WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 2

[Coach]

CIPA, Make one of your goals to not kiss her and to get your wife to give you a kiss. Try it.
Cheers

[confusedinpa]

CIPA, Make one of your goals to not kiss her and to get your wife to give you a kiss. Try it.
Cheers

If you mean try it by don't give her one and wait for her, I guess I can give it a try. At times I think what I'm doing is getting through to her (if you read my post on page 10, it covers the radical ups and downs that I am experiencing), but then more often than not, the brutal reality hits me when she goes right back to WAW mode.

I've already stopped the I love you - and I don't think it has even registered in her mind. I think part of it is that she gets all the love and affection she wants/needs from the kids. It actually hurts me to see how affection and playful she is with the kids. I hate to say it, but I am jealous - particularly when they interupt the rare moments I think we may be connecting (but I need to remind myself that I am most likely imagining them out of wishful thinking).

She said that she had made her decision back in Sept and had wanted to let it sit in her head for 3-4 months before she actually filed. She said she tried to tell me 3 times, but she knew it didn't register as she could tell it went right through me. I knew something was off during the holidays, but I didn't ask. I just tried to overanalyze and rationalize it. I don't know if it would have made a difference if I did ask. I will never know.

My therapist is worried that I am going to try so hard that I will extinquish any love I have for her and it will impact my relationship with our kids. It's hard to believe, but it's just as hard for me to believe my wife would want to leave me. But she does and that's the reality.

I know I just need to keep trying to be the best person I can be and not shut down again, although at times I feel like it will be easiest so I won't feel anything again. But that would be the wrong thing to do. I still have 98 weeks to try before the divorce she filed happens.

It is hard to keep trying... but I must.

Thanks for all the support

[confusedinpa]

Just wondering if you checked it out with her that she wanted space. You may have assumed correctly but do make sure that you confirm your impressions with her.

I did check with her as she sat in the recliner. She had laid all the way back and pulled a blanket up high on her. I told her it I got the sense she needed some space. She said yes.

It's still very sad - I can thoroughly understand why she hurts so much as I get the same way when I just focus on the negatives. There is just so much now. It's hard to find the positives.

I know debating if there were any positives in the past at all is the wrong thing to do.

I am really trying to create positive experiences now. She's just so shut off to anything now.

I've been reading more about the emotional abuse topic. It's pretty scary. I didn't realize that was going on between her and I. I recognize the things I did that were so wrong. I'm struggling to figure out why.

I want to go home and tell her I'm sorry, but I know we're beyond that point. I need to grow as a person and show her that I've changed. She has said that she can forgive me, she just can't get past seeing me as the man she had loved and had totally thrown away everything that she gave me. Hurting her terribly in the process.

I do love her.

[shark]

I have not read your entire post but I wanted to give back and give some thought.

I was here two years ago and had some of the best people here help me and I did get back with my wife. TO make it simple my did not change at all and I did but also I did not change the MAJOR points that drove us away the first time. So I think NOW I am getting it right with what I know now. I honestly did not know. I have told my wife I never worked on them ever because I did not know and she seems to understand but is still on her way.


I started reading this every day or when I get upset so I can stay strong. AmyC once told me that if my wife does not get help then we would be back here. Well here we are and you know what this might just be my life with my wife. On and of and back and forth, who knows, I love her. What else can I say.

I can tell you this that the following list of items does work and it helps either way. I hope it reminds you of what you need to do.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc.
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make
matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it too......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life!
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the
conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or
short on words, but don't sound rude. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home!
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!)
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse
happiness and contentment. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time.
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse.
35. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[JDOllie]

CIP - our situations are very similar.

It is key that you noticed she needed space, and allowed her to confirm. Now, GIVE it to her.

[confusedinpa]

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc.
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it too......he/she will despise you for it.)

Did the beg/cry/plead/pursue/implore thing the first 2 weeks since she hit me with the divorce filing on Jan 9th. I also did the other things during that time period. I realized through this forum, as well as frank assessment of my situation, this hurt my attempts more. I spent the following week or so doing damage control

I'm still working on the calls piece of it - although now I wait until she text, emails or calls me first. Then I wait about 15-20 minutes before I respond - either with a text, email or call. Although I do answer when she calls.

I did stop the I Love You's once I realized what it was doing to her. I don't think she has even noticed. Very sad

6. Do not ask for help from family members.

Never did this - was tempted, but knew better

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness andbeing clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

I'm struggling with these 2. I still do 7, although it has dropped off to about once/week. I have the urge to do 8, and know I blew it with V-Day over the weekend (just did what I normally did) and know that with her B-Day coming up in 2 weeks I'm going feel the need to get her something (most likely a DVD season of Lost as that's what we've been watching every nite during our "Quality Time")

10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.

I don't intend on doing this, but part of our Quality time she shows me stuff on her facebook page. So I'm not sure if it's spying, but I did ask her about a message a guy posted that I thought was suspicious. I'll spare the details that I posted on page 10 of this thread, but she was mad that at such a ridculous accusation as she thought she would have to be an idiot to have something that public posted

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life!
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc.
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

I just started focusing on these over the last 2 weeks and seem to be getting better response. 14 is tough for me as I don't have may friends outside of our friends (they are all married with kids and don't know what's going on). I am working on getting a life - it very slow going.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words, but don't sound rude. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class.

During our dinner times, she's apt to start the conversations. When it's just our time (no kids), she's a little more reluctant. I usually try to ask open ended questions (not yes or no) or start with a question on something light.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home!

I had done this before the divorce filing. I have stopped since I knew it was something she hated (part of the controlling issue she had)

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse

She sees and is proud of my changes, but she can't get past the hurt/pain she feels to want me as a husband. Very painful to hear and she knows it. I keep telling her I am changing to make myself a better person. I don't think she fully believes it's just for me and I know she's skeptical if it's real/permanent.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!)

I try to be supportive and attentive and as loving as she will let me without "violating" the pursuing rule. I've told her and she sees that she has my undivided attention and that she sees that she is important to me (things that she hadn't felt for several years) - the lyrics to "Buy me a rose" really summarizes how she felt (she wrote it in a card for me last year) - of course I completely dismissed/missed what she was asking.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun.

I've been trying to maintain a postive and upbeat attitude. It's hard, but blogging/venting/getting support from this forum helps

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

This is especially hard as we have a custody hearing on Feb 24th.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

I had a backslide 2 weeks ago where I let her pull me into an argument. I appologized in the morning, but I know I lost some trust/belief because of it. It almost happened again last week, as I felt she was baiting me for an argument, but I composed myself so I validated, acknowledged and empathized with her instead.

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time.

This is especially hard on me as I'm not patient to begin with but with the divorce filing, it will be official in 98 weeks. Sounds like a long time, but to me, it's painfully short.

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse

I've really been focusing on these the last three or so weeks (I'm just starting week 6). She told me last Monday that she was really proud of my changes and sees that I'm more relaxed now. Yet in the same conversation she says that she just can't see loving me as a husband as I hurt her so badly. Very painful.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy.

I'm bad with this as I had gotten used to all the hugs/touches (my primary love language) that she had given me. I feel like my tanks are emptying so quickly.

32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse.
35. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

I have struggled with these as my emotions swings on her every word and action. I know I need to stay in control and calm and positive. I have asked for reassurances if the changes are noticable/good in her eyes. It's hard to stop as my secondary love language is verbal. I know I need to stay focused.

Thank you for putting everything back in front of me to get me focused again.

[confusedinpa]

Part of my angst is also related to how she says she feels that we've moved from roommates sharing a house to roommates that are friends.

How do we get past friends?

She said she's afraid to be vulnerable again as she can't get past the hurt that I've caused her to want me as a husband, or even decide to plant a new seed of love. Once she expressed sadness of ever having someone just hold her and kiss her and love her, especially since she now has "baggage". She know's that I want to be that person, she just can't accept it from me. I was actually she considered our 2 kids "baggage", but I didn't press that.

She's hurt because I made her feel lonely/abandoned as I ignored her and did not make her feel important or even interested in her. What most disturbing to me is how she felt that I was mean to her. At first I thought she was talking about how I was mean by ignoring her emotional needs, but this past few days she talked about how I would do things that she felt was mean.

The only thing she offered is when we would have people over and if I asked her for something and she didn't jump on it right away, I made the mean face. She would then feel really upset and not want to be there any more. She felt I was embarrassing her by making her look bad. I didn't realize that I did that, but I started to read more about emotional abuse (I just picked up the book Love without Hurt) and it really scares me.

I know this is a big issue and I need to make sure this is part of my 180 to give my marriage a chance. She's recognized that I haven't done anything like this in the last few weeks.

If anyone has any thoughts/experience with this, it would really help me.

I hope she brings it up in counseling tonite so we can talk more about it. I know I will bring it up in my therapy appointment (who is also our counselor).

She knows I bought the Love without Hurt book. I started to read the boot camp portion - seems very doable. I'm more concerned about how I didn't realize how I was doing it and why.

I really need help with this as I know I have no chance if I can't figure this out.

[Coach]

You are figuring it out because you are starting to listen to her and recognising how your actions have played a role in this. I have experience in this. Most of the men here do. Your actions - consistent, steady and loving will be key. Make the changes because they make you better man if she sees them great.
Just do your work on yourself and don't take her temperature to see if she is noticing you. Be confident in your actions - she is watching you whether she tells you or not. YOU ARE BEING WATCHED make no mistake and she is noticing. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

[MrBond]

CIPA,

Unfortunately your W is similar to mine in that they are in charge of their own hurt. She keeps bringing up the past as to how she can't get past what you did before. Well you know what? Tough!

The past is the past. She needs to move on and get over it. You can't and shouldn't keep trying to make up for what happened before. You're already doing everything you can.

She has to learn that you don't control her feelings, she does. If she feels like leaving you is the best option, she's dead wrong. All she's doing is running away from the problem just like my W. If she were to stop for a moment, forget about the past and honestly look to see what they have right here, right now, she wouldn't be leaving.

I'm sure that she wasn't in your marriage either and did things wrong. Did you linger on those? No. She needs to get over herself like she was perfect. She has to love herself first before expecting you to fulfill that need. I think it's trying to come out of her, but because you're there, you're an easy target to be the "source" of her misery.

It's obvious deep down she feels you two can work out. But, it's her own head that's preventing her. Overwhelm that side of her brain with compassion but dont' smother her. That's why I still say that letting her leave is the best way. Be the one to suggest and initiate it. From your recent posts, she's slowly slipping away anyway just like my W was. Then I kicked her out, set my boundaries and after awhile, she came back.

She still considers us "separated", but I feel that that's a defensive mechanism so that she can keep her emotions to herself. You'll run into the same thing but I really do feel you have a great shot at this. Just tell her that you love her so much that you are willing to let her go. It's tough and scary, but I think it needs to be done. She's obviously blaming you for more things each day.

Try reading "Love Must be Tough" by James Dobson. It explains it in detail. Good luck my friend.

[confusedinpa]

It's obvious deep down she feels you two can work out. But, it's her own head that's preventing her. Overwhelm that side of her brain with compassion but dont' smother her.

Stuck,

I'm not sure she feels that we can work it out - that's why I have so much anxiety/fear/panic. All I can say is I'd be a real wreck if it wasn't for this board. Posting and getting feedback, insight, support and encouragment is invaluable.

Ironically she has said she sees logically, it's a no brainer decision - to give the marriage another try. It's her emotional/heart that's stopping her.

That's one of the "fears" I have of her moving out. She has already said that during my business trips (last one was in early Dec) where I was gone for a week, it was the most relaxing and enjoyable week she had in some time. She said the kids were more relaxed as well.

My therapist (also our marriage counselor) has said don't do anything to help her move out as the counselor feels that she's at least very slightly conflicted. The reason for that is that she does cry when she talks about some of the hurt. Most women who have built up walls so thick that the husband will never get past have distanced themselves from the hurt so they are emotionless when they talk about it. My wife told me over the weekend how she cries almost everyday - whether about not having a good choice to make, or remembering a past hurt or just our current situation. She just doesn't feel vulnerable enough to do it in front of me.

Yet when she talks, she is very emotionless when she says that she can't find a reason to change her mind. She insists that as long as we are in the house together, she is still trying to find one. I just hope she really is......