WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 2

[confusedinpa]

Everyone here is always a voice of reason, hope and calm in this sea of chaos I'm in. My wife on her facebook page put down last Thurs - why does life have to be so complicated. I couldn't agree with her more.

I managed to achieve a calm and enjoy life attitude as I got home after picking up my son from school. My wife came home and I didn't offer a hug or a kiss. We had a nice dinner and talked like we had the last couple of weeks.

She brought up that her friend wanted to go to happy hour for my wife's B'day next week. I said that sounded fun (last year I got all mad about it since that was the day I had just come back from a weeklong trip). We then talked about how we hadn't gone to happy hour since our second son. I asked her if she wanted me to just pick up both kids or if she wanted me to go and leave early to pickup the kids or if she wanted to ask her mom to pick up both kids.

She said that I could go and go when it was time to pick up the kids since she wanted to ask her mom to watch the kids that Sat so we can go out for her Bday and celebrate a late Vday as well as on Mon so we can both go to counseling. I said that sounded like a good plan. Now I'm thinking I should just not go and let her have the space. I'm sure I can figure out how to get out of it.

We then talked some more and I wound up giving her a hug from behind and kissed her on the neck. We swayed a little while we did that the she turned and asked me to crack her back with a hug.

I know I have to keep up a postive attitude and keep on enjoying life. I do resolve to pick up one of your books tomorrow

Thanks for all your encouragement and advise!

Well it started out very positive and upbeat, but it must be a Thursday nite thing as we wound up having another tough conversation. The positive is that I didn't let myself get pulled in and have it escalate. I really focused on validating, I'm still having hard time between acknowledging and validating so any additional pointers will really be appreciated.

While we were watching Lost, she wound up resting her knee on mine. I didn't think much about it but then her foot wound up next to me again. I pulled it up on my lap and massaged/carressed it gently for a bit. When I stopped, she put her other leg/foot up and I massaged/carressed it as well. We wound up chatting and joking around a little bit. I thought it was very nice. I didn't try to hold her hand or hug or kiss her.

Towards the end of the show, she jokingly brought up how when she would try to talk to me, all I would say was "oh" with no emotion and was very disengaged. I joked back about it lightly as the show had just ended and we were starting to head upstairs.

When we got in bed, I tried to validate her feelings by telling her that I know she brought up the "oh" comment but I can see how hurtful it was and how it made her feel so alone and frustrated. She agreed. I tried the same about the "crazy" comment from the Weds nite, but it didn't go as well as she said she really didn't remember that entire conversation.

I made some comment during my validation of the "crazy" comment about how hard it must had been. She caught that right away and said it still is hard.

That's where I worked in that she is right about how hard it is now. It's hard for me now as it's frustating and hurts that the woman I love/married can't find it in her heart to forgive me. She said she can forgive me, but just can't stop seeing me as the person who hurt her so badly so it makes her want to leave.

She then said another issue is how we have had so few good times and so much bad times, that there doesn't seem to be much to build on. I said we do have 2 wonderful children together. She acknowledged that but then she went on to say how she gave me her love and I threw it all away. That was all that she could give me and felt that she wasted her best part of her life. She said that now that she has "baggage", she feels that she won't have a chance to experience that again.

It hurt me to hear her say that, but I just acknowledged how angry that must have made her feel. I tried to validate it, but I'm still really bad at that. I really needs some tips - i.e. specific examples - of how to validate.

I then told her I recognize that it's hard for her to try and find a reason to change her mind and that she feels that she has to choose the lessor of 2 evils (stay married or get a divorce).

I told her I'm continuing to work on myself because I need to and that's all I can do. This is entirely in her control and told her that if there is any time that she wants to talk or needs something to help her, I will be there.

She then made a comment about how she sees that I've changed, but some of the changes are making her wonder who is this person. She said that she's doesn't remember me ever acting like I am now. I asked her to explain as I didn't understand what she was talking about.

She said that in the past when she was sick, all I would do would is give her a hug to make her feel better. Now I show a lot of sympathy/empathy/emotion about how much I care and it concerns me. She also said I'm talking in softer tones now. It sounded like this was really confusing her. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Any comments?

Another thing that she said was an issue was about getting hurt again. I told her that I will continue to work on myself because I need to and will try my best not to hurt her again.

I also think she's down that tomorrow if V-Day. I'm taking the kids to the monster truck show in the afternoon. I had asked her what her plans were and she said she just going take some alone time. I asked why she wasn't going to see one of her girlfriends (her husband and son is going with me and my 2 boys to the monster truck). She said she was worried that she would ask how thing are going and she said she's not ready to talk to anyone about this - not sure if it means to talk about her filing the divorce or that she's trying to find a reason to change her mind or what?? She said her girlfriend wanted her to go over, but she didn't want to. I told her she doesn't have to do anything that she doesn't want to.

She said she just want to "hide" on Sat to avoid the whole V-Day thing. I told her if she didn't want to have a special dinner like we had planned together, then we shouldn't. I told her we shouldn't do it if she doesn't want to. She didn't respond/answer.

We did fall asleep together this time - she didn't storm out of the room to sleep in the family room. I guess that's a positive.

Any advice on the validation or comments on how things went?

Thanks

[confusedinpa]

She had woken up in slightly better spirits (it couldn't be any worse I guess).

She had started to stretch her back by sitting up and reaching for her toes. I asked if her back was bothering her. She said yes so I sat behind her and rubbed/massaged her back. Iasked if it felt good and she said yes it did. Afterwards, she laid on me (back to me) as I massaged her shoulders and arms.

Then one of us had to get up to get ready for work, so I told her I would get up first so she could sleep an extra 20 minutes. I gave her a kiss, which I knew crossed the line, as I could tell she wasn't ready for that. Oh well - still learning to control my own needs/impulses.

Anyway, before I left for work, she did come over and give me a hug. I don't think I made any moves to invite her, but I'm sure she just felt I wanted one. At least I didn't try to kiss her.

I'm still so confused as to the entire validation thing and am curious to others thoughts on how they think last nite went.

[spellfire]

First off, congrats on your progress. You have improved in many ways, and some of the things she is doing now are the direct result of this.

Please don't let the things I am about to say get you down, I am purposefully singling out some of the things you can work on. The vast majority of what you posted sounded pretty good.

The first thing is that you are still leading the conversation too much and looking for places to insert what you want her to hear, as opposed to letting her lead the conversation by providing a safe environment and space in the communication for her to do so.

Examples: a. she brought up the "oh" comment. You validated it. That's great, she is venting and seeing you acknowledge that it was hurtful, and by not doing that again she can maybe move past it. Then you try to lead her to the "crazy" comment. See why it didn't go as well? You tried force things instead of allowing her to decide what she needed to process.

b. "That's where I worked in that she is right about how hard it is now. It's hard for me now as it's frustating and hurts that the woman I love/married can't find it in her heart to forgive me. She said she can forgive me, but just can't stop seeing me as the person who hurt her so badly so it makes her want to leave."

Why work this in? why push her to think about how she can't forgive you, when she could be processing things that have hurt you and actually working towards eventual forgiveness? You needed to tell her that, but now is not a time to think about your needs. Now is the time to allow her to meet her own needs.

Validation: there is not much difference between validation and acknowledgment. It basically goes like this.

1. First you must provide a safe environment for her to vent. If there is any hostility, if you are feeling angry/resentful, or anything of that sort, back off and come back to it later.

2. Let her lead (as we already talked about). Let her set the topic and don't try to force her to talk about a specific subject. She knows best what hurts her most.

3. When she expresses that something hurt her, or angered her, or whatever you did that resulted in a negative reaction by her, you simply validate what she said. It doesn't matter if she is wrong or right, do not try to correct her, explain yourself, or defend yourself. For better or for worse, this is how she feels about it, your job is to let her know that you truly heard her and that her complaint is a valid one. "I understand." "I can see why you would feel that way." Make sense? As long as you are not correcting, explaining, defending you should be fine.

Eventually you may be able to explain to her how you feel about the subject, but now is not the time. Now, some will feel that this is just allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat, but this is not the case. You are not agreeing with her to keep the peace, you are simply acknowledging that she has this feeling and she has every right to feel this way, whether you agree in principle or not.

Okay this is getting long, so I will leave it at that. One last question (and please don't let it get you anxious, remember you can handle this) when was the last time she took action on the formal process of getting a D?

[MrBond]

What SF said.

While last night's progress was good, don't overanalyyze again. Her mood could change from hour to hour.

Keep up the giving her space. For me validation means to agree with what she says she believes and just apologize for the instances that she says she was the most hurt.

The reason for validation is to not contradict her beliefs. Once you do that, they start getting defensive. So even if you know something is not true, just agree and then move to another topic.

[confusedinpa]

One last question (and please don't let it get you anxious, remember you can handle this) when was the last time she took action on the formal process of getting a D?

She filed on Jan 9th. I was served on Jan 17th. We have a custody hearing that is scheduled on Jan 24th - that was set in motion when she filed on Jan 9th.

I think I see your point that she hasn't done anything although my therapist and lawyer feels that she is waiting for a custody agreement before she moves out.

I'm torn on this as my lawyer said that the custody hearing is not before a judge, but a meeting to see if she and I can come up with an agreement. My plan is to say that I really haven't given it any thought as I want to work this out. I'm afraid that will get her mad thinking I'm trying to control the situation. If I do that, it will be in front of a judge a couple of months later. My other plan is to say that I want to get a lawyer to advise me, which will have the same result - that it will go in front of a judge in a couple of months.

Either way I'm worried she will just get mad. I had asked her to consider postponing it - she's the only one who can as she's the one who filed, but she declined saying that she wants one in case she decides she can't stay in the same house any longer.

Very bad and sad

[confusedinpa]

She then made a comment about how she sees that I've changed, but some of the changes are making her wonder who is this person. She said that she's doesn't remember me ever acting like I am now. I asked her to explain as I didn't understand what she was talking about.

She said that in the past when she was sick, all I would do would is give her a hug to make her feel better. Now I show a lot of sympathy/empathy/emotion about how much I care and it concerns me. She also said I'm talking in softer tones now. It sounded like this was really confusing her. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Any comments?

This is one of the things that I'm struggling with as well. She isn't sure of who I am when I do the nice things. I had thought I was acting like I had when we first met, but now I'm not so sure. I guess, what's the "goal"? To become the person that she fell in love with when we first met (which I think was more selfish but confident and fun loving, it's actually been so long, I'm not sure if I remember) or to become the person that I think I need to be to show her that she has my full undivided attention and is important?

I think I know the answer to this one, but I'm just so confused at times.

[confusedinpa]

Spellfire and Stuck,

I appreciate the comments on validation. She had actually described it to me as well on Monday nite, where she said if a child is hurt, rather than just telling her that it will be alright but saying "Ouch, that looks like it really hurts. I hope it will get better soon." I didn't really get the difference but I think I am now. It's hard for me to figure out what the "validation" is for some of her statements.

I guess hindsight is 20/20 but I am assuming that when she said that she just can't get past seeing me as the person who hurt her so badly, I should have said, that I know how painful that is since you've felt hurt for such a long time so I can see how you feel angry instead of just I see how angry that makes you feel.

I'm guess I'm still learning.

I'm really worried about this weekend. Normally, I spend a couple of hours with friends on Friday to help me destress/de-anxiety so I can make it through the weekend. Since she needs me to pick up both kids today, I can't do that. I hope I will make it through.

Any thoughts/comments will definitely help

[spellfire]

I would say trying to get back to the confident, fun-loving person is the goal, not to suddenly try to be "Mr Sensitive Guy", who she is never met before and doesn't recognize. You can still do all the things we are recommending here, while re-discovering your old self.

Dealing with your anxiety will help this tremendously. You need to get to a place where you know you will be okay, no matter what happens.

[Dudess]

Towards the end of the show, she jokingly brought up how when she would try to talk to me, all I would say was "oh" with no emotion and was very disengaged. I joked back about it lightly as the show had just ended and we were starting to head upstairs.

When we got in bed, I tried to validate her feelings by telling her that I know she brought up the "oh" comment but I can see how hurtful it was and how it made her feel so alone and frustrated.

Nice work Confused. It's a good sign that she feels comfortable enough to bring up things that have hurt her.

It's hard for me now as it's frustating and hurts that the woman I love/married can't find it in her heart to forgive me. She said she can forgive me, but just can't stop seeing me as the person who hurt her so badly so it makes her want to leave.

I think those are two different, You can forgive someone, but still not want to be in relationship with them. If she can forgive you, then at least that impediment to healing and hope is taken care of.

She then said another issue is how we have had so few good times and so much bad times, that there doesn't seem to be much to build on. I said we do have 2 wonderful children together. She acknowledged that but then she went on to say how she gave me her love and I threw it all away. That was all that she could give me and felt that she wasted her best part of her life. She said that now that she has "baggage", she feels that she won't have a chance to experience that again.

I this instance, you jumped in quickly to remind her of good things rather than listen and understand her point of view and feelings first. I think it's okay to mention some things that have been good for you, and which you think may have been positive for her, but do it only after she has a chance to fully express her thoughts and feelings. Make sense?

I told her I'm continuing to work on myself because I need to and that's all I can do. This is entirely in her control and told her that if there is any time that she wants to talk or needs something to help her, I will be there.

Great. She is likely afraid that the changes she is seeing are only because she is on the way out and that she couldn't trust them to last if she stays with you. If you are doing it because you want to be a better person, then she may have more confidence your changes will last.

She then made a comment about how she sees that I've changed, but some of the changes are making her wonder who is this person. She said that she's doesn't remember me ever acting like I am now. I asked her to explain as I didn't understand what she was talking about.

She said that in the past when she was sick, all I would do would is give her a hug to make her feel better. Now I show a lot of sympathy/empathy/emotion about how much I care and it concerns me. She also said I'm talking in softer tones now. It sounded like this was really confusing her. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Any comments?

That's good that you asked her for more information so you could really understand.

It's a good thing that she is confused. She was sure she wanted to leave. Now she's confused about it. That's progress.

Keep up the giving her space. For me validation means to agree with what she says she believes and just apologize for the instances that she says she was the most hurt.

The reason for validation is to not contradict her beliefs. Once you do that, they start getting defensive. So even if you know something is not true, just agree and then move to another topic.

I disagree with Stuck about validation. I actually find the term 'validation' confusing in this context because it sort of sounds like saying "that's true". I think of it more in terms of empathy, i.e. putting yourself in the other person's shoes and understanding what they are thinking and feeling. You do not have to agree at all. In fact, your viewpoint and feelings may be very different.

I think it is fine, and even beneficial, to state how it was/is for you after you have fully listened and understood her. Sometimes, it can be harmful not to let her know what was going on with you.

For example, (and I'm making this up based on something you mentioned), if she said she was hurt by your comment during your first long dance because she thought you weren't enjoying dancing with her. It would be understandable that she might feel hurt if she was enjoying it and thought you wanted it to end. And it might also be healing if you told her you made the comment because you were feeling anxious because your hands were getting sweaty or you felt insecure about your dancing skills or something (but only if it is true). Then you could tell her that and it could put the incident in a new light.

IMO, the important thing is to show understanding for her point of view and caring about her feelings first. If you encounter defensiveness it is often because she doesn't feel like her feelings and point of view have been fully understood first. Stating your thoughts and your feelings is not contradicting hers, (as long as you really are talking about what you think and not what she thinks). No need to fake agreement and move on to another topic. Stay with what you are talking about for as long as need be.

There is a great section on communication skills in a book called "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns. There are lots of specific examples and practice exercises that might help you. He may even have a book more specifically about relationships that includes that part. I don't know.

[confusedinpa]

I know this is a long one so I appreciate your patience in reading it.

It was a nite of abrupt shifts. I guess that's starting to be the status quo

Originally she said that she would need to work late to finish some reports but then she called at 4:30 to say people didn't submit data to her so there wasn't anything to finish. So she said we could go out like we normally do as a family on Fri nites.

We wound up going out and had a nice dinner but the kids were wound up from too much sugar from their school VDay party. She was wearing a sweater today that made her body look really good, especially when she sat back in her chair, so I complimented her on that. It seemed like it made her uncomfortable so she hunched back over. Strike 1

When we had gotten home, she saw the flowers and candy I got her for Vday. She said thank you and gave me a hug but I could tell she was irked by them. I know its pursuing but I felt like I had no right answer for this. I knew if I did nothing, she would think I was ignoring her. So I did the "norm" of what I did every year. I got a funny card that joked about some of the behaviors that annoyed her in the past.

When I saw that she wasn't happy about the flowers, we talked about it after the kids went to bed. I appologized by acknowledging that she had said Thurs nite she didn't feel like celebrating Vday. I tried to explain how I wasn't trying to celebrate anything but got her flowers because I knew she liked them and candy because I know she liked chocolate and a funny card to make her laugh. She said she liked the smell of the flowers but she says that I get the same brand of chocolate every year and she hates that brand. Strike 2

Then we were back on the internet where she was showing funny pictures and videos her friends posted on her facebook page. Then I noticed a post on her wall from a guy that said just name the time and place. I asked who he was and she was irked. She clicked through to show how he was married with 2 kids and she then was offended that I would think she would be "interested" in a guy that looked like that. I said in the past I wouldn't have said anything and just became more withdrawn but didn't want to do that

She then went on how riduculous it would have been if it was as the post was on the wall that all her friends (including me) could see. Strike 3.

Not one to give up, when were done on the internet, we sat down on the sofa and we started talking. She then vented on a few more issues which had made her mad/angry/hurt/alone to the point where she filed for divorce.

I tried to validate but it didn't seem to go as well as last nite.

We wound up talking about how she felt like she has no one to talk to. She feels there were 2 friends she confides in. One is divorced and she is very anti divorce (Yeah!). Ironically that was the one I told her I didn't like her hanging out with last year (because of my wrong misconceptions). The second one is happily married that said she will support her whatever happens.

I told her I would love to have her talk to me whenever she's comfortable but I know that's awkward for her. I said its important to talk. I then told her how I talk to one friend, who talked about how work stress negatively affect her marriage. I acknowledged how my wife has expressed frustration with her job but I didn't listen. I had vented about my job in the past so she knows about that. I went on to tell her how they both changed jobs over the past year and it really helped their marriage.

My wife got perturbed as to who this person was and why I felt I could talk to her. I explained she has also been married for 9.5 years and suffered for post partum with her 1.5 year old. She then went into how did I have time to talk to her and how often. She vented about how would I react if she was talking to a guy about her problems. Strike 4

It got late so we went to bed. As soon as she laid down, she complained about how full her stomach was. We still talked some more though. She started by saying another reason tomorrow is hard (besides Vday) is that she said 2 years ago when I went with my kids and her married friends husband to the monster truck show, she had a disturbing conversation with her friend. She was venting her frustration when her friend asked if what she would do if it wasn't for the kids. She said she immediately said leave. So tomorrow's monster truck show is another reminder of that Strike 5

She then went on about how I never appologized for the emotional hurts I did. I tried to validate that as well. It didn't go very well

She then went on about how disturbing is that I changed so quickly. When she tells her divorced friend, she says that's so nice and great. But my wife says she's so unsure of it as it was so sudden and abrubt so she's skeptical. However her divorced friend tells her how frustrating it is for her to see how well her ex-husband treats his girlfriend now that he gets it,

I tried to validate and told her I'm doing this for me as I know we can't work on the relationship together if I don't work on me first.

Then we got onto the topic of happy hour for her Bday. I told her that I appreciated her inviting me and would love to go but if she really didn't want me there I would understand.

She started with saying she felt that if I was there for a little at least I would know that it wasn't anything that I need to get upset about (I always thought when she went there was another motive - other than to destress). I told her it was her Bday so she should do what she wants. I would love to spend it with her, either just the 2 of us or as a family.

Then we started talking about hugs/touching. She said she's really uncomfortable when I touch her in bed as what the bed represents. I didn't say much to that.

Anyway, she got up because her stomach was hurting too much (she thinks from food) and is back in the family.

Sigh

very confusing

I'm really losing hope as I don't see how this is helping or working. I'm afraid the longer this goes on, the more cemented she will be in the divorce. Why didn't I get it before she filed!?!? I know she's frustrated with that as well.