PM Thread #4

[sandi2]

Hi PM, I just sent a long post and then lost it.... so I won't try to write another long one. However, I did want to respond to this:

And yes, if I do move, that would light a fire under him but I would do that only if 'I' want to do it for me and the kids, not to manipulate H.

I did mean exactly that when I was talking about the possibility of you moving back home, but may have failed to point it out. I do not believe in manipulation in anything.

I know you have a big decision and I will not pressure you b/c it is your life. However, if it would take that long to prepare for the move and you think you may need to have a "time frame", would it help distract you from the stitch a little bit by setting a time and begin working on the steps you would need to make to prepare for the move? If it takes that long, you may need to, unless it is a situation that cannot be reversed once it is put into motion. I can't think of anything that could not be reversed, but I don't know everything involved and it is none of my business.

PM, in reading your posts you sound like such a compassionate person who loves at such a deep level that we all can sit up and take notes from you. I see a lot of "grace" in your writings. I have to admire that. You do not sound at all like a weak person. Your strength shows through what you say. Your parents did a good job raising you! I hate that both you and your H live so far away from family. You may be right in that he fell into a mode of (lifestyle ?) at the work place. That seems to be happening a lot these days. So many marriages are being torn apart by A's at the office.

Well, my son has just come in, so I need to go. I'll talk soon

Sandi

[PositivelyMommy]

All right, I need everyone's two-cents on this one. Then I did a rash thing. ( I have not done anything rash in eight months and now don't know if I did the right thing or not.)

Background: I have been detaching for the last eight months, keeping to myself and not complaining to my H about anything that he does.

Before I left to visit my dad, I e-mailed him several things that were on the agenda for S since I was leaving him behind and only taking D on my trip. Reason being he has tests that cannot be taken at a later date. I e-mailed him three different times with different topics. Not one word of reply. So the night before I left, I called him ( and I haven't called him for the last eight months) and here is the convo:

Me: I just need some reassurance that S will be taken care of. That you will be here for him because I have e-mailed you and you have not replied, I didn't know if you were mad at me or anything.

H: I am not mad. I am looking forward to spending some boys time together with S. I just thought the e-mails didn't need a reply.

Me: OK. I just need to make sure S is taken care of while I am away because he is pretty upset to be left behind.

So fine, we left it at that. I got an e-mail from H two days later at my dad's to say that S is doing fine with his tests and that everything is OK. I did not reply, thinking that it didn't really need one. It's a father's privilege to look after their own offspring.

I came home last night, D really looking forward to seeing H and her brother. I can sense that H is fishing for compliments on his ability to take care of S. So while he was driving us back from the airport, I said things like, 'When I skyped S, his first response is to tell me what you and he has been doing the night before. I think he really enjoyed his time with you.' (Boy, do men need a lot of compliments) However, H kept checking his watch, I knew he had other plans but bad traffic is not my fault so I watched my body language, making sure I didn't look tense as well. I made small talk and basically asked S about his week.

Back home, H doesn't take off his jacket, he stays for 10 minutes and announces that he is leaving. My D took it well in stride. I roll around with the kids in bed to distract them. I thought we would spend tomorrow together like every weekend since separation so no matter. She can have a full 'family day' with everyone tomorrow. Then after later on, I put the kids to bed, I get an e-mail.

H: I will be travelling for work next week. I need to do some errands tomorrow and will be around at 3pm to see the kids.

My first reaction was to write an e-mail. But here is the rash thing, I was hot under the collar and I called him. I was upset because he rushed out of there as soon as D and I got home, can't wait to get away on his 'me-time', can't even wait an hour till the kids are in bed then he e-mails me to say that he won't be here tomorrow until the afternoon. He could have told me and the kids during the time in the car or at home. He was a wimp and decided to do it thru e-mail, what a coward! I kept my tone non-threatening and calm. Things did get heated up a bit in the middle but I really tried to keep my cool but felt that I had to let him know how I felt or I just would not respect myself and I would be depressed about what a wimp I was.
He is obviously in bar from the background noise of his mobile.

Me: I got your e-mail. I don't think you need to come over tomorrow.

H: Why?

Me: I don't like the way you handled this situation. We should have had a face-to-face, not an e-mail to say that you are going to be late tomorrow. This is not a hotel that you can come and go as you wish. We are your family and your are being disrespectful.

H: Uh... I can change my schedule around and be there for the kids. Are you mad at me for rushing out of the house tonight? I really am just meeting up some friends at a bar. ( I guess, as opposed to having romantic time with OW) I really have a few things I have to do tomorrow since I will be away next week.

Me: No, I am not begruding you of your time out. I am saying that I disagree with the way you handled things. You need to tell me and the kids what you are going to do instead of e-mailing me and then I have to explain to the kids. But you need to look at this from D's point of view. She was looking forward to spending time with you and S.

H: Oh... I am sorry. I was insensitive, I will try to handle things better next time. I really want to see the kids tomorrow.

Me: I am glad that you understand what I mean.

H: I really have been good with S. We've done many things together while you were away.

Me: I want you to know that I think you have done a great job with S while I was gone. I know that. It's obvious in the way that he talks about you when I skype. ( More compliments and validating)

H: Should I still come around tomorrow to see the kids?

Me: I am sure that D would love to see you tomorrow. You can come around if you want.

H: I really have some personal stuff I have to do before the trip and I will try to wrap things up earlier.

Me: OK. Bye.

I know, the 24 hour rule. I should not have called him while my emotions were high. But I couldn't let him treat me like a doormat and babysitter any longer. Like I have no other plans than to take care of the children and wait for him to grace us with his presence. He is totally taken advantage of me. Making plans the night I get back like of course, I would be here to look after the kids and put them to bed. Why wouldn't I? And not thinking of the feelings of his little girl. I feel like I am here to look after the kids so he can feel guilt-free to go drinking with his buds knowing that the kids are happy and taken care of. I think those are the duties of a wife, not a separated wife. I think he is taking a lot of things for granted. His continual need for me to acknowledge that he was a fantastic dad while I was away shows me that subconsciously he DESERVES a night out. It's twisted thinking. I am thinking, well, I had D the whole time as well. And anyway, why is taking care of the kids considered a task that DESERVES any reward? Isn't it a reward in itself? That's why it's twisted.

I am not adverse to complimenting him on doing a good job as a dad. I want him to build up his self-esteem so he gets pleasure and motivated to become an increasingly better father. What I object to is presumption that it is not his privilege or his duty to do it and so if he does look after them then he deserves a reward for it. But if that is so, then I would like a compliment on being a good mother from him as well. Why is it a 'given' that I should be a good mother and that I should thank him everytime that he is a good father????

I am comforted by the fact that he still cares about what I think. This shows me that he has not become totally indifferent to my feelings and opinions. That we still have SOME kind of connection. Where this connection will lead, I cannot predict. I want us to communicate and encourage, not fight. I thought our conversation last night was productive. I set a boundary. 'You should treat us with more respect. This house is not your hotel. We are your family.'

I will see how he behaves from now. If he thought the conversation was productive as well or if he sees it as 'more of the same', i.e. 'here she goes again, getting on my back about things, being a b*tch.' If he sees that it was productive and communication was achieved then I know that he has grown. Not all complaints are bad, some are done to promote better communication. But if he thinks that I am 'on him' again then I know that he cannot see beyond his own anger issues and him seeing me as a controlling authority figure who has to dictate to him. We will see.

Ok, Guys, give it to me.

[hope3343]

PM, here me clapping. No 2x4s here.
You have for 8 months been detaching, no demands, letting your H call all the shots. So for you to speak up after all that time is not "more of the same" but a 180 for you.

H wants to be a Dad, but only on his own agenda. your right we have to compliment them and say how great they are being, while we are the parent warriors that suffer in silence. What happens to our kids if we decide we do not want this responsibility. God knows that we are there and it is our privilage to take care of our children. We can't let them suffer in spite of everything going on.

You were not rude to him, you spoke of the Ds feelings and H had to validate that. So what you disturbed his night in a smoke filled bar. These men are acting like they are freshman that went off to college and are just going crazy.

I am in the same position as you -- I have no family around and they are 1900 miles away. One part of me wants to go back, my D wants to finish school here (she is a sophmore), but the loneliness is getting to me. I have friends here but there is such a void that I feel empty. I know the reason I am staying is I am praying for H to have an awakening. But my SIL told me the best thing I could do is pack up, move and let him come find me. I am scared that he will stay here with OW and never make that effort again.

I think you handled yourself well. You did not lose your temper or belittle him in any way. Hopefully it will give him pause and let him know it is not a hotel and you are not the innkeeper. My prayers are with you.

[PositivelyMommy]

Sandi and CIW, thanks so much for your kind words. I think I deserve happiness yes but right now my happiness is attached to my H and my immediate family. As a little girl, I have always wish to have an intact family of my own. (My parents are happily married for more than 40 years now. Not great R but pretty good considering it's been 40 years. They have had ups and downs.) So that was my BIG dream. To let go of that dream is extremely difficult for me. I want my H to be part of that dream but there is nothing I can do to make him. So I need patience and DB.

All of you out there who have written to me , your thoughtful words help because I try very very hard to be the kind of person that you both have described and to have that validated is so important to me. I know that our identities are secret here so we are able to say things we normally might not say to our friends face to face. But it is still extremely touching to have you all express these thoughts about me. Even on the web, it's nice to have these words in my head. Thank you.

[davidswife]

PM,

Well, good for you. You stood up for your family, your children, and they're your first responsibility.

Ofcourse you feel that he's taking advantage of you - HE IS!! I know you're willing to let that slide for now, but don't feel bad for feelings that are justified.

I applaud you - you're doing a great job hanging in there.

Keep up the good work!

Stacy

[Tawnya]

{{{PM}}} I too don't really think you did anything wrong in what you said..you actually were very kind and still validating while standing up for yourself at the same time (I don't know that I would have been that nice LOL)..

Tawnya

[karen43]

No 2by4s from me either. I think some of us tend to be maybe too passive, and I think for us assertiveness can be a good thing. My H has responded really well to that also. I think if you're not assertive, some people really will try to take advantage, and making clear your boundaries and what you will and won't tolerate is a good thing. (((((PM)))))

[Can it work]

I agree with what all the others have said PM and congratulate you on the way you handled that situation. What you said to him was completely justifiable and he needed to hear it. Good for you.

I'm afraid I can't post much tonight because it's late here but I'll catch up again tomorrow. Sweet dreams.

Kev

[hope3343]

PM, you touched a chord about how your parents have a 40 year M and counting.

My Dad died 3 months before my parent's 50th anniversary. He actually died on Father's day waiting to have bypass the following day. No one expected it. My mother and father were very dedicated to each other. I went to see him the night before, my mother as always was keeping vigil with him. I made her go grab some dinner. When she left my Dad said to me, "in case something happens to me, go get your Mom a 50th anniversary card from me and take her to dinner", I said "Dad you will be fine", he said just promise me. I did, and the next day he died.

When their anniversary, came I went out bought a beautiful card and as promised took her to dinner. I told her what my Dad had said. She cried but really appreciated it. It was 12 years ago and my Mom still loves him dearly (She is 85). That is love, that is dedication, that is the way I was raised.

Yes I understand. I want the same.

[PositivelyMommy]

Thanks and hugs to all of you, Davidswife, Tawnya, Karen, CIW, Hope. It was difficult being assertive because I think my H saw my assertiveness as control and I didn't want to have a major conflict with him again.

Hope, you msg made me cry. What a beautiful story about your Mom and Dad. He really really loved her. You mother must be a very happy woman to have the love inside of her. I envy her so. I don't think my H really loved me that way, EVER. I can't remember what it was like before now. But he didn't make a fuss about anniversaries at all. I was the one who used to give him an anniversary present and make arrangements for a dinner out. ( Lack of power, I am afraid.) I guess part of it was before I was the stay at home Mom and so I was responsible for House/kids/couples things. So I did it.

Here is an update:
So my H and I put the kids to sleep. I was thinking about our telephone convo a lot and my H seemed very down all day so I wanted to have a convo with him.

Me: I just wanted to make sure that you understand I am not trying to deny your time with friends, I want you to be happy.
H: I was just so busy at work that I did not have time to get myself organized. I should have been better organized. ( I.e. he should have had more time for the kids on Sunday and not show up at 3pm like he did) I will be travelling for the next two weeks and will be away in March as well.
Me: When you have time, can you e-mail me your schedule? (I.e. let me know so I know what to tell the kids when they ask where you are and which city you are in. )
H: OK.

We talked in the kitchen and He then continued to talk about his work for half an hour. He shared about the stressed and his successes and he said he is starting to interview (yes, Hope) to try to get a better position. I was very encouraging (as I was in the past as well, I was his biggest cheerleader) and told him that the current financial crisis maybe an opportunity in disguise and maybe he can even do better than before. He told me how some of his friends that I know are doing. He again shared that he had a good time with our S while I was away. In fact, he talked for half an hour non-stop, I couldn't get a word in. It all poured out of him. He made several attempts to turn around to walk out of the kitchen but turned around and talked some more. Some eye contact. I made my body language very relaxed and tried to be very encouraging. ( One of his previous complaints was that I do not approve of his work, which is not entirely true. I listened to him talk about his work for hours EVERY NIGHT and was encouraging and on his side of all his arguments with his colleagues. I was just not happy about the amount of time he spends at work and his lack of interest in the children.)

The talk was very reminicent of old times and I think he felt it too. I think it reminded us of our Good interactions. I don't know if he is the same way with OW but they work together so I don't know if they rehash everything again after work.

But it's good that I didn't see any negativity from him regarding our previous night's conversation ( not sure if he is hiding it well/suppressing again or what).

He even mentioned on taking the kids on a trip next year and told me about visiting his client with the kids because it was be fun for them.

He has mentioned that 'we get along fine' but he doesn't love me. I don't know. It doesn't seem that he hates me so much anymore which is good. But he doesn't love me enough to try to work things out. I know because of OW, he is not missing his companionship and getting a high from her.

Am I on the right track? Should I let him feel the friendship we had before to get him a taste of what we had so he doesn't think it was all bad and rewrite history? Or should I withold so that he would pursue? He has not been pursuing me at all and don't think he would with OW still in the picture.

The good thing is that if he changes jobs then maybe he won't work with OW everyday. But there is a good chance that he would take her with him as well. In fact, the more I think about it, of course he would bring her with him. OK, scrub that. They will probably still be working together but can be more open about the relationship because it's a new company and nobody there knows me and so he doesn't have to be ashamed of his R with OW. They can just present themselves as a couple who happen to work together. Maybe that's his plan so that he won't get in trouble with his current company and have embarassing confrontations. This way, in a new company they can start afresh and just be a happy couple. Interesting, will have to see how it pans out for them. I guess if 'society' exerts pressure on your R, then you change the 'society' that you are in, that solves the problem, presto!