Brian, these things you do for her, are they things she expressed she needed from you. Or, are they things you think she needs and think should help her feelings? That's a biggy.
Let's take sex out of the picture...just do away with it for now. What things does she do for you that help you feel loved by her? My ex was a very considerate man. He would do small things like cover me with a blanket when I was napping, run the vacumm cleaner when needed or pitch in the laundry. I, in turn didn't really need those things and to be honest with you often felt that he was encroaching on my job as wife and mother when he did them. That was not his intention, it was his way of saying I love you enough to help. One thing I have learned is this...we show others our love for them in ways we would want them to show love for us. If I had been paying attention to the small things my ex was doing for me and had had the knowledge I would have known that those were exactly the kinds of things he needed in return.
Watch her actions, the loving things she does for you and you will get great insight into what she needs to feel loved. This vacation you resently took where the sex was great. What was different when you were on vacation? What was missing from your relationship that is normally there or what was there more of that is not able to be shared when back in the real world. The sex was better and it didn't have anything to do with how much you paid for the trip or where you actually went. It had to do with waht went on between the 2 of you while you were there.
You learn so much about what another person needs from you by watching what they do for you. Be careful not to miss the small signs. Watch what she does for her children also. There may be a little girl inside somewhere that needs that kind of affection and attention...some taking care of maybe?
No one is trying to batter you and I hope you can soon stop feeling as if they are. No one wants you to ignore your feelings either. I think most of all we just don't want you to miss something, don't want you to throw in the towel before all the bases are touched. We give suggestions and who knows, we might hit on something you haven't thought of yet. Call it brainstorming. Cathy~
I don't even know where to start. I started this thred because I truly wanted to throw my situation out there and get some support. I have got it, in some respects, but everyone should know by now that I'm intelligent enough to make a decision on my own. I don't need validation for leaving my marriage. I take a very logical approach to things in life, and am doing so here. I get the impression that, because I'm not a pushover like a certain other man on this BB, some participants find it maddening.
For about two days, I didn't say a peep on this thread. Poe posted something yesterday, and I responded to it. I do these things for my wife because they make me feel good, but also because she has asked me to do such things, and for me to stop being distant, and preoccupied with work, and making her do all the work at home with the girls. I have responded to her wishes, and have found it to be satisfying. I want the same from her. These things are important to her, and now they are important to me. I expect, not want...EXPECT...the same from her. That was the deal folks. We were at the end of the line earlier this year, and we agreed to change for the betterment of our marriage.
I happen to believe that there is nothing wrong with doing/saying things when I don't want/mean to. You gotta do that in a marriage, like it or not. When I tell her that she's beautiful, 90 percent of the time I mean it. That other 10 percent is one of the many tiny sacrifices that a person can make to please the other. I may not feel like it because I'm in a rush, or I'm pissed at her from the night before, or whatever; but I do it because it is the right thing to do. There is nothing insincere about it.
Cathy, I'll re-read your notes, because I find some good advice here. In fact, I am going to re-read this entire thread and pick out the advice that everyone's given me and structure it into some action plan of sorts. It has been spread all over the thread, and I need to collect it into a coherent structure of advice. I have asked some pointed questions that have gone unanswered on this thread, which means that either there are no answers, or the answers are not good for the responders. (For instance: why, in the face of all this long-lasting adversity with a spouse unwilling to change, keep at this in your marriage. And don't tell me it is because you love him/her. It has to be more than that.)
Off to get ready for work now. Thanks again everyone.
CN: (or should I call you Brian? Which would you prefer?)
I'm going to throw something out at you I posted on another thread and see if it sparks anything with you.
My H is an HD person. What he used to do, as you seem to also do, is think of everything under the sun he could do to make me happy. So he'd go out and do x, y or z...and wait. For me to notice. For me to comment. For me to reward. And I didn't. Not because I'm insensitive...I'd react to his offerings, but typically not in the fashion he EXPECTED. Then he'd get hurt, angry, whatever.
Then sex sure wasn't happening 'cuz who wants to have sex with someone that's angry at you? Which then only caused more anger, and so on and so forth. And I'd be perplexed. Why?
First of all...he was anticipating and doing things he THOUGHT I'd want or appeciate, or I had in fact metioned would be nice for him to do. So, he'd go do that. He had his list. He was doing all these things for me, but in so doing, he was expecting something in return.
That isn't good, clean, honest, giving. That's bartering.
By some stroke of luck or act of God, I figured out his MO. And I sat him down to explain to him that it wasn't his good deeds that I didn't appreciate, or him...I explained to him that I resented his anger when I didn't react the way he 'hoped' I would.
"You won't even let me give to you," he would say.
And I'd say in return, "that's because you aren't 'giving.' You're bartering...or trying to. If you were actually 'giving' we wouldn't even be having this discussion."
Giving, whether it's a good deed, thoughtful gesture, or whatever, is in itself the reward. The pure act of giving is not for others, it is for ourselves. We give purely to make ourselves feel good. And when we give purely, it doesn't matter one iota how the other person responds because there is no expectation attached to the deed.
You seem to have a solid grasp on half of this concept. But if you truly want to be 'giving,' do it for yourself, feel good about it, and leave it at that. The more your give 'purely,' well, the more giving you become. That, your spouse will notice.
You've stated yourself that you are a logical man and you approach 'problems' in a logical fashion. Boy howdy is that my husband. There isn't anything wrong with that, but logic and love don't always mix.
Let's see. From birth, we are trained in patterns of reward and punishment. A real binary approach to a universe that is anything but. I suppose we do that so our children can learn the boundary system of our society. Anyway, in school, we learn that if we 'get' what the teacher is teaching and we can demonstrate that learning well, we get an A. If we don't get it, or are poor at explaining or demonstrating our understanding, then we get lower grades depending on the scale of expectation for performance.
In the professional world, if we work hard, go the extra mile, etc., etc., we get promotions, raises (sometimes we get screwed pretty good, too), but you see my simple point with my two examples.
In most cases, we give because we get, and we damn well expect it, too...after all, we've spent our entire lives learning this very important lesson.
I think you are naturally expecting the same thing from your relationship, because, hey, that's how 90% of the rest of the world logically works. Yes?
I can't tell you why, but I can tell you that it has not been my experience that this is how true, loving relationships work. I think a good many others here who have, or who are beginning to experience positive changes in their relationships, would concur. And that's not because we've all become push-overs. I may be naive about some things in this world, I'm flat out wrong about others, I was damn good at what I did for a living for the last 10 years...but, honey, I am no push-over.
I'm wondering, just for the sake of....oh...let's say...a dare...or even a flat out challenge....you'd be willing to explore this 'logical' (or illogical if you will) concept with me that I and some others have applied to our own sex starved, brink of divorce relationships that you seem to think you have the corner market on (that was a cheap shot, sorry, couldn't help it...but I'm leaving it anyway).
See, I think I've got you pegged....at least enough to have an interesting discussion. I'll go toe-to-toe with you. What the hell do you have to lose except a wife and child you adore and love, and one seriously condesending attitude?
Quote: (For instance: why, in the face of all this long-lasting adversity with a spouse unwilling to change, keep at this in your marriage. And don't tell me it is because you love him/her. It has to be more than that.)
cloudnine, I'm going to answer your question with the first reason that comes to mind. I don't think it is going to be something you want to hear but please don't stop reading. It's not the only thing I have to say on the subject but just what I feel is the most important thing.
Why keep at it? I would do it over again, never make a complaint and live feeling blessed to have my marriage whole if it meant taking away the utter and absolute hell my children have lived for the past 4 and 1/2 years. I would live with a man I hated, couldn't tolerate and wished dead if it meant them retaining the security they knew in an intact family. I think that is the thing that motivates most of us here when we try and help people find solutions to problems...our desire to not see another family torn apart.
That being said, if you can't maintain a secure environment for your family and they are getting the security they need because you and your wife are at odds all the time then by all means get out. I think, bottom line, with me, if there are children involved then what you or I might need or want in our marriage is inconsequential.
I also know from experience that marriage is no bed of roses. Whoever you are married to you are going to have differences. According to you your first marriage was great sex wise but there were problems in other areas. This one is great in other areas but the sex is bad. What is the third one going to be like? What do you do when you wind up in a third marriage facing problems? Do you shuck it and move on until you find the perfect marriage?
Sex is a HUGE issue and when you are doing without it it is even a bigger issue. It isn't the life sustaining force that we think it is though and you begin to realize that when you are out in the real world by yourself. I would go back tomorrow in a heart beat. I like myself better as a person today than I ever have in my life. I am a better person because of the adversity I suffered during my divorce. I'm not any happier though now that I'm out here and can have better more frequent sex. I have found that I miss the emotional stability that my marriage had to offer a hell of a lot more than I miss regular sex. I would go back with my ex knowing there would only be sex 2 times a year because I have learned the hard way that what made my marriage solid wasn't the amount of sex I was having but the amount of emotional support I was getting and giving in the marriage.
I would go back just so I could see the sparkle in my son's eyes once again and the look of comfort and securityon their faces that a child gets when their parents love each other. I would go back so that I could show them that solving a problem didn't neccesarily mean destroying a family.
If I could go back, I would go back knowing that I would be giving up something important to me. It would mean adjusting my attitude as far as my need for sex but it would be replaced with knowing I had a life partner I trusted and loved and one who trusted and loved me and in my mind that is well worth the few moments of excitement I get from sex.
When we are so focused on what we are doing without, we tend to miss what we have and minimize it's importance in our lives. These are my thoughts and my feelings after divorce and living in a single world for nearly 5 years.
You and only you can come to a decision as far as what is right for you. You have to weigh what you have against what you don't have and decide which is more important. Make a list of all the benefits you feel you get from your marriage then list all the negatives. Be careful not to let the lack of one thing in that marriage cause you to discount all the other things you are getting from it.
You hurt and are doing without a basic human need. That is sick but life isn't fair and we are not, at any time promised that it will be fair. It's a trade off and you have to be very, very careful before you go trading things in for something that might appear to be better. I can only talk to you based on my own experience. You may choose to leave and have a totally different experience than I have had. You may find it to be the best move you ever made. Your wife may find some man out there who knows exactly what she needs to keep her motor humming constantly. Who knows? The only thing I know is this...life, love, marriage, anything we are faced with brings us joy and happiness based on the attitude we have about it. You have to make your own decisions cloudnine but you are smart enough to make informed decisions. That's why you are here right? Cathy~
You say that I think I have cornered the market on bad relationships, just from my posts? And you call ME condescending?? But I digress.
Like I wrote in my previous post, I need to go back through this whole thread and take the advice that has been peppered throughout it, write it down, rearrange it into a coherent form, and see if I am willing to trudge forward with that advice. So, to answer your question, I am ready to take the challenge, as you call it. Done not intimidate me in the least.
The tone of your responses seem to willfully ignore the fact that my W has explicitly stated, in front of me and a therapist on multiple occasions, that she is willing and able to take specific steps toward improving our relationship. We each had our lists of wants, and I have followed through. She has not. Let me repeat that....SHE HAS NOT. How long does a spouse put up with THAT? I have wrote time and again that I want to feel like a priority to her, just like she wants to feel that way to me. She has stated that she does finally feel like a priority. I cannot say the same.
I don't really think you are accurate in saying that I'm only playing a game of barter by doing good things for her. How dare you say that! Rather presumptuous of you, don't you think? You don't have me figured out like you think you do. Please don't project your H onto me, or some composite picture that you have of other men on this BB. I am as aware as anyone, just through life experience, that doing good makes me feel good, whether it be for my W, my daughters, my mother, co-workers, or total strangers. A marriage is a partnership, where there is give and take. I ust feel like for me it's give, give, give.
The only thing I can say that I'm really keeping track of is how often we have sexual encounters. That is because sex is important to me. Duh! It's much of what got us into a therapist's office, so why shouldn't I? We spent hours and hours talking about it, and now it's still sitting there as something that is very unresolved.
Cathy, your post made me swallow hard. Knowing that you would go back if possible (that's what I took from it), makes me think hard. You're right that it could go either way if I left: it could be the best thing for both of us, or tragic for us and our kids. In my original post, I mentioned the story in SSM of the woman who found a wonderful relationship after leaving her husband (another point no one has been willing to address), so I tend to cling on to that, whereas leaving could mean giving up on a woman who generally makes me very happy, and who I trust implicitly.
Before I get down to studying my thread again, let me ask another question: how would any of you advise my W, if you could? I'd really like your advice from another angle. Is your advice: You go girl, you're doing great?
All the best,
Brian (call me anything you want, except condescending)
I guess it comes down to that old "Dear Abby" question: Are you better off with her or without her? Good exercise for your logical side to think about everything you get out of the relationship with her, how it affects you being married to her, not being married to her, and how it affects those you care about. Then compare that with what is currently missing, examine your priorities and values, and see which decision is best. Keeping in mind that the way things are now does not mean they will always be that way.
Which is more disturbing to you: the lack of sex or her not seeming to put the effort into making changes she said she was interested in making?
There is something I noticed from some of your earlier posts. You gave her an ultimatum about getting over your internet affair. You felt she was taking too much time. You are thinking of giving her an ultimatum about how long she has to figure out how to make changes regarding sex. You think she is taking too much time. Is it possible that you two have different ideas/needs about the time it takes to work through something? One of the many individual differences in humans to be worked out in a marriage.
My advice to your W would be based on what she told me the barriers were to moving ahead on her desire to make changes. If she just couldn't tell me what those barriers were, I'd give her a very strong suggestion that she spend some time thinking about what is getting in her way. I could give you a laundry list of potential barriers and what I'd suggest to your wife, but this post would be too long and might not have any relevance to your wife's actual barriers.
Thank you MPT, but how did you get from my earlier posts that I gave her an ultimatum? Can you quote where I said that? I believe what I said, without going thru the whole thread again, was that I was willing to remain in a guest bedroom until she was willing to move forward, and not let that issue pollute our marriage any longer. I put the ball in her court, and I did not assign any time frame to it. That is not an ultimatum. Also, in therapy, I told her that if she could not let it go, to be honest with herself and with me and say so. She insisted that she could leave it behind. Again, where is the ultimatum? It really sounds more like the differences between me and my W. You see ultimatums, pressure to change, me looking for bliss; I see it as following through on promises, and giving basic attention to a relationship. My commentary seems to get twisted into things that are not even said, or intended.
I’ve decided to call you Brian because it is shorter to type:
You are correct, I do not know you. I guessed.
If your return post is any indication, I'd say I was pretty good at guessing what would push your buttons. It was a dirty, rotten, stinking underhanded thing for me to do.
Quote:
The tone of your responses seem to willfully ignore the fact that my W has explicitly stated, in front of me and a therapist on multiple occasions, that she is willing and able to take specific steps toward improving our relationship. We each had our lists of wants, and I have followed through. She has not. Let me repeat that....SHE HAS NOT.
Again, you are correct. She has not. At least, I assume she hasn't based on what you've said. Now what?
Have you asked her if she thinks she's been working on the issues you've discussed in therapy the last two months? You may have already responded to this one and I can't go look right now to see, so please refresh me if you would. If you did ask her, what did she say? If you haven't, why not ask?
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How long does a spouse put up with THAT?
I don't know...how long does one dig for gold before they decide to give up? I suppose that all depends on how bad one wants to find gold. I'm not being flippant. My H would say he put up with it for 13 years. I'd say I put up with it for 13 years. In the year 2000 (10 yr mark), I decided I'd give my marriage one more year, and if it hadn't improved, I was bailing. I did the same thing in 2001, 2002, and 2003.
I hit pay dirt the fourth month of 2003.
But I'm pretty much a tenacious b*tch when I want to be, hardheaded, I can debate like an SOB on wheels, I can admit when I'm wrong even though there isn't anything I hate more than eating crow, I can be rather preachy, can be condescending with the best of them, and last, but in no way least, I'm more stubborn than 100 frickin mules put together if given a cause I believe in.
I've settled on you as my latest cause because I personally believe you've got what it takes to find your gold.
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I don't really think you are accurate in saying that I'm only playing a game of barter by doing good things for her.
I didn't say you were playing a game. I said when one gives something and wants something in return, that is called bartering. Look it up.
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How dare you say that!
Because I can. It's a free world. I didn't say you had to agree with me. We can be civil, you know.
Quote:
Rather presumptuous of you, don't you think?
Yes, I do. Don't you just hate it when other people presume, presume, presume, especially when one hasn't walked in someone else's shoes, or criticizes something or someone when they haven't even tried it themselves? It is just down right annoying when people do that.
Quote:
You don't have me figured out like you think you do.
That really got you when I said that, didn't it?
Quote:
Please don't project your H onto me, or some composite picture that you have of other men on this BB.
Okay. Deal. (I didn't do that, for the record. I personally think you and I would last exactly 8.5 seconds in a room together, so rest assured I did not compare you with my H. You share a similar quality in that you both describe yourselves as logical thinkers. That’s all I said).
Quote:
I am as aware as anyone, just through life experience, that doing good makes me feel good, whether it be for my W, my daughters, my mother, co-workers, or total strangers.
Okay, great. So then why do you continue to list out all the stuff you do for her and have nothing to show for it? If you're not worried about it, why even bring it up? Where's the relevance?
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A marriage is a partnership, where there is give and take.
Who the HELL told you that?
Quote:
I just feel like for me it's give, give, give.
See, we’re onto that giving thing again, and I’m thinking this is a real sticking point with you. If you feel good when you give because that is in fact why you give (as you have clearly stated), what's your point?
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The only thing I can say that I'm really keeping track of is how often we have sexual encounters. That is because sex is important to me. Duh!
I personally keep track of rainy days so I know exactly how many days the sun is not showing up to provide me with all that sunshine I love and need. I'm pretty pissed at the sun right now because it has withheld so much from me this summer.
And I bet your thinking I'm a pretty serious nut case right now because we all know that no one has that kind of control.
Cathy's post scared the [censored] of you, didn't it? It did me, too. It should. You might want to print that one, and keep it to read when you're feeling at wits end.
Quote:
how would any of you advise my W, if you could? I'd really like your advice from another angle. Is your advice: You go girl, you're doing great?
Absolutely not. But I would ask her if she thought she was trying to meet her goals. If she said no, I'd ask why she thought she wasn't, or maybe couldn't. And then I guess I'd go from there.
And Brian, I promise I won't call you condescending again 'cuz I can see how it really pisses you off.
Brian, I didn't mean to scare you. I just wanted to give you some insight into things you might not have thought about. People tend to think of divorce as the magic cure for the problem, it ain't no cure. All it does is load you down with a bunch more to deal with.
I want to ask you a question. You say that you love your wife and adore her. Then you say she might meet someone who would be better for her. I'm having a hard time understanding how the idea of her being with someone else does not bother you if you love her and adore her so much. Can you honestly say that if you two divorced you would not be bothered by the idea of some other man living in your home with your children and sleeping with your wife nightly? Divorce normally means every other weekend visitation and maybe a night out for dinner during the week. Extended visits during the summer and Christmas so compared to the time you spend with them now your influence in your girl's lives would be cut drastically. If you wife is as beautiful as you say she is it wouldn't take her long to find someone else. Young attractive women get snatched up real quick out here in the single world. I am to understand that you wouldn't be bothered by the fact that some man, other than yourself, would be living the life you have now? See, if I were a man that would make my butt want to crochet barbed wire. I guess I am a little more territorial than you are.
What would I say to your wife. First I would probably ask her to list all the things she doesn't like about you. Just for the fun of it cause it's really immaterial. Then I would ask her what steps she has taken to solve the problem and if she feels she has been successful at it. If she said yes, I'd let her know she was mistaken, if she said no, I would ask her what she feels she should do next. Then we would go from there I suppose. I would never say, "you go girl." No way!!
Cathy~
LOL!!! Corri, my ex actually called me a "tenacious b$tch" one time. I thanked him. I have learned to tone it down a bit. I used to be known as "killer bunny" on the boards when I first started posting cause I was so outspoken and opinionated. I like reading your posts and really like the way you keep things stirred up. Bet you would be fun to have as a neighbor. Cathy~
