Just don't make any major moves without consulting the "redistrcting" committee Brian. When you start shifting behavior lines you need access to expert opinions on how the new boundaries are going to affect the residents. Sounds like Corri has great insight into human behavior and with my four years of hands own experience we might can help you with the demographics a bit. Can't have you getting black marker all over yourself. Cathy~
Hi All, I;m going to jump in here as a newbie and throw in something for Brian.
First a bit on myself. I am the HD spouse, we've been married 19 years and have one child. There has been issues regarding sex since the kiddo arrived. The spouse shifted to once a month mode or less ever since, the kiddo just turned 8! She has been on Prozac for the last 2 1/2 years and we've been in counselling now for a year and a half. There has been improvement in the communication area but the sex part is still at once a month (count for 2003 8 times), although we did make love on our anniversary for the first time in 9 years!
Enough about me, my point for jumping in is that my spouse just read a book on adult children of alcoholics. My father in law is one, he's pretty good, not one of those go out and come home drunks, but a steady beer after beer most nights. My spouse says that this book is the first one that she read that spoke to her, which caused her to read at least the frist chapter of SSM, yeah! Anyway, I read the book and there is a section on how children of alcoholics react to relationships. One is "I love you now go away" which my spouse does. Which is when she wants me close and communicating, but promptly ignores me when I'm telling her about my day or am not responding the way she wants me to. It also translates to the sex part in that she wants to snuggle in bed, her front to my back and vice versa, I'm not allowed to touch anywhere that would not be acceptable in public. I don't know if there is the possibility of alcoholism in your wifes family, but that might explain part of it.
"Satisfaction is not guaranteed." Rule #19 Ferengi "Rules of Acquistition"
Did I say yet that golf sucks? I did? Okay then, i'll move on with other stuff. Let's just start by saying there's a hole I'd like to put my driver in....a DIFFERENT sort of golf
It was nice to see Sooner's suggestions above. I feel like I've tried them, but I need to watch the "not show any resentment" part. Knowing my W, she'll still think that someting's up alright.....and that *something* is that I don't love her any more. Boo-friggin-hoo.
I am going to do some writing tonight, and try and get back into journalizing my thoughts and actions. I need to recall every action course that I've tried the past year. I think I've tried it every which way. Believe me, I have not initiated sex for several months, and have no plans to.
I don't know how some of you do it. Butterfly, for instance, says she's hung in there for 12 years. Apparently, for some of you, divorce is not an option. It is an option for me, hence my willingness to apply a timetable to my situation. I just am not willing to go on like this for long, folks. Life's just too short.
Going back to Sooner's post, and Corri's comment about CJ's post, my W will use my distancing behavior against me. Even if I behave lovingly, but don't supply her with all of the stuff she likes, she'll say that I'm being selfish, or unloving, or whatever (maybe a symptom of the *I love you, but leave me alone* that my fellow HD spouse mentioned). That's why I want to journalize everything for now, as a hedge against that. You women are interesting in one of many ways: I can do so many wonderful things for my W over a long period of time, fill up a bag of good deeds if you will. Then, one day in the future, she'll open the bag at some opportune time for her, and pull out some forgotten petrified turd from the bottom of that bag and say *SEE! You disappointed me this one time back on March 24, 2002! You THINK you're a good H, father, whatever, but you're not all that good, so why should I give myself to YOU!?* It just never ends.
Maybe she is thinking I'll go back to my old ways, as I know she has alredy done to me. If I decide to separate, does that validate this in her? I am not willing to love her unconditionally in this area for an indefinite period of time. Unconditional love is what parents do for children...I love my kids unconditionally. Adults are on a different level, therefore conditions should be attached. I think I've given this situation at least 4 years to sort itself out. I'm not willing to give it 4 more, or even one more. It's down to months, not years.
That said, feel free to place your bets on how she'll react to the boundaries. I kiss her goodbye when we depart for work, and I'm polite to her during the day, and generally helpful at home. But I'm not giving her the rubdowns in the morning. Last night, I went to bed VERY early to read and then go to sleep before her. When we brought our young daughter to the park yesterday evening, she tried to get close to me. I kissed her lightly, then pulled away to play with the daughter. No deep kisses at all, and no extended touching. I'm not being rude to her, just allowing myself to be distracted by other things.
Let me know if I have this boundary thing all wrong.
All the best!
P.S. Kansas was a cool band. Way underrated at the time. Better than Boston, which was way OVERrated, and still is.
Quoting Cloudnine:my W will use my distancing behavior against me. Even if I behave lovingly, but don't supply her with all of the stuff she likes, she'll say that I'm being selfish, or unloving, or whatever
This may sound bad, but personally I think that your wife deserves a taste of her own medicine. She's being selfish and unloving to you - and I don't think that refusing to cater to her every desire is either unloving or selfish, especially if you can pull it off without becoming distant or seeming like you're trying to get revenge. What you'll be doing is actually quite loving when you consider that it's an attempt to rekindle some romance and save your marriage.
I'm in the same boat so I probably can't provide the most objective input, but I think that you're on the right track - especially if you've tried everything else you can think of. Hang in there!
Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, and all the SAINTS above in heaven!!! *mother f**king, godd8^*%n son of a biscuit eater from France.... could... you... just... work with me here?!
If you are only going to give this three months and the clock it ticking, could you at least, for the love of the Higher Power of Your Choosing, throw that doom and gloom attitude of yours out the stupid window until January? Please? Would it help if I said pretty please?
Ye arrrr a tough mon ta work with, Brian, and ye arrrr tryin' me soul sumtin terrible.
At least thrrrow yer back into yer work, lad, while yer awillin' ta work so's at the end of yer day, ye know ye did yer best, aye?
I do brogue rather well, even in written form, hm?
Ye arrr hilarious Corri! Ye gots me laughin' sumtin terrible here - and I'm supposed to be working. I take it you're enjoying the kids being back in school?
Not too subtle Corri and I'm damned glad you said it. I read the post shortly after it was posted and I nearly had to chew my arm off to keep from doing basically what you did. Rackin frackin Brian!!
Do not, I repeat, Do Not waste your time worrying about what her reaction to your boundaries will be. You keep letting [censored] get in the way and come January you will find yourself without a marriage. I ask this question once before and it was ignored. I will try again. Why the hell is it that you guys fear your wifes negative reactions? Why the hell is it that you will roll over and play good doggy just to keep from having to deal with a little heat from the little wife? I have to say this...you point your finger and squak at what she will do as if she is the bad guy for reacting. Hell, she has a right to react...that doesn't make her a bitch, it makes her human. Stop blaming her because you don't or won't learn how to deal with her reaction in a way that makes it less stressful on you!!
I'm very touchy about this subject. I had a good doggy husband. Boy did he roll over...over and over again. Of course, stupid me thought he was agreeing to everything because he wanted to, not because he "feared my anger." You keep living a lie and you will be the one with the majority of the responsibility when it comes to the destruction of your marriage, your self-esteem and all else that is lost in divorce. If my ex had strapped on some balls, looked me squarely in the face and told me..."I'm tired of your [censored]" you better believe I would have heard him. Stop dancing around the subject because you are afraid cause like it or not, your lies are her reality and you don't have a right to check out on a marriage if you are the one choosing to live a lie. That is about you, not your wife. Sorry, probably a bit abusive of me but damned if I'm not tired of men who fear their wives reaction to every move they make.
I'm not even going to touch that, "you women" remark. Cathy
Do you think you really would have heard him if he had "strapped on some balls"?
I stand up for myself all the time and do you know what I get when I do..."Oh god! This is just too overwhelming for me! I can't talk about this right now." Sometimes I say, "Well we ARE going to talk about this right now" which is met with a blank staring off into space followed by a "Well, I just don't know what to say about that." Other times I say, "Ok, you don't feel like talking about this right now, when would YOU like to discuss it?" which is met with "I am too overwhelmed, I can't give you a time, just leave me alone!"
I, for one, have had just about enough of this, "I wish my man would grow a pair and stand up to me. I'd really respect and love him if he did. It could save our relationship." In my humble opinion, it is not the responsbility of your mate to make you treat him with respect or love (read--turn you into an adult)......it is yours to decide to. I see great men all the time being mistreated this way by their spouses, all the while the guy has the biggest pair of brass ones around, the wife just does not see it because she is too narcissistic to notice.
I am not trying to be rude here but do you think you would have actually heard him....or do you just wish you had been able to.
Sorry Cathy...I sort of vented here and it is not directed at you. I just think that women have to be very careful when they start assuming that just because your mate goes along with you he is afraid of you. I for one think it is imperative that mates go along from time to time even if they don't feel like it, not because they are wimps or are afraid...but because they love. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
Quote: Why the hell is it that you guys fear your wifes negative reactions? Why the hell is it that you will roll over and play good doggy just to keep from having to deal with a little heat from the little wife?
I'll answer that. The reason is, if we do love them, we feel bad if we hurt them (especialy if we have already hurt them before) So even when we put our foot down, and they get hurt over it we end up feeling like sh!t no matter how right or justified we feel and believe we are. And either conscieously or not most women know it and know how to play on it to thier advantage. Like Brian said, she will dig into that bag of good deeds and pull that dated 10 year old turd from the bottom. Eventualy all the love will be lost, this is what is happening to Brian right now, when it does happen, he will put his foot down, but by then it is to late and he won't care, the years of trying will not count for squat and he will become the A-hole in hers and everyone else eyes.
I don't know Cathy, people are naturaly stubborn, I know I would not have listened if someone told me what would happen to me. 99 times out of 100, people, men and women think they are bullet proof, think it can't or won't happen to them and won't listen until it's to late. Hindsight is 20/20
Quote: In my humble opinion, it is not the responsbility of your mate to make you treat him with respect or love (read--turn you into an adult)......it is yours to decide to.
I agree it is not your responsibility to have to make anyone treat you with respect and you should certainly expect a wife or husband to naturally want to help you feel loved and respected. It is though, your responsibility to see that you get the respect you know you deserve if you are not being treated respectfully Meat. We have to be willing to take off the rose colored glasses and realize that our spouses are humans and they are not flawless. People are as different as day and night. She may think she is treating you in a respectful way, she may dismiss you when you try and tell her differently out of obstinance and it is then your responsibility to make sure you get the message through to her that she is behaving in an unacceptable way. If she truly loves you and respects you then she will eventually get the message and deal with it.
Your wife sounds, to me, as if she is broken emotionally. It sounds as if she needs some fairly intense therapy to ever be able to get outside herself and realize what damage her actions are causing. I haven't read your complete story but from what I have read I think you have a huge problem on your hands.
Do I think I would have heard my ex? Yes!! I used to talk to him about it. His passiveness was oppressive at times. He never had an opinion, never made a decision, never showed any backbone and it was stifling to me. He had no friends, no interests outside his family and job. I would ask him how he could live with no interest of activity that was his and his alone to escape to. He was an Air Force officer. I used to encourage him to go for beer with the guys on Friday nights. Go fishing, play golf, do something for himself. Nope, he was "happy with what he had." When he left me he told me he had lived in hell the entire marriage because he feared my anger. I can count on one hand the times I was angry at this man the entire 19 years I knew him. He was too damned perfect to be angry with. Little did I know he was hating his own actions and choices and that I would one day get blamed for it.
"Going along from time to time" out of love is called compromise. We all do it in marriage and we do it out of love. Compromising who you are and what you need though just to keep from having to deal with the backlash of standing up for yourself is destructive as hell. I don't think that most women assume their husbands go along out of fear. That is the problem. Most of us assume you are going along with the status quo because it is truly what you want also. I can only speak for myself and I have to say that most of the women I know would be terribly wounded to know their husbands feared them. I had no idea until he left that he feared standing up for himself and what he wanted and that fear was not put there by me or anything I had ever done to him but by a mother who beat him into submission as a child. I have paid the price though and have suffered greatly because the man I loved was conditioned to be afraid to speak his mind.
Your wife has been conditioned also. Something is driving her actions and I believe the sex issue is only a symptom of the real problem. She is so, so defensive and I hope you are able to help her figure out why. Cathy
