I swear to God I must be a glutton for punishment, but I've been thinking about our discussions, and I'd like to try one more time, with a different angle, to see if this triggers something within you. If not, I will try and keep my big mouth shut and just pray for you.
First off, I completely revise my opinion about asking your wife if she thinks she is trying. Don't. Not yet. I think if you do, you are going to get a non-committal answer, or an 'I don't know.' I think this because (and this is a complete guess on my part), your wife doesn't know why. Honestly and truly. Hang tight. Just hold the thought a minute, k?
When people say to you, 'change yourself and then your wife will change, too,' you feel completely exasperated because you can't think of one thing under the sun you haven't tried, haven't given, etc., etc. You say that a marriage is about give and take, and that all you do is give, give, give. No one will argue that. What the hell else is left to try?
Stop giving. It is an active thing that you can do.
Hang on, let me explain.
This is where my guessing part is coming in, so only you can decide if I'm on track here as I don't know your wife.
For various and sundry reasons that I won't go into here because I don't want to lecture, I think your wife's two greatest fears are fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment. If this is the case, and she has never dealt with either fear, then they are so engrained in the fiber of her being she will have no idea 'why' she isn't trying.
Sometimes, when people have been deeply hurt by those they love and trust (I'm going back to childhood here), they will hold at an arm's distance those they love the most...it is an engrained defense mechanism to keep themselves from ever being hurt again. You may be able to take heart in the fact that your wife loves you so much she won't allow herself to get close to you.
By you 'giving' so much of yourself with all the things you are doing (with the very best of intentions), you are actually overwhelming your wife emotionally. Hang with me.
Sex was great before marriage because there wasn't so much at stake. But marriage is serious stuff, yes? She knows this as much as you do, and now you even have a child in the mix. There's a ton for her to lose.
But by allowing this mechanism to go unresolved, she is doing the very thing that will push you out the door. Your wife is probably emotionally at war with herself because she sure as hell doesn't want you to leave, but she is equally or more afraid of getting close to you. I think you even said she seems afraid of opening up to you.
Right now, her dearest wish probably is that you just be a roommate because she needs the emotional distance from you to regain her footing. But she would never tell you that because her other greatest fear is you leaving. So your wife is paralyzed....and she doesn't even know it. That's where those 'I feel pressured' statements come from.
One of the reasons I and others have suggested you pursue the things that make you happy, and fill up your time with the things you enjoy is because it helps distract you from the anger and resentment you are feeling. It helps tremendously to lower the tension levels in the house. Your knitted brows will relax, your non-verbals become more open, you communicate in non-verbal ways that yes, you are in fact on her side. You're happy, you're smiling...it makes you infinately more approachable and trustable.
You can still do thoughtful things for her if you wish, but by closing your door to the Banc du Giving, you are in effect disabling one of her defense mechanisms.
You will begin to see the small changes in her...she may start opening up to you about how she 'feels' about certain things, she may begin to touch you more often...and these things will be enormous steps for her. Her guard will slowly come down because she will no longer feel 'pressured' or suffocated.
The only problem for you in this is that is does take some time to take effect. However, you aren't really getting sex now anyway...what's another month if it could possibly get her to a place where she can come out of her paralysis?
You can now gently become the taker instead of the giver. But by taking what she offers, as she offers it (and she will, I promise), you are giving her the greatest possible gift you could give her.
Ahhhh, after a long, hard day, it is so nice to kick back and relax here at Dysfunction Junction! How y'all doin'?
Well, that last post from Corri, which I just read, had to be read twice! I'm serious, I had to read it twice because I couldn't believe it was my Corri. (Well, not MY Corri, but you know what I mean.) I will address what you mention in a sec.
First, if freedom is simply defined as a free world of choice, then the entire planet is free. Everything in life has a tiny little price tag on it; it's just what price is written onto it. That's true in America, and in the remotest parts of Africa. It's true of a ghetto kid who murders an innocent grandma in Cincinatti, and of a woman who chooses not to wear her burka in public in some Muslim countries. Let's just agree that America is more free than other countries?
As for pre-nups, I have to say that I don't have one, and don't agree with them. Just wanted to be on the record about that. I think it's rather sad if anyone feels they need something like that. But, I'm glad to see that you also see marriage as a partnership. Was anxious to see what else you thought it might be.
I find my fellow sufferer I mentioned above in my earlier post to be somewhat sad. Not him so much as his situation. I think his wife has him, as us guys say....sorry ladies....pussy-whipped. Sometimes, we can be so driven by fear that we all do things that others would look at and say...Are you insane?!?! Yet the behavior is encouraged by others on this BB, which I find repulsive. Isn't it unfortunate that some of us (myself included?) find us so close to the end of our ropes, as you say, that we will do anything, even giving up on ourselves in order to accomodate. That is sad to me, and I'm afraid I'll end up there too.
I find your latest post so interesting because it is something I have toyed with doing. You need to better understand how I am with my W. I think you might be on to something in saying that she has a fear of abandonment and intimacy. Yet, she likes being intimate with me, just on her terms: everything up to sex. She likes cuddling, holding hands, kissing. Get my hand between her legs, it's sometimes like sliding my hand into a vise. Her body language changes. This doesn't happen all the time, but most of the time. I firmly believe that she has some issue that prevents her from being sexually intimate with me; I believe it absolutely, and also believe that she has no clue as to what it is, or even that there MIGHT be something wrong there. So often, I have seen her get to a comfortable enough level with me, that she can stop therapy, stop communicating with me about sensitive stuff (i.e. SEX), and act as though everything is fine, when it's not. You know, it's weird.....when she has been her MOST sexually enjoyable to me, is when we are at our worst in terms of our relationship, and when she should be the most vulnerable:
Exhibit A) She suspected I was having an affair with some woman (I wasn't), and we went somewhere for New Year's Eve to stay the night. After the party at the hotel, we went back to the room (this was days after she was suspecting this woman, and still didn't believe my story) and she dressed up in [censored]-me heels, garter belt, awesome bra, and we screwed like crazy for two hours. After that, back to normal.
Exhibit B) After the affair I did have, four years ago or so, she opened up like mad sexually and allowed me to get her pregnant with our daughter. That was fine by me, but fast forward to earlier this year, she was still saying she couldn't have sex with me because she didn't trust me still. Well then, why did we have a kid together? Why did she have sex with me like a *normal* person, and then when she got pregnant, it all went back to no sex? I felt duped, and still do, even though she says I'm wrong to feel that way.
Exhibit C) Last September, when I had been distant from her for a month, giving her the cold shoulder because I didn't think I loved her any more, and acted like it, I went to sleep earlier than her one Sunday night. I was half-asleep when she woke me up telling me that she wanted to screw. My wife just does not do this. I obliged. I thought something was up, but when my spouse wants sex, I give her sex (stupid me). The next day, she said she did it because she thought she was losing me, and that she wanted to bring me back using the sex. I told her that my feelings had not changed just with one sex act. So, guess what....it stopped after that. Stopped COLD.
Do you see a pattern here? You should. She can't do these things as a normal course of our relationship. It's always part of an agenda. She may be trying to push me away,a nd not even realizing it. Trouble is, it's working. Nevertheless, I rub her shoulders, kiss her like a lover, talk to her like my best friend, carry my share of the chores at home, do the cooking, give the little one her baths, and be as loving as I can without giving the slightest hint that I want any sex at all from her. It's just a non-issue. I don't touch her sexually any more, don't grab her ass when I hold her (she has a great ass), and say nothing sexually suggestive. The closest I go is: Damn, you look great honey! Basically, I give her what I believe she wants. I'm doing it her way. As long as she's being a mommy, spending money, and enjoying my company on her terms, all is well. What will happen if I bring up sex right now? Who the f**k knows. I think I'll get the same damn lip service I've always got, followed possibly by a token sex act, followed by....things going back to the way they were. All so that she can continue hiding from whatever she's hiding from.
That said, how would you suggest I cut back? What would I stop doing? Should I become surly and distant? Should I only make dinner for myself? I have been doing some stuff just for myself. I go away for a day or two on mountain bike rides, and have even started going to concerts by myself (saw Metallica a couple weeks ago, and will see the Psychedelic Furs next month). Most of the time though, I feel like I need to be at her disposal. We must always be together, for whatever reason. She seems to have comfort in having me there, like some kind of security, but again, on her terms. I know guys that pretty much do as they please in their homes. Not me. I know that I'm a good man, a good husband, and a good father. I'd like to find a woman who knows how to treat me in terms of a partnership.
Geez. Sorry for the long-winded post. I'll check back later, or tomorrow. Everyone have a great weekend.
I checked out your pst over there on Johanna's thread. I'm going to read that thread in its entirety, since I find that Johanna and I are very much alike as far as our situations.
I wish my wife would give me a blow job. She's stated that she doesn't like doing it (even though she didn't have a problem with it early in our relationship). It's not a place I can go with her. Conversely, I love giving her oral sex. For a long time, I would ask if I could start her day with a smile by giving her oral sex, with no expectation for anything in return. Of course she would let me. I don't do that any more, however. Not that I can't, I just won't. You have to read this whole thread to understand why. I'd rather give that talent to another woman who's more appreciative. I could do it before without any expectations, but not any longer.
Just curious...is a bj every man's fantasy, especially if the man is the LD partner? My H really doesn't like me to touch him although he will sometimes permit me to touch him briefly before sex. We basically have no foreplay before the limited amount of sex that we have. He pushes my hand away so often that I really wouldn't be comfortable trying anything beyond that even though it is not something that I object to in any way.
Did you read the post twice because something may be striking a cord, or because you are so further dumbfounded by my crazy thinking you just can't wrap your mind around it?
I'm not being flippant, I just don't want to waste our time.
I think the three examples you gave support what I think might be your wife's fears...if she thinks she is losing you, she'll wrap you in a vice grip so tight your head will spin. And then as you say, when she feels comfy again, it's the same ole same ole.
But that isn't fixing your problem. You can't go through life trying to always convince her you are leaving. And that wasn't really what I was suggesting...I don't think you think that, either.
You're pussy-whipped (not you per se...just need the word). Well, so?
It isn't about power, though most of us make it to be that and we end up here...I think the two of you are stuck in a power struggle neither one of you intended to make. The angle of it is, you are operating in awareness, and she isn't....not because she can't, but because she just isn't there yet...you giving and giving and giving sets her up to continue her same modus operendi. I really don't think she is aware of what she is doing beyond responding to deep seeded fear...hence the periodic f*ck fests when she thinks you are ready to hit the road.
The cuddling, the holding hands, the backrubs...she risks no vulnerability in sharing that with you. Now sex...what can possibly be more intimate...when can we possibly be more vulnerable...especially when you are a woman and a man is physically entering your body?
When she does come around and have sex with you...or in the instances you mentioned that she cut loose...my theory is that her fear of losing you was able to override her fear of the intimacy...there is a theory out that the only way to rid oneself of a fear is to either face it, or replace it with another fear. Since she has not faced her fear of intimacy, her fear of losing you at the moment has become greater, and she flings herself at you in desperation. (I mean no offense).
You cutting off the supply of never ending giving (not for spite, or out of anger, but out of love), disables her defenses. She has to go to plan B because she has no other choice. If you withdraw in anger, she still stays hidden in her shell because she is still defending the fort.
You redirecting your efforts to yourself and removing the limelight from her while still being cordial, happy and family oriented keeps her fear of you leaving tamped, (because you are not showing the typical signs of leaving) and at the same time disables the fear of intimacy because you are offering none...at least none that threaten her.
You have then broken the pattern of your combined behavior. When she comes out of auto-pilot, she WILL recognize this.
I mean, if you want to hold her hand, hold her hand. If you don't want to, then don't. If YOU want to go on a trip and you want to take her, do it. If not, don't. But anything beyond brotherly affection I would leave out of the picture until she has had some time to realize that the bank is closed and you aren't leaving.
At some point she is going to have to face this, but I think one step at a time. When she realizes you ARE on her side, I think you will be on a new frontier with your wife.
How do you cut back? By keeping yourself busy. Doesn't mean you have to be absent from he house, but when you are in it, you follow your own agenda. Yeah, stop cooking as frequently. Stop washing her car. Stop picking up her laundry just because you think she might appreciate it...unless you just want to do it for giggles. Stop anticipating her needs, I guess. If she asks you to do something and you want to do it, fine. If you don't, tell her you don't have time right now, you're taking your daughter for ice cream. Hell, I don't know...I don't know your patterns...I'm sure you can think of all the things you do for her because you think she'd appreciate it. Stop doing those things.
If she wants a roommate, be a roommate. It doesn't have to be cruel, and you don't have to be surly.
I went on far longer than I intended to. I don't think this makes you PW, by the way. And even if it does, who the hell cares. You and a few of us at Dysfunction Junction know about it. If it saves your marriage, helps your wife face her fears, and you find happiness in the process, well, yippee for all the Bubba's in the world who'd smirk if they knew. You don't have to live with them.
Off to bed. I've got someone of my own who needs some attention.
Well, I for one have been on something of a book buying spree this week; I've added "Crucial Conversations" to my list of purchases. Don't want to see the Visa bill, but then I never do (even though we pay it off almost every month). I'll let you know if it helps; thanks for the tip.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
I think it was the Commander of the 1st Marine Division at the Chosin Resevoir who said, "RETREAT?? Hell, we're just fighting in another direction!!" Not to imply that I'm comparing you and Corri to a half-million homicidal Chinese...although there are times I think that situation might be preferable to facing my W. When things are calmer, we compare it more to another quote: "Don't make me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry." Have a good one!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Corri, you can shrink my head any day lady! That post probably got to the root of the problem. I know it was a big problem in my marriage. We both dealt with fears of abandonement and fears of intimacy. Thinking about it though makes my head feel fuzzy. Not a very intellectual way to describe what goes on in someone's head who deals with those particular issues, but a proper way when trying to help someone understand what someone with those issues feels.
I could intellectualize what I felt and why I felt it but when it came to taking constructive steps to rid myself of the fears that were doing so much damage I was clueless. When we are clueless as far as changing a certain way we feel we usually go into denial mode. I'm sure that is what goes on with cloudnine's wife. I don't have time now for much thought on this...got mommy stuff to do. It's very interesting and something I didn't pick up on because it's still something I struggle with and push to the back of my mind out of ignorance. I look forward to reading what else is said here.
VA, I'm glad you are going to buy the book. It is, without a doubt, the best I have ever read as far as trying to engage in conversation. I get very frustrated with books that give you a general idea of what you should or shouldn't be doing. I need specifics. I need to be told what to do in a specifice situation, how to respond or what move to make next. This book teaches you how to use the correct words and at the correct time. It's like a road map and believe me, I depend on road maps. It has been a major help to me.
Give me a half million homicidal chinese and I will teach them a thing or two about being aggressive. They might not win friends and influence people with the things I could show them but they could damned sure do some damage....I know I have over the years Cathy
