Jim, it never feels good to hurt someone and I understand that. I think subconsciously we are all able to emotionally manipulate our spouses and are all guilty of it at times. Don't tell me you have never done it. All I'm saying is we have to be willing to hurt the one we love. It will save us and our marriages.
Men are guilty of the "bag of turds" trick also. Three years before we got married I hit my ex. Hit is several times in the face and would do it again today probably because he had done something dastardly to me. Well, when he left he accused me of physically abusing him in the marriage. The only time I had ever touched the man after we got married was out of love. When I ask him to explain his accusation he brought up the fact that I had hit him that time....THREE YEARS before we married. Yep, I've been a victim of that trick. Know what I did? I listened, thought about it and didn't defend myself because I knew what he was up to and he wasn't going to play that game with me. When they start [censored] about what happened 5 or 10 years ago all you have to say is, "keep it in the here and now or you will find yourself, talking to yourself."
People are naturally stubborn and the only way you can show them that stubborness doesn't work is to stop letting them deflect their own bad feelings back onto you. No one is more obstinant than I am and believe me, I learned the hard way that it's my enemy. You really can teach an old dog new tricks...some dogs are just more set in their ways. Cathy~
Me feelin like I'm in a pirate moovee herrre, ya know matey? Me's wonderin' if it's rated "Rrrrrrrrrr".
Strap on some balls, eh? You underestimate me, Cathy. I would not survive in my job, or in my home, if I didn't have 'em. I have a reputation for someone who quite ably stands up for himself. But, I also choose my battles, especially with my W. Truth be told, she can usually argue with me more forcefully, and if the sides change and I am winning an argument (happened last week), she says I'm picking on her and that my tone is harsh or mean. Sorry if I came off as sexist, Cathy. Didn't mean to. I do believe that woman have a crystal clear memory when it comes to the instant recall like I described with my W. It's more of a compliment than anything. I always feel at a disadvantage against it. So, I tend to just give in, 'cause it's easier than getting into it with her. She wants to drop $15k on a new bedroom set? Fine honey, whatever makes you happy. Oh, you wanted to buy a new Jeep Liberty because it was inexpensive and cute as a button, but now you HAVE to have the BMW X5 because it is better equipped with safety features for you and your little one? Fine honey, whatever you need. She wants to do a landscaping project on part of the house, and wants HGTV (Home and Garden TV channel) to use us to help get the project done. Fine, I'll have to have a video crew and three landscape designers traipsing thru my home to get a project done that will now probably be MORE expensive doing it this way. Fine honey, as you wish. (Hey, at least when the show's done, I can tell all you folks so you can see us in action on the show!)
My point here is that it's sometimes easier for a man to keep his W content in this fashion, if it can be afforded. As Corri knows, this past weekend I caved on something that I should not have, when my W wanted me to attend some beach function with our younger daughter. I went, and hated it. I went because it was important to her, or at least that's how I rationalize my caving in.
My W does, as some have noted, have some deep-dseated stuff that she needs therapy to address, but she really doesn't think so. Her dad is not an alcoholic, just a sexist pig. Her mom is sex-LESS, and I gather that she always has been. She's the most repressed person I've ever seen. I've been to individual therapy for myself, but my W thinks that she has a good handle on her history, and therefore has no need for it. Who am I to tell her otherwise?
On my way home from the office now. Will let you know what new boundaries have been drawn. Thinking of taking up yoga. Maybe I'll meet some interesting chicks there
Quote: My point here is that it's sometimes easier for a man to keep his W content in this fashion, if it can be afforded.
Easier for whom?
You draw lines in the sand over beach parties, yet you buy your wife whatever her heart desires, just because you can afford it. Ever seen the Visa Card commericals over cost vs. priceless?
Buying stuff is easy, guy, but man, do you ever say no? Could it be that the way your wife gets your attention is by her endless requests for THINGS?
I'm curious, do you guys ever talk about stuff just for sh!ts and giggles? Discuss the pros and cons over the latest Mars phenomenon...have debates over whether or not we humans are truly free? Dream together? Laugh over stupid crap on TV? Ever had a food fight?
What do you guys do to have fun together? Does she mountain bike? Do you garden?
Now given, I am in a royal funk tonight, and cynical is probably my middle name right about now, but gosh. What you just described seems so very bizarre to me.
What if your wife tells you no to sex just so she CAN have an argument with you? Good, bad, or otherwise, at least she has your undivided attention when you are fighting.
That's probably a half-looped theory. Sorry, not thinking real clearly, I guess.
Quote: What if your wife tells you no to sex just so she CAN have an argument with you? Good, bad, or otherwise, at least she has your undivided attention when you are fighting
Not half looped at all Corri. I have to tell you guys, once again, I don't care how deeply you may feel it there is NO ONE in the world who wants to be connected to someone who caves in all the time. Jesus Christ, I agree with Corri, that is a bizarre lifestyle you are living Brian.
I have to ad this. She has come to expect things to be a certain way because you have willingly provided it for her. Why the hell shouldn't she get pissed if you start to change on her? Have you ever watched a spoiled child? I mean watched one with clarity? They are absolutely miserable children. They are starved for attention and throwing fits and demanding is the only way they get it. I have friends who are afraid to say no to their children. They create monsters who know they have more freedom and more control than they should and these kids keep pushing the envelope.
My ex worked his ass off to give to me. Not to the extent that your wife demands and my ex was making over $100,000 a year. Hell, even he knew when to draw the line. The more he gave me, the more I wanted. I didn't want any of it. I wanted him, to feel an emotional connection to him but he was unavailable so I got the only part of him he had to offer, the part that gave, gave, gave.
Cloudnine, you may say that you want an emotional connection with your wife also and I know that you honestly do. Maybe she does also but for her to feel emotionally connected is not through the act of love making as it is for you.
I'll get personal about myself in an attempt to show you how a person's thinking can become so skewed. My fathe was a giver. He had to girls and they had to have EVERYTHING they wanted. New cars at 16, new shoes to match the new dresses. He showed his love for me by buying me things. I was sexually molested over a course of 2 years by a relative. Very young, 5 and 6 years old, very frightened and ashamed of what was happening to me. As an adult woman I had experienced 2 close relationships with men. One showed his love by giving to me, one (I thought) showed his love by engaging in sexual acts with me. In my marriage I thought for my husband to love me he would buy me things and want to have sex with me. He fulfilled half of what I needed to feel loved by a man and left me wondering what I had done wrong for him not to want me sexually. All good little girls are wanted sexually. I had no earthly idea what I really needed to feel secure in my marriage with my husband. I was fighting myself on a daily basis trying to find my footing, to figure out what was wrong with me and him. I had this little nagging voice in the back of my head though. I wanted someone who could show me he loved me without buying me things or wanting me sexually. I wanted him to show me what it realy meant to be loved. It wasn't his job to figure out what I needed but you better believe if he had stood up to me once, just one time I would have known he cared. It might have scared the hell out of me but it would have opened my eyes and did my eyes ever need to be open.
I don't care to talk about this anymore. I have often said that sexual dysfunction in a marriage is the symptom of a deeper problem. I think I get caught up in the problems on this forum because of how deeply affected my marriage was by it all. It's too painful to watch other marriages fall apart. Cathy
Wait a sec. My W works too. We make about equal pay in our jobs. Ever hear the saying: what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine? That's my W. If I say let's back off on the expenses, she just gives me lip service, or says that she makes a paycheck too, and can spend it as she pleases, so long as it doesn't hurt our savings.
So, my marriage is bizarre? Tell you the truth, my W has set up arguments just for the sake of arguing. It can be about sex, my mom, my older daughter, the younger daughter's schooling, whatever. I can see it coming. Since therapy, she's got better, and has lightened-up on the nagging and fighting.
To answer Corri, of course we have fun together. We are great as friends, actually. We love the beach, and go there often. I, however, find that I have more extracurricular activities, or hobbies, than she does. I mountain bike, cook, read a lot, and argue politics with friends. She is not inclined in these areas. So what? We used to have more impromptu fun, like pillow fights, but those kinda fell away after I let my resentment get in the way. Also, she's all about her younger daughter. She is wrapped up in being the perfect mom to this girl. It's all about the little one. that girl is really her world, and I half-joked to her this weekend that I feel like a third wheel around them. She basically said, in a nice way, that that's my problem.
Exactly how do I stand up to my W, ina way that I have not done so thus far in our marriage? I really feel like I've tried every angle. I have to admit that I didn't have a lot of strong role models in my life for this. I think my way of showing her love is to let her feel that she is safe with me, and that I'm concerned about her peace-of-mind and personal growth. The THINGS are important to HER.
We used to religiously watch the sitcom Everybody Loves Raymond, and laugh our asses off because it's so close to our life (Ray's mom is MY mom). But, as I got more serious about our lack of intimacy, I could no longer tune in to watch the show. It wasn't funny any longer, watching Ray beg and plead for sex with his wife, and get his ass verbally whupped by her on every show. I haven't watched it since last year, even in syndication. Too close to home.
I know it's all fake, but the general theme of marital comedy seems to be that guys get married, and sex stops. Guys: is this just the sitch that we sign up for? Am I making too much hay over nothin'?
I love Everything About Raymond. I've often wanted to suggest my ex watch because it is a great representation of an abusive relationship. She whips his butt verbally on a regular basis and he is so gutless in return. Funny but a pathetic characterization of what a marital relationship should be like.
I'm not going to be posting to you any longer Brian. For some reason you have chosen to start ignoring my posts to you so I will bow out now and leave you to concentrate on other people's advice. A word though, when someone reveals to you something as traumatic in her life as sexual molestation in an attempt to help you better understand your situation you might want to at least let them know you have the emotional IQ to even have noticed.
Your too focused on what you are not getting....sex, to grasp the idea that it isn't about sex at all with for wife. Until you can start working on the problem from an angle that is going to have some kind of effect on her true issue you don't have a fighting chance. I wish you well and her too. Cathy~
Please review my posts and tell me again that I am ingnoring yours. I am sure that, if you take a closer look, you will realize that is not the case at all.
I read with sympathy your experience as a young girl. In fact, I read it 3 times in order to absorb the weight of it. But I have to ask, are you suggesting there might be something similar going on with my wife? I have point-blank asked her if there are any such skeletons in her closet, and she insists that there are none. She has had AMPLE opportunity to get these things sorted out in therapy, and if they exist, they're still there unfortunately. I think there's something there for her to work out, but she does not. So what am I to do?
If the message I've got across here is that all I want is sex, then my message has not gotten across. Maybe it's me who should bow out, if I'm perceived as that shallow.
Well, my W seems like she thinks something's up with me. It's like she wants to ask me a question, but can't. I know her well, and know when something is on her mind. I asked her this morning if she can just tell me what's on her mind. She said that she can't. I asked her if that was fair to me, and she said she really hadn't thought about it. Stay tuned, but....
What if she asks if I'm cheating, or if I don't love her any more?
Quote: What if she asks if I'm cheating, or if I don't love her any more?
Guy...you are at the pivotal moment of your life. I don't know where you are right now, but if I were you, I'd call in sick, leave work for the afternoon and prepare yourself for the most flat out honest, anger free conversation of your life.
Find a babysitter for your little girl, and when your wife gets home from work, go get take out and head on down to the beach.
I'd take the SSM book with you...and tell your wife you would like for her to just let you talk for a few minutes without interruption. And then say something like:
"Honey, you need to know I'm not having an affair, and that I love with you with all my heart. But I have to be honest and tell you I feel I have reached the end of my rope. I know you think that for me, it's all about down and dirty sex (and when she opens her mouth at that moment, put your hand up and ask her to let you finish).
Pull out the SSM book, and say, one of the reasons I've asked you to read this book is not because I need to prove to you I'm right, but because I am trying desperately to tell you how I feel. When I say it, I can't keep from getting angry, because I am hurting so much...and when I get angry, you can't hear me...all you hear is the anger. I don't blame you.
I thought maybe if you read the book, it could speak for me, without the anger, because this is exactly how I feel but somehow am not able to say to you.
I've done everything I can think of...I don't know what else to do. That's not your fault...it's no one's fault. But I need you to know I am barely hanging on by a thread here, and you deserve to know how close I am to bailing out for good. I'll try to hold out as long as I can, I will continue to try for as long as I can, but I just don't know how long that's going to be.
You get the gist. Anger free and honest. From where you are and all the things you've been saying in your posts, I think this is probably the best you can do.
And then you've got some real tough decisions to make. Because if she does an immediate about face, you need to let her know, honestly and anger free, that you aren't looking for quick fixes...but lasting changes to improve your marriage. And that will involve.... x, y, z for you (you defining what x, y and z is. If you don't know, you need to figure that out real quick...this is the boundary part...you will have to be crystal clear on it, and be willing to stick to it under any circumstance.)
