I popped over here to see how you was makin out. I get hammered around when I vent my frustration on this board too. Tell ya what, meaning no offense to all the posters who are giving you thier advise and opinions, I will leave that to them and won't give you any of my own.
What I will offer you is this, since we both get very frustrated, and need to vent, lash out, whatever, and we both seem to speak the same language, we can set up a different thread called "Banging Head on Wall" or something like that and we can vent to eachother. Sometimes it's enough just to know that someone will listen and identify, know what I mean.
But before you start quoteing Martin Luther King, " Free at Last, Free at Last..." and leave her, you should listen to these people, some of it is a bit on the wussy side but your getting some pretty good advise.
I dragged my butt out of bed this morning, grabbed my cup of coffee, walked to the PC and logged on to find.....GEEZ, look at all those posts!! I read thru every one while W was in the shower, and thought about them until getting to the office. I just re-read everything here at my desk, and even took notes because there's so much to respond to.
Let me start by expressing my gratitude to all of you for your thoughts. You're giving me a significant amount of your time and energy to my situation, and I am VERY appreciative. If you're every in Los Angeles, I'll treat you to any dinner you wish, then we'll go throw eggs at Barbara Streisand's house. It'll be fun!
My responses:
I could use bribery to get her to read the book. I'm surprised, MPT, that you had to resort to this. Something seems upside-down in your story. Aren't you the LD spouse? I'd think that your H would be bribing YOU. I guess I could do this, but I really wanted her to do it, because she said she would. Let me think about it a bit more.
Corri, my W has complained about sex hurting her, but she went to the doctor who prescibed something to lessen that pain. Unfortunately, she hasn't tested enough to know if it worked or not. Her past issue with me has to do with an internet fling I had after we got married. It tore her up, as it should, but it kept coming up as an issue. I finally told her in therapy that if she could not get over this, it was okay with me; I told her very sincerely that I regretted that part of our history, but we had a child subsequent to that affair and had a responsibility to her and to our commitment to each other. If she still could not get over it, she should let me go. She insisted, in front of the therapist, that she could, and would get over it. That she had to do this for herself in order to move forward.
You're right that a pattern has been created between us. A pattern of silence. I can't really say that we're adversarial, but if this subject gets raised, it can become adversarial. Hence, we don't discuss it. The subject is too charged for us, and we both know it. I want her to change, although I don't expect her to. My obsession is counting each day that nothing happens in our love life. Last night, we watched TV, and I held her close, rubbing her shoulders. I know she likes this, and I will continue doing this for her. I have not held back from doing what I know she likes. But, I also think to myself that I'm getting gypped once again...she gets what she wants, and I'm left with slef-pleasure. What a bargain! I'm angry about it, sure. But I'm afraid to say anything, lest she get upset that I'm not vaildating the efforts she is making. I can hear her say...*we had great sex in Cabo on our vacation, what's the big deal?*.
I think I have to go back and read the book, and where it says that the LD spouse has nothing wrong with him/her. I don't remember that. I don't see her as normal. She has a horny, handsome man in her bed every night, and doesn't want him. Is that really normal? Like I said, I should read the book again. It's been about 3 or 4 months. When she said that she was not satisfied with how she was being to me, I told her that she was fine. Keep in mind that was over 2 months ago. I was trying to give her a supportive environment, and let her know that she could have room to grow. If she said that today, I might be more direct with her. I do feel that I've done all that can be done. We don't communicate about this because the history, as I said, is so charged. I feel like I'm in an emotional cul-de-sac, a dead-end. If I turn around, I'm just going backward to the misery we've experienced in the past. It feels kinda hopeless.
I don't think the desire's all gone in my wife. Speaking frankly, I think she has a really delicious slut buried inside of her. I think I know this better than she does. She's a gorgeous woman, and we could have so much fun together sexually if she let that part of her out. There is something about her that is closeted. She insists that she was not molested or anything when young. She was raised in ehr formative years only by her mom, who is sexually repressed. She also does not have a good relationship with her dad, and I think that's a red-flag for any future relationship I may have with a woman. They project their disappointment about their father onto their spouse (I'm sure men do it too about their mothers).
I have to really be honest here and say that I expect to be disappointed by my wife in this area. I've lost confidence in her. I think the only way to really communicate to her is to return to the guest bedroom to stay, and let her know that this is the first step to me being gone. Maybe this will shock her into a realizaion of how serious I am. The risk is that she may be fine with that, and so be it.
Can you blame me? I should get back to work. Thanks again for all of your support. I'm so grateful.
Now, now, I didn't say your wife was normal. I said that some LDers don't experience desire until after things get going...and that is normal. I happen to be one of those people. I was hoping for your sake that maybe your wife was like this, too.
You know, my shrink once suggested to my H and I that if we couldn't keep the fighting and the tension out of our bedroom, then one of us might consider sleeping elsewhere in the house. For your child, at least, this is a much, much better option than seperation or divorce.
You are correct about your slip earlier in your marriage...not the best move. However, this IS something the two of you can get over, and you are right, she is going to have to forgive you and let it go, or she is going to at least have to be honest enough with you to say she can't get over it and move on.
I did something similiar once...and all the flogging in the world cannot match the flogging I put myself through. I can't explain it. It was a thoroughly stupid move on my part. I understand the hurt I caused, I was more than sorry for it...and I gave him more than a year to come to grips with it. I didn't get physical with the person, but my H's imagination of all that could have happened tortured him. I, like you, finally had to tell him I had had enough because he just kept using it against me.
Fortunately for the both of us, he was able to do that. And we stay well away from the subject now.
If your indiscretion is in fact still tripping her up...well, I'd say she had best head back to the shrink. Is this something you can get out of her without starting WW III?
You seem pretty confident that she isn't going to change, and I have no reason to doubt your belief. However, I do think everyone can change with the proper motivation.
Maybe you should move back into the guest room. Sit her down, tell her how hurt you are that it seems TO YOU she hasn't followed through on your action plans...see if she thinks she has...and pending the outcome of that conversation, tell her where you are in your thinking....not to deliver an ultimatum, but just so she knows where you are with things. This does not have to be an angry conversation...and if she explodes...let her explode. But try your darnest to stay calm so she knows the seriousness of the situation and that this truly isn't just a ploy of yours to apply more pressure. The scariest and most honest conversatios my H and I ever had was when all the anger and hostility were gone, and we both just layed things out on the table. Took us 13 years to have the conversation.
Just because you move into another bedroom does not mean, however, that you have to stop talking, or doing couple's things, or telling her you love her. It is an opportunity for you both to have honest conversations. The purpose of the bedroom seperation is to keep tension levels down...to give you both a breather...to let the stage you have reached in your marriage really sink in for the both of you.
I truly hope for your sake things work out. I hope you keep us posted on how things progress.
Thank you for the kind thoughts. Another point I left out is that she had a close encounter like you did, soon after my indiscretion. I found out about it and confronted her. It added to our miserable existence at the time, but I have completely let that situation go, and do not even consider raising it. I need her to do the same. She dones not bring it up any longer, but I can't help but wonder if it still eats at her.
I'll keep you posted on everything as this progresses. I just got back from purchasing a new pearl necklace for her birthday this Friday. It's not a bribe; I'd buy it for her regardless. I adore this woman, and know she'll love it. I want her to have a happy birthday, then we have a big annual Halloween party to plan for. After that, I'll need to get serious about this, depending on where we're at.
Quote: I could use bribery to get her to read the book. I'm surprised, MPT, that you had to resort to this. Something seems upside-down in your story. Aren't you the LD spouse? I'd think that your H would be bribing YOU. I guess I could do this, but I really wanted her to do it, because she said she would. Let me think about it a bit more.
I use bribery for different things. And it's not like its my only strategy.
There are all kinds of things a spouse can feel starved about. My suggestions to you don't come from "the other side." They come from having been exactly where you are, but with respect to something other than sex. Believe me...what I wanted from my spouse was every bit as important to me as sex is to you. I was just as angry and resentful, questioning my spouse's love for me, wondering how I was going to survive if nothing changed. Heck, I even bit someone's head off here too while in the depths of my bitterness (Sorry about that, Cathy )
We were past the sex-starved stage when I first found this site. I was experiencing no desire for my H, but I was still trying to fulfill his sexual needs. I was looking for information to help me get my libido back. Sex when you really don't want it is NO fun. But I was angry with him. I felt I was working really hard and he wasn't putting the same amount of effort into changing things about his behavior that I had brought up numerous times in the past. I'd given up and just seethed with resentment.
What happened that turned things around was a really good, long, open conversation with my H. This time, however, I took full responsibility for making sure that everything about that conversation was his way, including lots of sex the week before we had the conversation. I hadn't actually planned that part, but in hindsight I see that it was a really good idea so I'm going to take credit like I planned it. I wanted him to hear me, take it seriously, and make a commitment to making things better. It was important to me so the responsibility was mine. I chose to accept the responsibility and not be resentful about it.
He did hear me. He did take it seriously. He did make a commitment to me. He has changed some, but there is a lot that needs work and things have started to slide again. But I'm different. I've changed my attitude toward him. I don't attribute his sliding to not loving me, not being thoughtful, not caring. I attribute it to the fact that the issue isn't as much a part of his worldview, so he is going to lose focus occasionally. I can relate. I still sometimes lose focus when it comes to sex. The thing is, what I want from him is important to me , so it's my responsibility to help him get refocused. It's my responsibility to do what it takes to make sure he hears me. To make sure he hears me, I have to look at things from his perspective and use his motivations.
I don't know. Maybe you aren't important enough to your wife. Maybe she doesn't love you enough to put the effort into things for you. Do you really believe that? Does that really ring true for you? Will it be possible for you to put the effort into keeping her on track, going to the effort to figure out what you need to change about your tactics so that she stays on track? Can you do this without resentment?
Yeah, you're putting more effort into your relationship at this point and it makes you feel resentful. I doubt there will be any time of any great length when you're both putting in an equal amount of effort at the same time.
Wouldn't it be great if our spouses always kept our needs at the top of their priority list? Wouldn't it be great if they always looked at things from our perspective and put us first? Wouldn't it be great if we never had to remind them? Wouldn't it be great if they just saw things the same way we do?!
Larry and Jo Ann were an ordinary couple. They lived in an ordinary house on an ordinary street. Like any other ordinary couple, they struggled to make ends meet and to do the right things for their children.
They were ordinary in yet another way - they had their squabbles. Much of their conversation concerned what was wrong in their marriage and who was to blame.
Until one day when a most extraordinary event took place.
"You know, Jo Ann, I've got a magic chest of drawers. Every time I open them, they're full of socks and underwear," Larry said. "I want to thank you for filling them all these years."
Jo Ann stared at her husband over the top of her glasses. "What do you want, Larry?"
"Nothing. I just want you to know I appreciate those magic drawers."
This wasn't the first time Larry had done something odd, so Jo Ann pushed the incident out of her mind until a few days later.
"Jo Ann, thank you for recording so many correct check numbers in the ledger this month. You put down the right numbers 15 out of 16 times. That's a record."
Disbelieving what she had heard, Jo Ann looked up from her mending. "Larry, you're always complaining about my recording the wrong check numbers. Why stop now?"
"No reason. I just wanted you to know I appreciate the effort you're making."
Jo Ann shook her head and went back to her mending. "What's got into him?" she mumbled to herself.
Nevertheless, the next day when Jo Ann wrote a check at the grocery store, she glanced at her checkbook to confirm that she had put down the right check number. "Why do I suddenly care about those dumb check numbers?" she asked herself.
She tried to disregard the incident, but Larry's strange behavior intensified.
"Jo Ann, that was a great dinner," he said one evening. "I appreciate all your effort. Why, in the past 15 years I'll bet you've fixed over 14,000 meals for me and the kids."
Then "Gee, Jo Ann, the house looks spiffy. You've really worked hard to get it looking so good." And even "Thanks, Jo Ann, for just being you. I really enjoy your company."
Jo Ann was growing worried. "Where's the sarcasm, the criticism?" she wondered.
Her fears that something peculiar was happening to her husband were confirmed by 16-year-old Shelly, who complained, "Dad's gone bonkers, Mom. He just told me I looked nice. With all this makeup and these sloppy clothes, he still said it. That's not Dad, Mom. What's wrong with him?"
Whatever was wrong, Larry didn't get over it. Day in and day out he continued focusing on the positive.
Over the weeks, Jo Ann grew more accustomed to her mate's unusual behavior and occasionally even gave him a grudging "Thank you." She prided herself on taking it all in stride, until one day something so peculiar happened, she became completely discombobulated:
"I want you to take a break," Larry said. "I am going to do the dishes. So please take your hands off that frying pan and leave the kitchen."
(Long, long pause.) "Thank you, Larry. Thank you very much!"
Jo Ann's step was now a little lighter, her self-confidence higher and once in a while she hummed. She didn't seem to have as many blue moods anymore. "I rather like Larry's new behavior," she thought.
That would be the end of the story except one day another most extraordinary event took place. This time it was Jo Ann who spoke.
"Larry," she said, "I want to thank you for going to work and providing for us all these years. I don't think I've ever told you how much I appreciate it."
Larry has never revealed the reason for his dramatic change of behavior no matter how hard Jo Ann has pushed for an answer, and so it will likely remain one of life's mysteries. But it's one I'm thankful to live with. You see, I am Jo Ann.
I'm no so sure it is all that different cloudnine. My marriage and my attitude was very much like yours and looking back I can see where putting the theory behind that story into action in my marriage probably would have saved it.
Your wife's lack of interest in sex is a symptom of a much deeper problem. Maybe it is as simple as this story. Anyway, Poe is just giving you food for thought and so am I. Not telling you not to feel what you are feeling. Believe me, I know how much you have a right to your feelings. Just offer another perspective is all. Cathy~
Let me give you some idea of whet I've been doing for my W the past two months:
I've largely taken over cooking responsibilities. I am buying Bon Appetit mag's and cookbooks (my fav recipes) to cook up respectable dishes for the family, so she doesn't have the exclusive responsibility.
I bought a small table and two chairs that I can throw in my truck. I call her and tell her to meet me at a special beach spot of ours, where I have the table/chairs set up, and a nice spread of food laid out, along with twinkling candles. A nice romantic dinner that I try and do at least every few weeks now.
When making dinner sometimes, I ask her if she's like a jacuzzi bath tonight. (Tonight was one of those nights.) Of course, she takes me up on it, and it's a nice private time for her. I always give the toddler her baths at night.
I rub her shoulders practically every night, which she's always loved.
Every morning, I tell her how beautiful she looks. she really is beautiful, but I don't always feel like saying it.
Why do I do these things? Two reasons: they make me feel good, and BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT TO HER. I do it as selflessly as I can, but still dangling out there is the understanding that she would do more in the area of physical affection that I ENJOY. I'm keeping up my end of the bargain, but for how long?
My point is, I feel like I'm taking the attitude Poe passed along to me. Am I wrong?
Quoting Cloudnine:Every morning, I tell her how beautiful she looks. she really is beautiful, but I don't always feel like saying it.
Why do I do these things? Two reasons: they make me feel good, and BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT TO HER. I do it as selflessly as I can, but still dangling out there is the understanding that she would do more in the area of physical affection that I ENJOY. I'm keeping up my end of the bargain, but for how long?
My point is, I feel like I'm taking the attitude Poe passed along to me. Am I wrong?
Cloudnine,
Technically you are doing what Poe suggested but I'm not sure if the attitude is right though. You do these things but you sound insincere to me. (Sorry, I may be wrong). I get the impression that you are doing these things not because you really want to do them (it does not come from the heart) but rather you do them in the hope for change in your Ws attitude towards you, hence the rising resentment. (You're not doing them in the hope of becoming a better H to her but rather in the hope that she would become a better W to you.) Although you said you are doing them because it makes you feel good but notice how you highlighted BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT TO HER. On those days when you don't feel like telling her she looks beautiful in the morning, don't! Thats just saying stuff for the sake of saying them (on those mornings anyway) and thats quite meaningless.
I also get the impression that not only are you dissatisfied with quantity but quality as well. On that point, I'm curious have you simply tried showing her what pleases you and what was her reaction? In this case, action speaks a lot louder than words. Words like how come you don't do these for me etc are a passion killer, just show her what to do and how/where to touch etc instead of thinking about what you're doing for her and how much more she enjoyed herself than you afterwards. Maybe you have tried and got negative results.
Anyway you're hard to figure out. Are you her to work things out or to get validation for getting out? Sometimes you sound suspiciously like the latter.
LH
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