Shine like the star you are!

[Yashie]

sage, despite this recent miscommunication (which happens in ALL marriages from time to time, happy or not), it sounds like things are going great. H is clearly connected with you and it sounds like this incident was more about his guilt over the affair than what you actually said.

Thanks for checking in on me from time to time. Keep up the great work you are doing and shine on!

[sage]

I don't know about "backslide". Learning to communicate about sensitive subjects isn't easy, and to be expected that there will be a lot of fumbling around in the learning process.

I hope your H can see the wisdom of reframing the subject as a process, and that he has a great deal to do with how long the process will take!

Tal -- Ah, your post reminded me of one of the biggest parts of the conflict/issue this time (that I conveniently forgot to mention!). One thing that h has said again and again is that the timing of when I bring this stuff up, well, stinks...and he's right. It's often when we're out someplace (or just gotten back from being someplace), usually after we've had a "good time", often late at night and often at the start of the weekend....

This is all true. I've spent some time reflecting on this...wondering why I bring these things up when I do...

Likely all of this is worthy of a separate post but...

I think I bring things up when we're out because I feel like I have a captive audience

I think I bring things up when things are going well because I get scared (it's "too good")

I think I bring things up when it's late at night because I hold it in as long as I can then kind of "explode".

I also stew on stuff for a while. In this case...while my comment WAS my reflecting on a feeling...TBH, it had also been brewing a bit...Brian's recent discovery that w was still in contact with OG had been on my mind. (not fair to h but true).

Why I bring things up at the start of a weekend is not clear...

All in all, I need to figure out how to initiate conversations with h at "better times". I think he's been trying to let me know that he IS willing to talk about things but would prefer different timing. I think I'd been stuck in the mode of him NOT being willing and therefore I think I'd been still feeling as though I needed to use "timing" to make an impact.

Sage

[sage]

I know myself I've tried to "get" h to assure me that this wont happen again...asked "how can we keep this from happening again" the first response I got was..."it wont"...that wasn't "good enough" for me...so I re-stated it...what can I or you or we do to ensure that it wont happen...h's response was "well if your doing something I don't like I'll speak up"..ok so thus far h has not "spoken up" (unless of course I'm complaining about him) so I suppose I should just take his word that he will speak up..

what were you looking for from h?
what did you get from h?

Hey LL,

well, first off the "how can we not have this happen again" part of the conversation was mired in a bit of confusion because when I asked I was talking about the A. and h thought I was talking about the argument...

What I was looking for from h was "a plan" -- some indication that he had thought about what had let up to the a (his noting of my behaviors, his noting of his behaviors, the early warning signs, etc). Something that says...look, I've really thought this thru and this is what I think went wrong and this is what I think we could have done to stop it and ....

What I got was "it won't".

I probed a bit around that and asked how he could know that. Also asked him if his assumption upon getting married was that he would be faithful (answer was "yes") so I indirectly tried to show that "it won't" might not be enough...

My anxiety around this part is HIGH. My only negative thoughts over the last few days have definitely been around "what happens next time I start feeling afraid of a r. that h develops?"

Of course, my ASSumptions that h would be unfaithful was one of the contributing factors to problems in our m....so, that mindset ain't gonna get me anywhere!

I DO think that we've got the tools to create "a plan" ... I just don't think it's gonna be as cut and dried as some folks might execute...I don't think it'll all come together at once...maybe it's something we could talk about in MC if we were doing that ... but since we're not, I think we're gonna have to "Piece" it together...

So many things contributed...we've got to figure out how to each feel as though we have "a voice" in the m. -- figure out how to articulate the good and the bad to each other in a way that still feels ok.

I still worry that h doesn't feel as though his feelings/wants/opinions are of equal value to mine in our m....Part of that is my failure...my running roughshod over him as a means of control...but part of it feels external to me and really is going to have to come from him. I think that the key for both of us is going to be trial and error (hopefully not too much error!)...the act of cautiously asserting ourselves (maybe respectfully is better than cautiously)and seeing that it's AOK with the other.

I'm still seeing myself "rushing" thru conversations with h and not listening as hard as I should be. I think there's a part of me that does that out of fear...part just distraction...anyway, I'm working hard at really listening to what's being said. I think that will give us building blocks.

So...despite the unsatisfactory nature of this weekend's conversation in terms on this "not happening again" I think we're going to be fine...it's just that it's gonna take small steps to get there instead of rolling out some giant blueprint.

Sage

[jethro]

Hi Sage.

One thing that h has said again and again is that the timing of when I bring this stuff up, well, stinks...and he's right. It's often when we're out someplace (or just gotten back from being someplace), usually after we've had a "good time", often late at night and often at the start of the weekend....

I do this too, but now (as opposed to the past) I internalize it... But I feel like these "feelings" get to me more when I'm spending more time with my W (thus, while we're out and such). Weird. But just being around her brings up all of the sh!t. Like going out to watch her sing Karaoke when that's how she met OM. As such, Karaoke reminds me of her A...even though she did it well before OM. Thus, going out to have fun reminds me of past misdeeds. I guess it comes down to focusing on making new and memorable memories, right?

I think that the key for both of us is going to be trial and error

To be a bit philosophical, isn't it always...with everyone? I believe that's just life, Sage, and that's how we gain wisdom. Each little event will bring you closer to understanding each other.

So...despite the unsatisfactory nature of this weekend's conversation in terms on this "not happening again" I think we're going to be fine...it's just that it's gonna take small steps to get there instead of rolling out some giant blueprint.

Well done, Sage.

jethro

[talitsa]

The "how to make sure this doesn't happen again" issue was one I brought up more than a few times, too.

His answer was that he would always be reminding himself that he never wanted to put me, or him, or our family through "this" again.

What I did with THAT statement was turn it around in my head so that it sounded like the deterant was just not to get CAUGHT at it.

Geeez...stinking thinking, huh?

What I really wanted to know is if he'd thought each step through, ever roadsign along the way to an A, every boundary crossed...and what he could have/would do differently.

Sage, don't you think H's like ours--the ones that go through all this and stay--working on their M's are far less likely than any other guy to do it again? Our fears are probably very disproportionate to the liklihood of our H's straying again.

I hadn't thought of the timing issue yet, until you brought it up....I'll have to watch to see if I'm doing some pattern that could be done in a better way. I have learned not to put Wolfie on the spot with questions--but just ask him to think about something and get back to me with his conclusions.

[shinybear]

Interesting run of posts there, folks.

About the timing, I suppose mine used to suck too, but CJ made it clear in an e-mail that he is most receptive when we're enjoying a nice dinner and glass of vino.

And believe it or not , CJ and I have never had the "how do we prevent this from happening again" discussion!!!

I think for him, like your H's, it's so fresh in his mind that he would very strongly say "it won't happen again!".

I also think that the fact that CJ IS speaking up, IS telling me when I'm being controlling and such, when he feels dismissed etc. IS our insurance against this happening again.

You see, he kept all of this inside before. And before I just blithely went along treating him poorly and expecting loyalty and love...WEEELLL, I know a little better now myself!

So in SOME ways, I can see how our S's feel that the dynamics have changed in such a way that the conditions for their A's no longer exist.

On the other hand (devil's advocate that I am) I can see your point about when we all married...we all thought that would NEVER happen, didn't we? (well, maybe not you Sage...damn your MOm makes me mad! ).

Still, I feel SO much better "armed", better informed, more in touch with myself and CJ than I did in those early years.

Shiny

[Trying24now]

Wow Sage Thank you...Thank you! When you said:

think I bring things up when we're out because I feel like I have a captive audience

I think I bring things up when things are going well because I get scared (it's "too good")

I think I bring things up when it's late at night because I hold it in as long as I can then kind of "explode".

I also stew on stuff for a while. In this case...while my comment WAS my reflecting on a feeling...TBH, it had also been brewing a bit...Brian's recent discovery that w was still in contact with OG had been on my mind. (not fair to h but true).

Why I bring things up at the start of a weekend is not clear...

All in all, I need to figure out how to initiate conversations with h at "better times". I think he's been trying to let me know that he IS willing to talk about things but would prefer different timing. I think I'd been stuck in the mode of him NOT being willing and therefore I think I'd been still feeling as though I needed to use "timing" to make an impact

You absolutely, positively spoke for ME too. I do exactly the same as you do. EXACTLY.
T2

[Trying24now]

I'm still seeing myself "rushing" thru conversations with h and not listening as hard as I should be. I think there's a part of me that does that out of fear...part just distraction...anyway, I'm working hard at really listening to what's being said. I think that will give us building blocks.

Okay Sage, now you're scaring me...YOU are obviously me LOL...I think I will turn my mind off completely because YOU apparently can think for both of us. My God how strange that you "say" exactly what I think...amazing!
T2

[sage]

I also think that the fact that CJ IS speaking up, IS telling me when I'm being controlling and such, when he feels dismissed etc. IS our insurance against this happening again.

I think that this is a real key to success! I think we'll get there too...

(well, maybe not you Sage...damn your MOm makes me mad! ).

Still, I feel SO much better "armed", better informed, more in touch with myself and CJ than I did in those early years.

Isn't it AMAZING???? The whole 180 and "doing what works" concepts are like godsends to me...(hey, Michele, if you're reading...THANK YOU!!!!)

Sage

[sage]

Okay Sage, now you're scaring me...YOU are obviously me LOL...I think I will turn my mind off completely because YOU apparently can think for both of us.
T2

This was laugh out loud funny.

I'm wondering if our h's have similar traits, too? I can relate to a lot of the folks here..but I've found that Talista + her h. seem to very much parallel me + my h.

Sage