WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 2

[Coach]

I'm really hung up on her statement last nite. It's really frustrating

She sees how I'm a much better person now and will be a great father. She just can't get beyond the past to see me as her husband.

Patience. Just keep doing the things that are positive for you and she is noticing. In the present keep working on being the best CIPA for yourself. She can get past it you have to wait for her to do it herself.

Is this the kiss of death?

NO. Stop thinking things are permanent. Mandatory reading for you - Look up "Learned Optimsim" by Martin Seligman. It will help you.
You can handle it.

Cheers
Coach

[confusedinpa]

I am really trying to stay positive - I'm generally much more upbeat when I'm around her.

Part of my angst is that the divorce clock is still ticking - we actually have a custody hearing in 2 weeks. In PA, a divorce is final 2 years after filing (90 days if both parties agree).

It's just that over the last four weeks, we seemed to have actually gotten further apart. She went from thinking about a chance to try again to finding a reason to change her mind.

She had acknowledged that it wasn't that long ago (maybe 4 months ago) that she still wanted the marriage. It's just that her desire/want for it has been chipped away all the years that it's gone. Now she says she's given up on it since she's been trying for such a long time.

I do recognize nothing is permanent. Our relationship is unfortunately the most glaring sign of that. I know I need to give her a reason to want to change again. I know I have changed. I know she sees the change. I know she needs to believe the change and that will take time.

Knowing all these things doesn't make it any easier to be strong though. That's why I'm here - to get the feedback and support of the folks here who are going through the same thing.

Thanks for listening/reading

[spellfire]

Yeah, don't panic. My W was saying almost exactly the same thing. You can't go from all that hurt to okay again in a few weeks.

I'm glad you are pulling back on the smothering with hugs and kisses thing. Ask yourself, are the hugs and kisses a gift from you to her, or are they you needing to feel connected? Small kisses at appropriate times, and casual non-sexual touching will keep that subconscious connection without making her feel overwhelmed.

Your GAL activities sound good. Part of my GAL that really helped was reading books dedicated to working on me, and not on the R.

I have recommended a few books to you already. I recommend you order them today and get reading. This is one of the easier GAL activities, so please take advantage of it.

Based on your posts here, the following would be my recommendations. With Coach's book added, it gives you loads of material dedicated just to you:

"No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover
"Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida
"Hold on to Your N.U.T.S." by Wayne Levine
"Getting Real" by Susan Campbell
"Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman

[confusedinpa]

Mike,

Thanks for summarizing the your list of books. I'll try to do that.

I had thought GAL was going out and literally starting a new life (i.e. being out and about bars/clubs/friends/etc.). I hadn't realize it was just about doing things for yourself/family that isn't about trying to save the relationship (if I understood your posts).

Guess I'll have to reread that section of the book.

I see your point of the hugs and kisses (small pecks) as my way to stay/feel connected. I usually get the urge when I'm ready to throw my hands up and give up trying as I get so frustrated at times.

I never imagined that our marriage would lead to this. She said the same last nite in counseling. I had almost wanted to jump up and down and say so why did you give up and file for divorce, but I didn't.

During counseling last nite, when she was talking about all the hurtful things, I was trying to show how strong I was (the wall analogy). I tried to hold back my hurt/pain but acknowledged her feelings. The counselor called me out on this at the end of the session how it looked like I was trying to remain emotionless. I told her I was far from it and that it was taking every bit of my self-control not to just grab her, hug her and tell her how much I love her and how sorry I was. She then told me to replace the her with you and say it directly to my wife. Of course I jumped at the chance because I stopped saying it about 1-2 weeks ago when I finally understood the I love you's were not helping.

I had to control myself to not let it spiral into a Hallmark moment (which my wife had gotten really annoyed about during the first 2 weeks). Not sure if it helped or hurt, but I felt better saying it. She did look me in the eye and I'm sure I imagined that there was a little emotion in her eyes.

Another thing that the counselor had called me out on is that shes sees that my natural tendancy is to be a stable loyal provider. She thought that's one of the things that my wife was looking for because of her father issues.

The early parts of our relationship was full of the passion typical of relationships and that met her emotional connections needs. Unfortunately, when the passion part of the relationship fades after the first couple of years, she wasn't getting the emotional connection needs from me and couldn't communicate/get through to me. I couldn't argue with that, nor did I try.

She did leave it that it's something that I need to work on (we actually scheduled my one on one with her right after the session, as well as our joint one for next Monday).

She then also called out my wife that she needs to work on her anger issues and her inability to communicate them. I'm sure this ticked off my wife. I just hope she goes again next Monday.

We are planning on having a nice dinner at home (she's planning on making Filet's) next Sat nite for V-day. We are also planning on going on the following Sat Feb 21st to celebrate a late V-Day and early B'Day for her. I had asked her if there was anything in particular she would want for V-day. She pointed out some earings (under $20) - I had expected her to ask for something extravagant as that's what I thought she wanted, boy did I miss that boat too. She know's that I've started looking at the 5 languages of love book on the internet, so I'm pretty sure that's what I'm getting from her for V-Day.

Yet, we still have the custody hearing on the 24th of this month.

Very odd and confusing.

I do appreciate all the support and having this forum available to vent/blog really helps.

[MrBond]

I'm glad the C session went well.

One thing I cannot stress enough is that you've got to loosen your emotional hold on your W. She sounds exactly like mine and the more I held onto her, the more distant she became. She has alot of unresolved anger issues with her WAW father and other male figures in her life. It was only when I let go that she came to grips with some of her problems. And she's refused to go to C. At least your W has that.

Rather than pushing for a D, I would suggest you recommend a S. Tell your W that out of respect for you that's the least she could do. It will give you both a chance to sort out your problems on your own without the constant push and pull you are going through with each other.

My W was hell bent on a D and I recommended a S. It was tough but it was much better than D. If you or her have any objections about it due to money reasons or whatever, just think. Is D going to be any better in those terms?

I think one of the worst things your C did was to tell you to tell your W you love her. That's what you've been doing all this time and it hasn't gotten you anywhere. Trust me, your W knows and no amount of repetition is going to make her change her mind.

She has to WANT the R. Not be pressured into it by you.

Sorry just my 2 cents. I just see you repeating many of the mistakes I was and wish I had someone to tell me the same when I was going through everything.

Good luck guy.

[spellfire]

I had thought GAL was going out and literally starting a new life (i.e. being out and about bars/clubs/friends/etc.). I hadn't realize it was just about doing things for yourself/family that isn't about trying to save the relationship (if I understood your posts).

Guess I'll have to reread that section of the book.

Initially that's how I interpreted it too, but after being here a while my perspective has changed. GAL to me means that you no longer plan all your time around your family, and you have a life of your own. That can be going out with your buddies, or it can be sitting at home reading a book, the point being that it is your life and your time, and it is just for you.

During counseling last nite, when she was talking about all the hurtful things, I was trying to show how strong I was (the wall analogy).

The wall analogy is that you are a wall and you do not crumble when she tests you or tries to "punch holes in your wall" with hurtful comments, or comments about not knowing if she can feel something for you again. Do not confuse this with building a wall around yourself and not letting her in, or not being emotionally open to her. You do not have to appear stoic/emotionless/cold. Your job as "the wall" (or "the rock" if you read hold on to your NUTS) is to not get sucked into arguing, not break down and go into pursuit mode, and to not shut down emotionally and shut her out. Being the wall means being strong and therefore able to support her fully, even in the face of her losing it, being hurtful, or testing your resolve. You show how strong you are by being open to her, truly listening and validating, and supporting her regardless.

She then also called out my wife that she needs to work on her anger issues and her inability to communicate them. I'm sure this ticked off my wife. I just hope she goes again next Monday.

A bit blunt, especially knowing she is angry. It would be better to try to get W to discuss why she is angry than just saying you got some anger issues you need to work on.

Yet, we still have the custody hearing on the 24th of this month. Very odd and confusing.

She is confused. You really need to accept this fact. Do not fight her on the process, but try to stall/draw it out if you can so that you have more time to DB. I have heard that many W go through the motions and then don't have the guts to complete, but I don't really have experience with this to back it up.

[confusedinpa]

I'm glad the C session went well.

One thing I cannot stress enough is that you've got to loosen your emotional hold on your W.

I'm actually not sure that the counseling session went well at all. We seem to be focused so much on what caused her pain/hurt. Her anger/resentment during our first dance due to my "joke" of long song really hurt her. I thought that was going to be the nail in my coffin.

What do you mean about losen my emotional hold on my wife? I think I had done just that over the past several years is what got me in the bind.

I did try the separation discussion last Thurs nite, but it didn't really get me anywhere. She got really mad about it and slept on the couch that nite. I guess I'll have to try again. She just didn't want to be in "limbo" for such a long time - she's already frustrated that I don't agree and it will take 2 years.

I was actually surprised my counselor said I should say it to my wife as well.

I do appreciate learning from your experience.

Thanks

[MrBond]

I massaged her shoulders lightly as we did that.

When we went to bed, I did give her a light kiss - I could tell she's still uncomfortable with that and before everyone jumps on that one, I know I need to stop :p

We talked a little about the session - she asked that there was one part that she was uncertain of. When she was venting, she expressed some concern about how I would say that it made me sad/hurt. The therapist had said that's ok, as I need to feel that. She asked me what I thought that meant.

I walked over to her side and gave her a light kiss (I know still bad, but at least I stopped climbing almost on top of her to give her the kiss). We talked for a few seconds, but she did reach out and touch my arm as we talked. This was the first time in weeks that she did that. I'm trying not to read any more into this as it was probably just to try and comfort me (I was trying not to talk or act needy, but she does read/know me so well).

I gave her a hug to crack her back before I left for work and just got a check for a kiss.

Sorry I'm still getting the hang of putting several quotes in the same post. I deleted the extra stuff and just left the quotes where I think you showed that you are emotionally tied to her.

Especially the hugging and your quote that you "just got a cheek for a kiss". That shows your neediness again and that you "expect" her to give you more than she is willing to right now.

I know it's really really hard to not put her top of mind, but loosen up a bit and let her think things out on her own. Yes it will seem like you two are drifting apart, but she needs that for her own self-discovery. It's obvious she sees there are issues with herself so let her figure it out herself. How would you like it if you wanted to be left alone with your thoughts but kept having someone hanging around you asking if you were okay. It would get pretty irritating.

You had a great interaction, leave it at that. Build on positive new experiences since she sees the past as bad. And give her loving space when she needs it.

This doesn't mean go ahead and hit all the singles bars. It means get a hobby and build up yourself and your self-esteem.

[confusedinpa]

Initially that's how I interpreted it too, but after being here a while my perspective has changed. GAL to me means that you no longer plan all your time around your family, and you have a life of your own. That can be going out with your buddies, or it can be sitting at home reading a book, the point being that it is your life and your time, and it is just for you.

She is confused. You really need to accept this fact. Do not fight her on the process, but try to stall/draw it out if you can so that you have more time to DB. I have heard that many W go through the motions and then don't have the guts to complete, but I don't really have experience with this to back it up.

That makes a lot of sense for getting a life. I'll have to keep that in perspective.

I hope she really is confused. She speaks with a lot of clarify that she wants to leave. She does seems sad when she says it sometimes. Her actions are showing more and more of distancing herself from me - less responsive.

It does hurt when she doesn't respond or when I hear her say that she can't see me as her husband. I know I caused her a lot of hurt.

I'm worried if I stall/draw out the process, it will just get her angrier as she will feel that I'm trying to control her again (which is one of her issues). My lawyer said I can easily push it out another couple of months. I had asked her to postpone it (only she can as she is the one who filed), but that was the nite she got really angry at me when I also brought up seperation instead. In PA, there is not really a legal form of separation. It's either married or divorced. I think that's why there is a 2 year waiting period.

I just have to really maximize my efforts over the next couple of weeks and hope for the best.

[MrBond]

Don't maximize anything. Just get a S and let her simmer her feelings down a bit.