Please, don't EVER feel silly for giving heart-felt advice. At least not with me. I appreciate it more than you ever know.
As for the strip-tease...well....whew. I have the perfect song in mind...but...wow. I do community theater, so one wouldn't think that this kind of thing would be so difficult...but I swear it would be easier for me to do it for an audience of 100 people who I didn't know, than for the one man I love with all my heart. Go figure. I will ponder this idea, though, make no mistake. If I ever do it, you'll be the first one I tell.
As for the Cloudnine post, this kind of approach has to become a way of life for you. It doesn't have to take several months...I think with Sooner it took about four weeks...and I think you've been able to wait that long before. The trick is to be able to repeat step one. It is my guess that repeating step one won't take as long as the first time around, but Sooner is still in the midst of the experiement, so we just all have to tune in and see what happens. Conversely, I don't think his third effort will take half as long as his second...then so on and so forth. But again, we'll all have to wait and see. But in the meantime, at least, he has come up with some really great stuff to keep himself busy, enjoy his life, and have some fun, all on his own terms.
It isn't something you try for awhile and then put aside. It's almost like you are trading places with your wife...she becomes the giver and you become the taker. Sometimes accepting graciously what other have to offer is the greatest gift we can give in return.
You can do this. I know you know how you want things to be, and golly, no one faults you for it...but there are many roads to the same city...you just keep going back to the one you are comfortable with...the most direct route...and you keep running into all those orange barrels. Get off the road, guy. Sometimes the back way is a bit slower, but you trade quickness for a view, hm?
Maybe you should talk with Sooner and see, guy to guy, how he thinks his approach is working. It may be too soon for him to tell yet, but I think he might be able to offer you some real valuable insights that I as a woman just can't articulate.
If nothing else, it gives you the opp. to be discuss an alternative route (since men seem to be so bad a taking directions....hee, hee).
While we're on the subject of guys taking directions, I'd like to pose a not-so hypothetical question. I'll make it multiple choice. You're having an argument with your spouse; choose your subject, as this doesn't matter. She gets increasingly upset, and then suddenly stands up and says, "Just leave me alone" and stalks off to the bedroom, slamming the door behind her. The most correct interpretation of this action is:
a) I'm so angry with you I could spit, and if you care about us you'll leave me alone until I can deal with you again.
b) I'm really hurt, and if you care about us you'll follow me into the bedroom and comfort me. [note: we are NOT talking about sex!]
c) Either a or b.
d) Neither a nor b.
e) None of the above.
Justify your answer. By the way, Corrie is not the only one who's welcome to respond. OK, I'm all ears.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Since this board is a BB and not real-time chat, I'll try to speed up the process a little; besides, it was something of a trick question. The most correct answer, at least according to my experience, is c) Either a or b. Anyone is free to dispute this, but please explain why I'm wrong (it certainly wouldn't be the first time).
You may have noticed that the "correct" actions required by these two answers are diametrically opposed. This being the case -- and unlike the previous question, I don't know the answer to this one -- how in the world do you distinguish when it is a) and when it is b)??? If you wonder as to my mindset on the state of play for this second part, just reference my signature quote. That pretty well sums it up. I do have one other I'll probably share in my next post. Looking forward to hearing from you (the collective "you").
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
The W is feeling scared and insecure because of the argument and she wants you to feel scared and insecure too and then you will pander to her until she feels better and loved again.
The correct thing to do is to find the inner strength to stop reacting to her. You need to take the actions that are right not what she wants you to do. Do the right thing. It is a good thing to make the first move and if you are at fault then yes apologise. But don't squirm round apologising 1000 times.
This is an example of changing yourself to change your spouse. When she sees you are not reacting to her normal methods she may not like it. She might get a little nasty. Stick to your guns and carry on being reasonable. Eventually she will see it is not working and she will have to change her ways. If you are acting in a better way this will make it a lot more likely for her to change to better ways too. Give her time, but don't back down.
If this is a real sitch hope that is some help. I have had to learn to stand up for myself and in the end it does bring you closer because you can be more yourself not so scared of what your partner thinks of you.
I agree with JiJi 100%. If your wife gets angry, that is her problem...just as when you get angry it is your problem. She should leave the room until she calms down...no one can have a constructive conversation in the middle of full-fledged anger.
Jiji said it so well, I don't think there is anything I can add to it.
Thanks; I'll have to spend some time digesting this one. Having both of you agree helps; I wonder what Cathy would say? Yes, this is a real sitch, has been happening less lately, but probably because we've been more detached from each other rather than that the problem has been resolved. Of course, I'm usually pretty upset by the time it reaches that point, so the "be reasonable" part is pretty tough (if not aready OBE at that point.
I guess part of the question, though, is determining what the "right" thing is. Sometimes I feel like the variant of the "tree in the forest" question I've heard: If a man says something in the forest, and there's no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong? Again referring to my tag line, sometimes I feel like I've tried, tried harder, done a 180, done a 120, done a 90, and gone orthogonal out of plane. She probably feels the same way. So what I'm still trying to figure out is when "x" can (and does) mean "x," "y," or "z," how do I know which it means [this time? Or would you still respond "refer back to previous answer?" Thanks!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
I would also agree with Jiji. My wife does this very thing to me. When I know in my heart that I’ve said something hurtful (most of the time without realizing until after it is said) I appologize. I’m not afraid to say sorry.
But when I truly believe I have not done wrong I let her run off until she’s thought about things. She usually doesn’t apologize for anything. Can’t seem to bring herself to admit fault. I’m getting over that too.
I used to be mortified when she would leave me alone in our bed, it still bothers me a little, I’d rather hug her and fall asleep caressing her hair or something but when she leaves I just roll over and enjoy having the whole bed to myself. Let her stew in her own anger.
One night I asked if it would be ok to ask if it would be ok to ask if it would be ok to ask for sex and she got pissed, said she never wanted to have sex again then bolted out of the room with the ol’ familiar door slam.
The next morning she came in the room after showering, gave me a kiss and asked me to hug her. I was fine with that. She then surprised and delighted me by asking me to touch her breasts! I certainly wasn’t expecting that! Unfortunately, that event only happened once.
In my wife’s case “A” is always the right answer, even if she might be thinking “B”. When in doubt always leave then alone, if you meddle you are more likely to dig a deeper hole.
Did you get the book Crucial Conversations yet? This is the kind of thing discussed in it. This was my ex's way of dealing with unpleasant conversations. He withdrew to keep from having to deal. It used to infuriate me, put me more into the conflict than I had been before because once he withdrew I was left with the original conflict and then, on top of that, trying to figure out how to get him to engage in solving the conflict. We were both reacting in ways that were very counter-productive to solving whatever the problem was.
I think instead of focusing on the fact that she has walked away you need to step back yourself and take a look at how you are choosing to fight your battles. Put some thought into how you can better verbalize how you feel. People withdraw from the verbal battles for a multitude of reasons. She may feel unsafe emotionally to go any further or she may realize that she is wrong and you are right and her pride won't let her admit to it. I'm not so sure figuring out her motive for withdrawing is as important as figuring out ways to discuss the problems that will come up with solutions is.
If she withdraws because she feels unsafe that doesn't mean that the way you are choosing to discuss the issue is wrong, it just means it is being discussed in a way that causes her to feel unsafe. Whatever her reason is for walking off and leaving you holding the bag is immaterial. The important thing is to figure out how to have these discussions in a way that leaves you both feeling like you have been heard and are working toward a solution together.
When an argument gets to the point that one person has walked off, you are both a party to it. You have both had input and you have both acted in ways that didn't get the problem solved. It's not an either or situation and most things in life aren't.
You are thinking that if she would only stop doing this or that things would be better, she is thinking if he would only stop doing this or that things would be better. You both want your sides heard and validated but you are both failing to choose a path that leads to that happening.
When she withdraws from you take it as a sign that the discussion has become dangerous and nothing is going to get resolved at this point. Don't pursue her into the bedroom, don't sit and stew over what you should do next. Take a breather and choose to pursue it from a different path next time.
I caution you this and it's something I had tons of trouble with. Don't allow yourself to feel resentment for her because she has chosen to retreat. Her reasons may not seem valid to you and she could very well be doing it to keep from having to face the issues BUT we all do that when we are not feeling safe to discuss the issues. Bottom line...leaving is something she needs to do and it's a sign that the communication between you to is not productive. Find a better way to communicate. Cathy
Quote: Sometimes I feel like the variant of the "tree in the forest" question I've heard: If a man says something in the forest, and there's no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?
There once was a man who said - God, Must think it exceedingly odd, When he finds that this tree, Still continues to be, When there's no-one about in the Quad.
Well I am not saying you really have to believe in God (although I am pretty sure she exists ) but you have to believe in your own moral code. Your actions should be motivated by that rather than the reaction they will get from anyone else. It's normally better to be kind and accepting but sometimes it is more compassionate not to give someone what they ask for. For example your kids would become very spoiled and unable to function in the real world if you did not ever discipline them. In the same way it is not really fair to your partner to allow them to treat you in a selfish and irrational manner. But in order for them to behave better it is necessary for you to behave better. You can't just shout and scold them. Well this is the theory and it does work but it's pretty hard to put into practise sometimes. See me cave in after about half an hours sulking!
I haven't gotten the book yet, although I'm pretty sure I got an email saying the order had been shipped. Otherwise you've given a lot to think about (as usual). W got back late Saturday night, and things have gone pretty well since then, hopefully we can keep it up. Thanks again!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
) but you have to believe in your own moral code. Your actions should be motivated by that rather than the reaction they will get from anyone else. It's normally better to be kind and accepting but sometimes it is more compassionate not to give someone what they ask for. For example your kids would become very spoiled and unable to function in the real world if you did not ever discipline them. In the same way it is not really fair to your partner to allow them to treat you in a selfish and irrational manner. But in order for them to behave better it is necessary for you to behave better. You can't just shout and scold them. Well this is the theory and it does work but it's pretty hard to put into practise sometimes. See me cave in after about half an hours sulking!