Aching Man, I think the way you are looking at this boundary setting thing is a little off as far as my percetion. The idea is not to rob yourself of the things you need but to stop bending over backwards and giving up the things you need all in a futile attempt to change someone else.
Setting boundaries doesn't mean not touching your wife if it is touch you need. It means giving her back her problems and beginning to live in a way that will allow her problems to have very little effect on you.
As individuals the only reason we need for setting boundaries with another person is the desire to protect ourselves. If it is done for the right reason and with love and respect for, not only yourself but the other person then no one has to defend their reasons for setting boundaries.
I'm curious about something. It seems to be a running fear here. Being afraid to take a certain action for fear of the spouses response. Do we only want something to get better if it can be done without conflict? Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. If you set proper boundaries and act upon them, it's your spouse who will have to finally deal with the situation. She may start out dealing by doing some kicking and screaming but, hey, it's just kicking and screaming. A small price to pay for maybe making a positive change I would think> Cathy
Quote: I'm still pondering Corri's last suggestion of backing off and drawing boundaries. It's just, how's the best way to do this? I think I have done it, this time last year; but at that time I also wasn't being loving at all. I can be loving, yet not be as giving in those areas that are specifically important to her. Do I have it right Corri? The consequences of this, I'm afraid, is that she'll say I'm an uncaring husband, not attending to her needs.
This is just my opinion, but I don't see boundaries as a 'defense mechanism.' It is not something to be tried for awhile and then to be set aside. I see setting boundaries as our acknowledgement of who and what we are, having the courage to own it, and then stick to it.
You are correct when you say you can be loving towards your wife, yet still maintain your boundaries. The trick to boundaries is to know who and what you are, and what your motives are when you apply them. For example, when you say no to your wife...about anything...she is going to try whatever it is she's done in the past to get you to do what she wants (that's fair, yes?) If she calls you a lousy husband, a bad father, a poor family man...well, now it is up to you to seperate the issues. You KNOW you are a good husband, a wonderful father, a great family man (and if you don't know that, you have some work to do in those areas). Just because SHE says you are not, does not make it so.
Her opinion of you DOESN'T matter. It is your opinion of yourself that matters most. Back to the matter at hand. Stay in the moment and examine your motives. If you say no and you mean no, because this is how YOU feel about the issue at hand, stick to it. If you are saying no to get back at her, to withdraw because you are angry...this then you must evaluate. Try to set aside the anger and stick with the issue at hand. It's really hard to do at first...
When she throws the guilt trip at you (which she will, because you have taught her that this is acceptable behavior), you can lovingly and gently reaffirm your answer, and then affirm that you want her to go to the party and have a good time without you. You'll be home when she gets back and she can tell you all about it.
If she heads down the road of throwing zingers (you're a bad father, an awful hubby, etc.), you still do not need to engage in the dance. You can simply say, 'I'm sorry you feel that way, but I still want you to have a nice time at the party without me. Do you have everything you need to take with you? Do you need help loading up the car?'
Another way to look at boundaries is like those we set with our children. I would love to give my kids cookies, toys and whatever their hearts' desire all day long, but I know that if I do that, I will be creating the worst sort of midget terrorists imaginable. Loving someone does not always mean saying yes, or 'giving in.' Sometimes the most loving thing we can do is say no...but you must first do the work to know who you are, what you like, what you don't like, where you are willing to bend, where you are not, and what makes YOU happy.
Anticipating and acting upon those things which WE think our spouses need is real tricky business. I think the easiest way to navigate this one at this time is to always keep yourself in the forefront of your thoughts.
That's where I was saying before, if you want to wash your wife's car because YOU need/want to wash her car, great, have at it. If you are washing her car because YOU THINK she wants you to, don't. If she asks you to wash your car and you don't mind, great, wash her car. If she asks you to wash her car and you don't really feel like it, then don't do it.
Keep it simple.
If she asks you to wash her car, you don't feel like it, then she starts in on her guilt trips and miny tantrums, well, you are going to have to let her have her fit. It doesn't mean you have to buy into them.
I can tell you, when you stop reacting to her typcial arsenal of tricks, there is a good chance she is going to get even nastier, or try something that is completely below the belt. That is why it is imparative you understand your motives and are firm in your beliefs, because she is going to test you to your limit. Just like our children do.
When she finally sees that her old ways of doing things just aren't working anymore, but that you AREN'T leaving, she will change her behavior....she has no choice.
You staying the loving person you are regardless of her behavior is the most gentle and honest approach you can take with her.
You take care of you. Let her take care of her.
You must also try to resist name calling and guilt trips. It is extraordinarily manipulative, and it will undermine your own efforts. This is really tough to do because sometimes it works really well in getting us what we want.
Okay, I'm stopping now because there is a lot to absorb here.
Golf sucks, and that's why I don't play it. What's your excuse? I'll buy you a mountain bike so you can have some REAL fun!
What you propose here is something that is worth trying for awhile, and I'm willing to give it a shot. Today has been a rough day with her. She has an incredible ability to make me feel guilty. It truly is amazing. I know, I know...I LET her make me feel guilty...whatever. This is the relationship's dynamic.
When she starts up her act of laying on guilt, or whatever, it can be punishing. She's got it down. She had a good teacher, her mother. If I'm really honest here, after all these posts, I have little hope of anything working. I think it's a foregone conclusion that I'll be a goner after the first of the year. I really feel I've tried everything over the years. But, I'll take this advice and see what happens.
Take care. Got a 4-year old to get out of the tub and into bed. Can't wait to get back to work tomorrow and away from this Dramarama.
I’ve been thinking about something since reading MPT’s post of 8/22 on this thread that I thought I’d try to put into words for the sake of discussion. As background, on 8/22 Brian said “We went to therapy, and I immediately set about to correct the problems she had with me…I was concerned enough, and serious enough, about her issues with me, that I immediately set about to change. I would like the same from her.”
In response to Brian’s post MPT said “Men and women aren’t all that different. They both do things primarily because of some benefit for themselves. You made the changes your wife requested not primarily because of her desires, but because of your own desire for more sex… She’s no different. Improving your sex life is on her to-do list, but it is there for you not for her. This will put it lower on the list. If you want to see movement on her part, she has to have a reason to move it up on the priority list FOR HERSELF .
While I’m sure that everyone participating in this thread loves their spouse and wants to do things to make them happy, I don’t think we can deny that we’re all somewhat selfish in that we want to be happy also. That’s not necessarily bad – it’s just the way we are. In therapy, Brian and his wife expressed things that they wanted from each other. Brian gave his wife what she wanted, however his wife didn’t live up to her end of the bargain. I think that such situations often come down to who wants their needs met the most. In this case it was Brian – he immediately corrected the problems that his wife had with him because he felt that in so doing she would be motivated to do the same for him. But she didn’t respond to Brian’s needs with the same urgency because the problems that she had with him were not causing her enough grief to make fixing them worth the effort. After a while she found that without changing a thing all of her needs were already being met. Therefore she had no motivation to fix anything – why rock the boat when everything is fine? As MPT stated “she had to have a reason to move Brian’s needs up the priority list FOR HERSELF.
Now, bearing in mind that this is just a theory and that I certainly have no proven expertise, here is what I think Brian needs to do in order to make his wife’s needs enough of a priority for her to care about meeting his needs:
1. Stop doing things for his wife in an attempt to make her happy. This, I think, is what Corri has been saying – basically do the things that make him happy and stop worrying about what impact they have on his wife. However, in doing this Brian should be smooth enough not to appear spiteful. Any household responsibilities that are clearly his should still be done as before – but most of the things that he’s been doing for his wife beyond that should be stopped cold.
2. While doing #1 above, don’t appear to be the slightest bit resentful. Be happy and loving. Corri, and others have pointed out that people who are genuinely happy draw others to themselves, and I’m sure that most people would agree with that. By being happy and continuing to be loving, while not doing anything particularly special for his wife, I think that she’ll begin to wonder why he’s so happy when she’s feeling so neglected.
3. Don’t initiate sex for a while – act completely uninterested in anything beyond a goodbye kiss, holding hands, etc. Combined with #’s 1 and 2 I think this will really make Brian’s wife wonder what’s up with him. She may start thinking “he’s not doing special things for me and he doesn’t seem to be interested in sex, yet he seems to be so happy”.
4. Stick with this for a while, and if it eventually brings about a positive result (i.e. she initiates sex) then give her the best sex of her life followed by some positive feedback by doing some of the things that she requested in therapy. Then after a couple of days, go back to doing #’s 1 through 3. This is where I am at the moment and unfortunately I don’t know if it will work yet. But I’ve decided that it’s worth a try.
As always, comments are welcome. Since I’m pretty much following the plan that I’ve described above I’d appreciate any input as to how it could be improved.
Brian..I have read all these posts and my goodness what input!! Be grateful for all the responses..regardless of some silly bashing that went on..One of the things you asked how long can I handle this? Well I have been on this sexual roller coaster for 12 years! I have posted and not received responses as you have..but that's ok..reading your posts and history..has it occurred to you that your W is waiting to see how long you will continue to be the Good Husband?? and keep up your end of the bargain? Or maybe she thinks it is temporary?..don't think anyone has said that to you!! Reality check! This is what kept coming at me in thought as I read all the posts..she is waiting for the ball to drop and you go back to your old ways..You both obviously want your marriage to work..You are doing all the right things!! She is waiting to see how long this will continue!! She was raised by a single parent..who is sexually repressed you said..Did Mom tell her sex was dirty?? so the "slut" you say you know is inside of her is scared to come out..not that she doesn't want her to..she is afraid to let her hair down..Your approach of romancing her, and being a part of the "team" in parenting is wonderful! I praise you on that! Good Dad! That alone should make her love you more. My first marriage would have survived if only he had been more loving to me and our girls..the way you are to your W. I do agree with the others..she is not a mind reader and does not fully know your disappointment, and she needs to be told..Write her a fantastic love letter..one that will make her envision the beautiful love making that can be so fulfilling to both of you. This coming from you, and not from a book, may tittilate her senses..right down to that "slut" part of her that needs to come out to fulfill herself and you..I feel alot of the issues are of the past, just as my H has bad past problems..to me it is trash to be put to the curb..I dealt with mine years ago..This is my 2nd marriage that I truly want to work out and bring his bad boy to life!LOL I am having the same problems you are. So I understand too well..You want it NOW! But sorry to say..it cannot always be that way..I am proof positive of that ..unfortunately..As far as your resentment under your skin? She does feel it..believe me...she does..What you need to do when she wakes up with her head on your belly and says What's this? Tell her to kiss her best friend hello..and see what happens..add some humor to your life..it may just be the beginning of some fun sex ..too many times we all forget how to laugh as well as love in bed!! Sex is taken too seriously, and laughter and playfulness are forgotten..but that is what makes lovin fun! Play ..be kids..try a new approach with her..it may be the key you are looking for to open new doors for both of you Do not do anything that your heart is not into.. The look of disappointment you mentioned was the final thing that confirmed to me that she is thinking your changing ways are only temporary..but you say that you like this..and I believe that you are being sincere..and yes..we do all want something in return..and no, I do not think it is selfish of us to feel that way..but you are doing alot of this from your heart..regardless of what I have read other posters saying..keep it up..Do not go to the other room..not yet..I think alot of what has occured that is negative is due to your absentee spouse in the bedroom issue Also ..did she ever ask you if you are thinking of the fling while making love to her??? That could also be a covered up issue..Well I know I am not a pro at all this..but I wanted to give you my thoughts and feelings, in the hopes that maybe a different look at this problem may be helpful..I am very new here..have not even completed reading DB..just think you need a little spiritual and emotional lifting and hope my theory on it helps you out! Keep smiling Butterfly46
Quote: Golf sucks, and that's why I don't play it. What's your excuse?
As I have stated before, I think I am a glutton for punishment. I'm also a tenacious b*tch and I hate giving up. I'm never going to make the pro circuit because it just isn't on my agenda, but damn, I am so close to being really good...I may never win the club championship, but there is going to come a day when I give the lady who wins it year after year a true run for her money. Uhm, so that's my excuse.
Quote: I'll buy you a mountain bike so you can have some REAL fun!
Okay, so like the word 'moutain' in moutain bike...is that just there because it's another word for cool...like, 'man, this is a moutain of a bike!" Or is it there because it involves riding up something one heck of a lot bigger than a slight incline in the road?
Quote: What you propose here is something that is worth trying for awhile, and I'm willing to give it a shot.
Whew, whew!! Happy dance, happy dance, go Brian!! go Brian!!
Quote: Today has been a rough day with her. She has an incredible ability to make me feel guilty. It truly is amazing. I know, I know...I LET her make me feel guilty. This is the relationship's dynamic.
BINGO! Ding, ding, ding, ding, we have a WINNER! Nailed it, you did. You have narrowed the problem down into one digestable chunk...infinately more tolerable to deal with than a vast morass of 'what the hell is it?' For good or bad, at least now you know 'the enemy' so to speak...and no, it isn't your wife. Yes, it is the dynamic the two of you have created together. I'm lecturing, aren't I? Sorry.
Quote: If I'm really honest here, after all these posts, I have little hope of anything working. I think it's a foregone conclusion that I'll be a goner after the first of the year. I really feel I've tried everything over the years.
STOP!!!! Put a squeeze on that negative thinking! Hey, when you are out on that bike of yours, do you ever once think, 'man, I am NEVER going to make it up that hill...never.' Or do you get pissed and refuse to let the moutain beat you? If you will not buy the book, "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind," by Joseph Murphy, then at least read your daughter "The Little Engine Who Could," every night before you put her to bed. Think of it as your daily mini self pep talk.
Quote: But, I'll take this advice and see what happens.
I'd repeat the happy dance scenario here, but I don't want to go overboard or anything...I'd give a slight caveat here in encouraging you to stick with it not for some specified time frame, but until you get really good at boundaries...you're wife will either change, or she'll leave you...neither of which you can control...but in either event, you will have fixed yourself, which makes you the grand prize winner.
I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...chugga, chugga, whew, whew! (LOL, LOL, LOL...Gawd, I just crack myself up sometimes...ain't it fun being completely and utterly corney sometimes... )
Keep us posted. And if you have nothing to post and are feeling a bit restless, we all here can have the "freedom" debate just to get off the subject of our spouses for a time...cuz you KNOW I didn't agree with any of your arguments you threw out there other day...I don't know WHAT the hell that man is thinking...
Okay, I'm going now...gotta go bug the sh*t outta someone else for a while....where the heck is Crazy Jim...he's been WAY too quiet lately....
Quote: ....where the heck is Crazy Jim...he's been WAY too quiet lately....
Hey Corri, Crazy Jim lives... Iv'e been layin in the weeds and observing from a distance. The CloudMan don't need my help with you guys takin care of him, but I'll chime in if I have any thoughts.
One thing... He has been given advise to stop doing above and beyond things for his wife, and to stop initiating sex, and go about his normal life smiling and happy to see how she reacts... I bet you dollars to doughnuts her first thought will be that he is having an affair. What ya think Brian, am I right?
It could be that Brian's wife will think that he is having an affair. But he isn't...and I believe that spouses' who have affairs typically exhibit different types of behaviors...Brian has NOTHING to feel guilty about, and therefore will not act in a guilty manner. If he continues to act in a loving manner, the emotional distance that tends to come from affairs will be absent as well.
His wife can think what she likes, no one can stop her...Brian has the very best defense in that he's not doing anything. She'll come to understand it. What is not going to change, however, is Brian's new boundaries...right, Brian?
I've been dying to reply today, but I was in meetings all day at work, and now at home I can't write w/o the W hovering around. I'll be responding ASAP, probably tomorrow though. Meanwhile, I have my permanent marker out, drawing my boundaries. Looking like a Texas redistricting plan.
Be grateful for all the responses..regardless of some silly bashing that went on..One of the things you asked how long can I handle this?
I am having the same problems you are. So I understand too well..You want it NOW! But sorry to say..it cannot always be that way..I am proof positive of that ..unfortunately..As far as your resentment under your skin? She does feel it..believe me...she does..What you need to do when she wakes up with her head on your belly and says What's this? Tell her to kiss her best friend hello..and see what happens..add some humor to your life..it may just be the beginning of some fun sex ..too many times we all forget how to laugh as well as love in bed!! Sex is taken too seriously, and laughter and playfulness are forgotten..but that is what makes lovin fun!
Do not do anything that your heart is not into..
Butterfly46