felt that by saying "I love her" that was about her...but it was about you. So she said why should I try again...and what you said sounded to her like...because I love you, so you should....as in her owing it to. Maybe she does owe it to you, I don't know. But that's not a real effective motivator, I think, in the long run. I think she needs to feel that you want her to be happy, that you want what's best for her, not what's going to avoid some trauma, that she can easily convince herself will not be that bad. For her, being married was the trauma. Does that make sense?

I think you need to come up with another answer for her...even if to you, you have the other reasons in your heart. My opinion is that you need to approach it with...there is time here. There is time to try and see if it can truly be different, that she can fully be herself and be happy in this relationship, that you can have a NEW marriage, and that as she grows as a person, she may find her feelings for you again. I think this idea of "love is a decision" Make a closed decision to try again because you "should" is going to drive her further away.

I do not remember exactly what she said (we were on the phone, as I am out of town), but she sounded like she was convinced she could get a D without the trauma.

Okay, you're the new AN, right? I think you need to start remembering exactly what she says in these situations, whether you're on the phone or not. I mean...this was kind of an important conversation...her response to what you said is going to give you the information you need to reach her. Let the women on the board help you!! If you could tell us EXACTLY what she said...then we could help you figure out if what "it sounded like" was accurate. I'll say it again.. the words matter right now (and always really, to a woman).

This requires all my strength and patience right now. Not sure if she will get the "decision" concept during the upcoming post sessions. I can say for myself that I was not sure I loved her back in November or December, but as I made a few decisions to trust her (renewing our D5's passport), to love her (have been doing a lot of little things for her), and to commit to the Retro program, I started getting these feelings again. And today I feel as attracted to her as when we fell in love the first time.

That's great..but again I'd caution you on coming at it with, well I made that decision, so should you.

But I also have a better grasp on my boundaries. I communicated to her that her post-D plans (moving back to Germany with the kids) are and will always be unacceptable to me.

Good for you! It's good not to lose yourself and your needs while trying to reach your wife and meet some of hers. You sound like you are staying balanced.

Hope some of this helps you understand what she might be feeling.

[AnotherNightmare]

breakaway,

Thank you for your open and honest answers and the female coaching for the DAM I still am, at least to a degree. It really helps a great deal.

I realize I need to make this about her, and you opened my eyes a little wider as to how important words really are, especially when we are on the phone and all other aspects of communication are cut off. When I said I love her, I really meant I want to be there for her, to make her feel loved and happy. Actually, I guess I made the false assumption that she does understand this part of the concept of love being a verb, something I do by carrying out loving acts of my affection. And the whole thing about the trauma really was supposed to say "I love my kids and I want them to be happy, too". Again, I need to pay attention to the words I use.

I know very well that the listening part of communication is still my biggest problem. I guess I have my work cut out for me.

Thank you again,
AN

[confusedinpa]

Here's how I see that...You gave her the reason she "should" try again, responsibility to you and others, and that reason had nothing to do with her. Maybe you felt that by saying "I love her" that was about her...but it was about you. So she said why should I try again...and what you said sounded to her like...because I love you, so you should....as in her owing it to. Maybe she does owe it to you, I don't know. But that's not a real effective motivator, I think, in the long run. I think she needs to feel that you want her to be happy, that you want what's best for her, not what's going to avoid some trauma, that she can easily convince herself will not be that bad. For her, being married was the trauma. Does that make sense?

I think you need to come up with another answer for her...even if to you, you have the other reasons in your heart. My opinion is that you need to approach it with...there is time here. There is time to try and see if it can truly be different, that she can fully be herself and be happy in this relationship, that you can have a NEW marriage, and that as she grows as a person, she may find her feelings for you again. I think this idea of "love is a decision" Make a closed decision to try again because you "should" is going to drive her further away.

Breakaway,

This is very insightful for me as well - my wife is going through the same battle. She keeps saying that's she can't find a reason to change her mind. In the past I tried the I love you route as well and got no/negative response.

More recently (i.e. last couple of days), she said that even though she sees the changes in me, she's still can't find a reason to change her mind, even though what I'm doing now is exactly what she was looking for several months ago.

She said that it was confusing to her as first there was the person she fell in love with in the beginning, then there is a second person who caused her all the pain/hurt and now there is me. She said that the big difference between me now and the first person is how much more verbal I am now. She said I was a man of few words when she met me.

I told her this was part of my awakening as I read/understand more, I am able to express and show it more (beyond just physical, which is what I did when I first met her). She said she's not sure about the new me and that's when I said to her that if she's not sure, perhaps she should take some time to find out. We left the conversation at that point.

We're going through a down period now so I'm getting very frustrated and anxious about it. I really am looking for an up period to ask about Retroville, but I know I need to pick my point very cautiously....

[Sara]

A lot of people do have trouble with the idea that love is a decision. I understand it for myself as the person creates a favorable environment for love to blossom as a feeling in his heart and mind. For example, if I meet a handsome new man who shows interest in me, that man starts to appear in my thoughts. I can have good thoughts or not so good thoughts about him. By allowing the good thoughts, allowing the idea of him to stimulate me in that way creates the love feeling in me. Maybe not for others, but for me, I can feel love long before I know a person well enough for him to actually merit that feeling. I have recognized my role in creating a nest for love to thrive in. Once that nest is created, feelings of love can come into my heart.

On the other hand, over 20 years of marriage, I hardened my heart to my husband. There was nothing he could do to soften it and allow those feelings to thrive. When I heard that love was a decision, I rejected the thought for a while. But week after week in the post sessions, the idea was hammered home. I didn't so much decide to love my husband as decide to soften my heart and stop criticizing. Stop keeping score of the bad. Start focusing on the good. Start allowing myself to be open to him.

As for the question of why should the other person try. I think we had a similar question in the big writing session. A lot of my answer was influenced by the fact that just 5 months before our home, that we had custom built, was partially destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. The home destruction analogy resonated very well with us. I could walk around our new home and imagine cracks in the walls and the roof hanging in when I thought about divorce. So I talked about the family that we had built, and how he belonged there, just as the children did. I remember describing the living room with a fire in the fireplace, and all of us laughing about something, and how he belonged in that scene. Not a new man. Not a man who wasn't the children's father. In my situation, I think my husband did need a feeling of belonging.

[confusedinpa]

A lot of people do have trouble with the idea that love is a decision. I understand it for myself as the person creates a favorable environment for love to blossom as a feeling in his heart and mind.

That's been an annoying part of my situation. My wife just this past weekend told me she knows that love is a choice. She just can't make that choice as she's been hurt so often that she can't see herself being vulnerable to me again.

Your comments on focusing on the negatives is oh so true. Everytime I try to talk about positive moments, recent or in the past, she always finds a negative to latch onto and drive into my heart. This is where it's getting old as in counseling last year I tried to bring up how negative she had gotten. IT DID NOT GO OVER WELL......

[breakaway]

I realize I need to make this about her, and you opened my eyes a little wider as to how important words really are, especially when we are on the phone and all other aspects of communication are cut off. When I said I love her, I really meant I want to be there for her, to make her feel loved and happy. Actually, I guess I made the false assumption that she does understand this part of the concept of love being a verb, something I do by carrying out loving acts of my affection.

And I want to clarify that I didn't mean you didn't feel those things, about her being loved and happy...but just in her present state how she may be interpreting some of your comments. Also, it may not be conscious thoughts I mean either...but an underlying feeling of I simply must escape to survive. It's interesting, isn't it...people can say "I love you" and that can mean a whole lot of different stuff!

And the whole thing about the trauma really was supposed to say "I love my kids and I want them to be happy, too". Again, I need to pay attention to the words I use.

Now think about this...does she love her kids? Does she want them to be happy? Whether you mean it that way or not, that's another thought that's going to be perceived as..."oh, so you love the kids but I don't?" Or if I do what I feel I have to then I don't love my kids? Careful careful careful....careful.

If my H said that to me the first thought I'd have is..oh you love the kids so much that you emotionally abused their mother for 15 years. Sorry, just that's what I'd think. Like it or not, you will have to eat a lot of that crow...now that you "get it" from a single weekend (remember how this looks from her perspective)...it's going to be tough for you to take the moral high ground about stuff like trauma. You've confessed to the emotional abuse. That doesn't get healed overnight.

I say all that with gentleness...I know you are really trying.

(((AN)))