Jayce's thread

[Cinco]

Jayce, they lock the threads at > 100 posts. Something about the board works better if they don't let them get too large. I'll start a new one shortly.

Cinco

[Jayce]

Aha. I figured it was something like that.

Catching up on recent posts, you & Diane (& I) asked "Why don't you want to have sex?" All 3 partners said "I don't know." We got ourselves stuck going in circles trying to figure it out for them.

But we needed to move on to the next question: "Why don't you want to find out why you don't want sex? They didn't want counseling, wouldn't talk about it, refused to ask Dr, so how can there be any progress? As I told my H, "I want you to want me." Of course he got that but it changed nothing. I realized my request was "I want you to want to want me." I want you to care that your libido is gone. To say its gone, I don't care, and the heck with it is not fair to our partnership. It isn't for him to decide MY sex life is over.

As you recall from my rants & tears, it took a ton of work on my part to find possible answers. Including medical related research & making Dr. appts. & standing the flak to get him to go & speak the embarrasing words to the Dr. I paid in living thru tantrums, sulking, anger, until he got that I believe its a team effort & we're in it together. Its not a personal attack. That he's a good guy & wouldn't hurt me on purpose.

Ask the next question. Why don't you want to find out why? Knowing they are causing their beloved spouse so much pain? Worst case is they can't stand us & don't want to tell us that. Luckily that wasn't the answer I got. When H finally understood how much I despaired of a sexless future, and that it was worth the effort & embarrassment to try to find out & fix it, slowly, he improved. I still don't think he has all that much desire, but he's into the enjoyment again and initiates often enough to make me optimistic about the future.

You may have to do something similar. Kind of like a one-man intervention. Make plans. Insist. They don't like to be pressured, so not doing it for awhile then starting up again isn't going to work. Because the pressure is intermittent, they're able to ride it out till you stop & they can ignore it again. Ask the question-Why don't you want to figure out why you have no desire? Say "I need you to find out." because "I can't live without being intimate with you."

I didn't do it until last summer. Why? I knew there would be tantrums, anger, yelling, sulking, sniping and I hate living like that. Then came the ED and more "Oh well, nothing I can do about that." He tends to be a quitter & I'm so not. Its been worth the fight. Plus he now knows for sure I love him & care about his health & the quality of his life. It was tough, but being able to gripe & moan & have you guys' advice and sympathy on this forum made it possible.

We're all here to help each other throught the tough parts. So ask the next question.
J

[diane74]

Good point Jayce, and in my next reply, i will ask those questions. I am waiting for reply #2 as it stands now , so I don't want to overwhelm him.

[Jayce]

Yeah, I get that. The books I've read seem to agree that guys focus on one thing at a time. They can't do 2 things at once very well. (Explaining why my H turns down the car radio at the drive-up ATM which strikes me funny & I laugh & he gets miffed)So we do have to space our questions out far enough not to confuse them LOL

Humor aside, I know we can't bombard them with it all at once. Once we break out of the circle with new questions, we risk the ultimate impasse: One says, "If you loved me, you'd have sex w/me more often." and the other says "If you loved me you wouldn't make me have sex more often." If the second partner is quick enough to shoot that second statement right back rather than thinking of it later, instead of a circle, now there's a head to head standoff. The only good outcome would be if they have enough sense of humor to burst out laughing at that point.

Do any of us still have a sense of humor? Can we do the 'laugh so you don't cry' thing? Cartoon in last week's paper: little girl goes to school janitor complaining that kid in library is playing computer games & the sound effects are disturbing her. He gets her a pair of sound deadening earmuffs & says "This ought to solve the problem". She says "I didn't want to solve anything, I just wanted to tattle."

Our partners probably resist counseling cuz they figure we want to tattle rather than solve. As good an excuse as any, I guess.
J

[diane74]

I agree, and to add to that, the resist counseling cause they don't want to face what they should to heal...

[Jayce]

Hi Diane.

Yeah, facing anything that is a threat to ego or self-image is hard enough. I wish it didn't get the little kid responses, "You're always picking on me. I'm never good enough. I never do anything right."

Facing something frightening from the past is a much worse challenge. Or just facing any long standing feelings, habits and finding them negative, outdated, ignorant, or problematic is even worse. What guy wants to feel ignorant? Or risk having a crying jag in front of another adult male even if it is a shrink? I have empathy with that, but I still think some people need to do it to get to a full, satisfying life.

Just simple common sense disappears when something might be emotional. We're back to H having no signals again. I suggested ML Sat nite & got no response. (He says he said "sure") Sun. we went to a horse thing in the aft. TV after dinner. Reruns so I read a book. After a couple hours he sat next to me for about half hour then went back to his chair. Both evenings when he was talking about what to watch next I suggested turning the thing off & going to bed (big smile). As usual, he didn't answer & left it on. Around 10:30 he went to get ready for bed. Didn't say anything. I was really bummed by that time. Sun. nite. Last possible minute & no invitation. I turned up for bed w/kleenex, flannels on & book. He watched silently. Notice I was almost in tears? Nope. A few min later I turned out the light & he rolled over the other way. I sat up and said in more polite words, WTF?? Outcome, he said "I thought we were going to ML tonite." How the h*** was I suppose to know that!? so I made him talk under duress. Again with the "what am I supposed to do? & you're picking on me". Jeeeeeezz.

Common sense idea: if he did say "sure" what's next? sitting there waiting for me to do what? How about getting up, walking over & kissing me, hugging me, turning off that @#$%^&* TV? Another idea, last nite, I asked him what I do before ML. He had no idea. I reminded him he could have lit a candle, turned the bedroom light down, been undressed. The signal I get is he's hoping I won't initiate. He "thought" we were going to?? Not he "wanted to"? I asked him why he expects me to initiate considering I'm the one who tends to get rejected where he never does if he initiates. I asked him if he has recovered any libido. He doesn't know but he thinks so. I couldn't help it by then. I reminded him he still isn't talking about how he feels about sex. In general, specifically, with me, whatever. I said a couple things in the line of "so you think..." and "you must be doing this cuz..." and got his usual trump card: "You're trying to analyze me" (ya think?) to which I said if he doesn't tell me, what does he expect me to think? If you can't talk about it, how about at least a clue, like multiple choice, pick one of my guesses that's close. I asked him why I'm the one who has to refill his "pill" script & if he's embarrassed to do it. Then he griped about the price. (A little tip, guys, WRONG comment)I'm evidently so not worth it.

Sorry to be ranting again, but I'm so #$%^ bummed today. His first words were "I spent all day with you" Like that's currency? A tradeoff? Like he only has to do one nice thing a day? No, said he didn't mean it that way. He volunteered to go to the horse event. He thought it was interesting. We got along fine. For once I wasn't worried about him complaining since it was his idea. We were having a nice day. Until later.

When I've explained clearly more than once in the past, how does he not get that silent TV watching is a, not a signal; b, not foreplay; and c, not turning either one of us on?? Where is the common sense? Even if he did say "sure" Sat., where's the enthusiasm? Why's the TV still on & he sits passively not even turning his head in my direction? (That may be a characteristic of a passive-aggressive, but I'm not so sure. Either way, it stinks). What did he expect to happen? So he got mad because I cried & claimed he couldn't fall asleep. Yelled at me that he'd never have sex w/me again. His worst threat? Hit me where he knows it'll hurt? After he hurt my feelings in the first place?

This morning he did his usual testing the water by trying some banal conversation to see if I would talk. (No, I'm not over it-no I don't want to talk about the laundry). I didn't say more than half a dozen words. Didn't stay in the room w/him. I wish I had someplace to go so I wouldn't be home tonite when he gets home from work, but I'm in such a bad mood, I don't want to inflict myself on anyone.

He read another 9-count'em 9 whole pages in the New Male Sexuality book on Sat. Hasn't touched it for a month. The next chapter is the one about intimacy. At this rate, I figure he'll get to it around Easter. One more thing telling me I'm not really all that important. Hoping it'll all go away & whatever he's done so far is enough & I'll shut up now. Even a polite request about the book every 3 weeks or so he considers nagging. He knows that label hurts & uses it whenever he wants me to shut up.

I know, I know, except for 2 wks ago when we had sore backs from carrying the dog, he's ML once a week. Never during the week & never twice on the weekend, but at least its once & you'd be thrilled with that. But I'm never sure. And I know if we skip 2 wks in a row its all over & means starting from scratch. This is so not my Self Actualization. Not what I wanted to grow up to be. It is appalling how undesirable he can make me feel. I could have gone after him either nite, but it feels like I'm making him do something he doesn't want to. Begging makes me feel worse.

I'm guessing he'll come home tonite & want to Ml to make up for last nite. Genuine regret? Maybe. Feels more like either a sop so I'll shut up or a few crumbs for the pitiful needy. Whatever happened to that cute guy who used to grab me in the hallway grin and say, "Hey, wanna fool around?" How could he forget about the fun? How can he not miss it? I miss it so much it makes it hard to enjoy anything else. A lot like getting food cravings when you're on a diet, only worse.

With any kind of luck, things will seem better tommorrow & I won't be whining and crying at all of you.
J

[diane74]

((( JAYCE )))) Woozers!!

You had a time of it! I am so sorry I didn't see this post earlier. I'll admit I have been very much in my own world having a little pity party and not having a lot of time for reading. I wasn't making the time really. This morning I was thinking of you and thought I would come see how you are, and EEeekkkkkk !

How are you hun? Although your post here kinda makes me assume your at the end of your rope. Things got any better since. Need me to come for coffee and shake the man ?? lol :P Arghhhh. These men of ours.

Your husband and my husband have made the same comments. Hmmm, maybe it's some kind of code we don't get. Just the other day my H said the exact same thing >> I'm not sure you wanted too?? Which, like you, I don't understand cause since when have we ever denied them. I along with you do not get that statement.

That post was a little while ago, so i hope things changed for the better. Rant here as much as you want if need be.

(( hugs ))

[Jayce]

Hi, Diane,
Sorry I haven't followed up w/my next Perils of Pauline episode-besides being way more busy than I want to be, I'm way tiiirred

That Monday I didn't get much of anything done. Moped, felt like crap. Weather not helping. Compared to you its probably not bad, but we almost broke the record for snowiest January on record. Missed by an inch. Cold & gray outside is prime moping weather. H was pretty worried. The yelling he'd never Ml w/me again is a typical PA answer for knowing he screwed up & didn't fix it in time to keep me from a meltdown & he felt bad/guilty. I think he was just as bummed as I was about the wrecked evening. We had been doing pretty well for awhile.

We talked a long time Mon nite. Again about the lack of signals on his part. I asked him if he said "sure" on Sat. what he expected to happen next if he just continued watching the tube. And the same for Sun nite. (crayon picture: get up, come here, sit, hug, turn TV off)I asked him what he thought when I wore the flannels to bed Sun. He knew I was pissed!! So why didn't he act to save the situation?? He knew he should but didn't know what to do..he did, but wasn't sure..etc etc. So another miserable 24-48 hrs instead of talking right then. Its like role playing in training sessions: "A, B is upset with you, try the strategy we discussed in class." A then says, "B I can see you're upset with me. I'm sorry. I know you wanted...." Except we do them in real life, taking weeks cuz he can't quite get the script down??? So I got a long back rub, lots of cuddling, apologies, and we ml

We talked about whether or not he is really getting into it more now and how 'I don't know' or 'I guess so' isn't a good answer. Lukewarm at best. Uninterested at worst. Talked again about the need for him to share his feelings. During the week & last Sat he worked on the book & read about 40 more pages. He must have really wanted to make up for messing up.

Since we're not going to Mex. till 3/28 I went dog hunting. Checked shelter dogs on line, did a road trip that Tues. Wanted to go back Wed w/H & get one of the dogs I liked, but our world was all snow all day. Places closed early. Thurs we got the dog. The shelter spayed her Fri & we picked her up Sat. & went straight to the vet. She's close to a year old & housebroken except we can't tell when she wants out. She kind of passes by the door then wanders off. (this is 3rd dog in a row that doesn't bark at the door) I take her out on a leash to the rear of the yard so she'll learn to go way back there & we're not stepping on land mines everywhere. It worked w/last dog. So far she gets there about 2/3 of the time. Loves to chase a ball or soft frisbee, but in knee deep snow-more than that-the ball gets lost & sometimes the frisbee slices under...fish it out w/leaf rake....bizarre sight.

Anyway, every couple hours I'm out there jumping around in the snow with this goof. She follows me everywhere. thinks I should be playing 'throw the duck' or something, definitely not cooking or typing LOL Its only 10 today and we got ANOTHER #@$%^&* 8 or so inches of snow, this is light fluffy stuff piling on the heavy stuff that has a crust on top. At least its soft to fall on if I lose my balance chasing the ball, the dog, my tail....the mind I've obviously lost......

Took my truck for oil change Mon & it needs over $1500 in repairs. Springs broke from combination of rust & rubber bumpers drying out & falling off. 9 winters will do that. Only 72K mi. on it & I love it & don't want to trade it in (gaaaa!!!!not car payments, nononono, not that!!!)newer models are not set up like mine, have features I don't want/like. Next to impossible to find a newer used one cuz I want stick shift & 4x4. There is another thing they told me that needs watching & will need a $3-$4K fix when it goes. Damn. If I get a newer one I'll have to worry about keeping it cleaner inside, horse smell,etc. And the car payment curse. Bummer, I really love my truck.

So I'm having fun w/dog, laughing at myself for doing this. Like having a toddler who doesn't nap! This weekend H & I were both whacked & agreed not to ml. Imagine that! Actually talking about it & agreeing! The company that supplied his CPAP is in bozoland. Lasat week we tried to track the result of the test machine from Dec. Said they'd sent results to Dr. & would send again. I called Dr. He'd got the results in Dec & sent them the new setting on Jan 9!! They called today & told H how to change it. Big secret code thing. He should be more comfortable now & leave it on longer. It must work. He's surprised that he isn't napping on weekends.

I think the "I didn't know/think you wanted to ML" is chickening out. It is also a cop out excuse, like the continuing sore back, bad day at work, need to get up early and all the others. Turn downs feel like a slap in the face, but there are nice ways to do it, like, "Honey, I'm very tired. How about if we plan to go to bed early tomorrow ..." Rolling over & falling asleep is the worst cop out of all. Especially if their snoring keeps us awake. Ducking things only make them worse. I know my H believes I want to ML, enjoy it, and want him to also. Fear of rejection is no longer a factor. He can't play the "You don't really want to, you're just saying that" game.

Dog is thin. We named her Bones.
Jayce

[diane74]

Sounds like things are moving along :P Im very happy for you. I try to imagine myself doing what you did, and can only see my husband walking out the door. lol Arghhhhhhhh.. Sad, but true.



Love the name of your dog, thats cute.

[Jayce]

Yeah, we've been doing pretty well past couple weeks. He's ok w/the dog - said he felt sorry for her when we found she has a bladder infection. Then he left his glasses on the arm of the couch & she took 'em and crunched 'em. Ooooops. Not likin' her that much anymore. He was mad, but didn't yell & say it was my fault. Um, yeah...

Our snow is almost all gone. Tom'w spozed 2 get 60 deg. & rain. Will be swimming everywhere. Some areas here flood & ice blocks clog a couple rivers. Next week cold again. Long way till spring.
Jayce