When our marriage got rocky years ago, I remember telling a good friend of mine that what kept us together was that we had a pretty close fitting outlook on life. All of our points would match up if we had met up on one of those "match making" dating sites.
If only our views about affection, intimacy and sex matched... then we would be perfect for each other.
Do you think part of her trust issue is that she either outright knows about or at least is pretty sure about the affairs and you have never come clean with her? Is it possible that rather than leaving, you need to give this a try first?
The risk of course is that she doesn't know and this is the final nail in the coffin, but it sounds like she knows.
CB
Me; 42, W; 43 M; 16 yrs S12, D9
3/13 - "I want to move to XYZ City (four hours away) and it might be without you, not sure" 5/13 - "Not sure I meant that"
Do you think part of her trust issue is that she either outright knows about or at least is pretty sure about the affairs and you have never come clean with her? Is it possible that rather than leaving, you need to give this a try first?
The risk of course is that she doesn't know and this is the final nail in the coffin, but it sounds like she knows.
CB
Me; 42, W; 43 M; 16 yrs S12, D9
3/13 - "I want to move to XYZ City (four hours away) and it might be without you, not sure" 5/13 - "Not sure I meant that"
I just talked to hubby yesterday about his old Tattoo again. "The cover up wasnt very good.." I told him. "Her name seems to be raised on your skin as if from hell, love..."
First time he let me say it and didnt roll his eyes or say just deal with it. I am finding the more direct I am ? The better I feel and I get what I want...... I have to keep the whip out so to speak. I cant go back to sweet Ali. I have to be strong , assured , assertive and confident Ali.
Example * probably a terrible one but I am trusting that I can say X and he receives it well.*
I will admit that *I* have gotten very defensive un the past when he says x. y or z isnt good. It hurts. I wanted to keep nursing the hurt instead of taking a leap of faith that he could be trusted.'KWIM? Why should I fix myself when you are the one who needs fixing , you will just leave when I feel comfortable???? You open your heart first and then I will open up mine..... etc etc etc
( aside from the alcohol and VA ( verbal abuse )... ) WHOLE other thing.
The trust thing taints everything she does. Even if she wants to get close give to you, She tells herself NO. He is just going to leave ,,so why bother. IMO~ random thoughts.
I think if you can get thru this, things can get lighter for you two. HOW TO GET THERE?
"I am waiting for now... I have already written an ultimatum letter and not given it to her yet. It is really not an ultimatum as much as it is a request for her to release me. If she can't truly love me and show me in a way that I feel is real and true then she must let me go."
Two questions:
(1) What's the point of the ultimatum letter? Why have you not given it to her? What are you waiting for? Your indecision as to what you want and are prepared to do to get it - actually undermines your chances of getting it.
(2) What do you mean by "she must let me go"?!? Cinco, I've mentioned the Superior Man and No More Mr Nice Guy books to you before - and you don't seem to think they're that relevant. They are very relevant to probably every man in your kind of struggle. The short point I want to make is that your mindset (which dictates your vibes and your actions - which your wife definitely picks up on) is all wrong. Your wife (no matter how much you think you love her) simply does not have the power to "hold" you in this marriage or "let you go" - only you do. This is absolutely fundamental to you and every man. Your constant theme seems to be that she has some kind of power or hold over you. She doesn't. Your whole approach and vibe towards her has to be "I have something I want to give to you - if you don't want it - that's your loss." Your current vibe appears to be that the loss is all on your side.
Then there's your last post:
"...There is a TV in there too and of course as soon as she gets in there to go to bed it is turned 'on'. The way it is set up her back is to me in bed to face the TV. If I had it my way, there would be no TV in there at all. This is something that she thinks helps her to go to sleep. Anyway by the time I wanted to relate my feelings to her she was all glued in on the damn TV."
Oh dear - I'm not even going to get into the "How the hell did a TV end up in your bedroom?" thing. Cinco, just from this one post its obvious to me that your wife is very disconnected and in avoidance mode.
"Her reaction was that I wanted to R-talk. She got all pissy and her defenses were immediately up. "Oh not this again, haven't we talked this to death enough lately?""
Well, perhaps you spend too much time analysing the relationship and not enough time being totally present in it? Too much time dwelling on the lack of sex and affection, and not enough time initiating it in a confident and full-blooded way?
"Her reaction set me off, I hate it when I let even her tone determine how I will interact with and what I end up saying to her. She turned off the TV all pissed off and said "Ok what do you want to talk about you have my attention now." This put us in complete darkness (appropriate I guess, we're still in the dark about one another)."
The short answer is that you determine your tone and speech - not her - start practising saying what you want, when and how, regardless of the external circumstances. I used to allow my wife to "set me off" and then blame her for it - I look back and cringe. (This again is something "Nice Guys" have a real problem with).
""Why am I the least important thing in your life? It seems like you'd rather watch that thing than to hear me tell you something intimate. How can we communicate and get close to each other if we don't set aside time for each other? I am the last thing you think of at the end of the day and then you are too tired for me." I said more things I can't remember it all. Things about how it hurts me to be so low on her list of priorities. Also about how I end up turning my back on her when I can't find a way to reach her and how much that hurts us both."
Sorry, Cinco - but I'm going to have to be really blunt here - that was whiny and wimpy. The problem you have is that you want a more intimate and sexual relationship with your wife. In order to do that you need to really assert that on her. All I see in what you said to her is complaints. Complaints shut a woman down. Assertion (in a clear but loving vibe) opens a woman up - mentally and then physically. Just as an example, you could have said: "Wife, its been a long time since we ML - I'm literally overflowing with juices - and I want to fill you up, right now. Tomorrow night is the night." Assertive tone, loving, giving, gives her a whole day to ready herself - and no opportunity to make excuses.
"Finally we got to the heart of the matter I asked if there was something that was holding her back from really getting close to me. "Trust holds me back. H, I don't trust that you won't leave me again.""
This I think is just an excuse - how many more years is she going to want to wait - before that satisfies her definition of "trust"?!? But Cinco, you too are waiting, hovering around her outer defences in the vague (and vain) hope that they will drop all of their own accord. You need to stop waiting for some miracle and start penetrating through her crap, rather than just tolerating it. You could have said: "Real marriage isn't about guarantees and contracts and leases, Baby. Its about showing your best effort and love - frequently, day after day. That's the kind of marriage I want. If you join me in making that kind of marriage, there's no reason I would ever leave you, or even want to. If you expect me to stay no matter how little effort and love you show, if you expect me to put up with your current apathy and laziness, then there's every chance I will leave."
"H - "Well, if we can keep the dialog going between us and learn how not to be so defensive about it maybe we can find a way to be close to each other again. We have to keep R-talking how else will we ever work through this? I don't feel comfortable with it either but it has more to do with knowing it will cause a fight than not wanting to talk about us.""
This is correct - you need to keep up the conversations and interactions (they will keep her soft and more open) - but they need to change in pattern. You must be the fearless and humorous seducer - and she wants it underneath all her excuses. You may find this hard to believe - but start thinking in those terms. If the rest of your life is good - you will have the good feelings to put out there.
"In the end I did get to hold her and tell her that she is really important to me and that I do really love her. It didn't have the meaning I had first intended after our battle of words though."
So stop saying stuff you don't mean. Women know if there is nothing behind a compliment or sentiment.
Now I'm going to boil all my points right down:
Cinco, Do you really love and desire this woman - more than any other in the whole wide world?
The majority of men in SSMs have a problem with their desire - it is simply not strong enough to penetrate the obstacles their women put in their way (have you read Sleeping Beauty?) They get thrown off course by the testing their women put out. So they either dissipate their desire in alternatives, or they tolerate a stagnant marriage because their desire for something better is not strong enough to leave either.
Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting that your wife doesn't have issues. She quite clearly does. But all you can do Cinco, is put your desire into action - if you are otherwise "sorted out" and really desire your wife in a healthy way - then there is nothing to stop you really "going for her" on all levels, without the expectation that you will change her, and without being crushed or retreating wounded when rejected.
That is a very different exercise from you what you are currently doing. And read Superior Man and No More Mr Nice Guy - they really help with how to view and approach women as a man.
How's the rest of your life going?
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
I really think the A's would have come out by now from her if she knew or suspected something. I still feel bringing the A's out now would only hurt us and especially her. At some point in the future it may be the right time.
Her only lack of trust in me is just as she has said... All about the fear that I might leave her.
About a week ago she even said I trust you H. I allow you to do the things that you like to do, like your band stuff, because I do trust you.
I trust her as well. We have never had a jealous love for each other. I can't imagine ever snooping to try to find out what she is up to. She does not snoop on me either. It's just not in our nature.
Of course I have regret about violating her trust in me. I was so weak to have ever done this. It was a terrible mistake, yet in a way it made me see that I want the passion back in my M.
I think if you can get thru this, things can get lighter for you two. HOW TO GET THERE?
What ideas do you have?
Ok , so you think the affairs opened your eyes? Ok fine go with that. It opened my eyes so now I am going after that passion, full speed ahead. But you treat her like a porcelain doll and are so afraid she is going to break? Show her your real passionate you , she wont break. Have fun with her and be silly and and strong. Everything that you are holding back she mot likely misses and even wants back.
I do think that my question? How to get there? Has been answered by S&A. Love you dearly Cinco, but yes you are getting in your own way. I loved his post.
About time S&A? What does it take to pull you out of the damn woodwork???
His advice is stellar and spot on. My H complaining to me and saying I am to blame for his unhappiness? Isnt a turn on. And yes my drive is different than MRS. CINCO.
BUT~ and a huge but.
( no pun intended... )
I loved what S&A put that you could have said instead. That would get me more motivated than saying .. Honey you still arent coming thru for me what is wrong woth you? KWIM.
PLEASE~ PLEASE, use that post to your advantage it is STELLAR. Get those damn books already. Or I will have to get out my whip I was talking about in my previous post? *< I am tapping my damn foot waiting for an answer!~!~ And Latinas are not famous for being patient. LOL~>*
Seriously hon , has anything you have been doing ? "working" ?
Lets try something new. ( I am trying something new too , being assertive and it is working.... )
I really think the A's would have come out by now from her if she knew or suspected something. I still feel bringing the A's out now would only hurt us and especially her. At some point in the future it may be the right time.
lets not even talk about the As. Over and done with .... lets work on *YOU~*. Lets work from today on. Go to Barnes and Noble and get those 2 books.
I read this last nite and thought of you and I.
pg 366 PM. Having the kind of marriage you want often involves a personal Metamorphosis.
Pleas read the first paragraph on pg. 367. I thought of you also. part C. she knows he's sold out before and figures he is not serious and will back down again.
You keep telling her you want more and then when she says no you settle . SETTLE .... YOU SETTLE for less instead of doing what S&A said. he says it so much better than I could.
So she never has to call your bluff, she can always stay comfortable the way things are. You are telling her you dont quite want it enough either by backing down. I am not saying you follow her around. Quite the contrary do what S&A said.
I think know if you do what he is saying things will change.
MY H after @4 years here? B/c I have finally started to live for me and change me with no expectation of what he will or wont do? Has decided to come along. He either has to ? Or he cant play with me anymore. I lived in fear of what if too , Cinco. F^Ck what if?
You are love , you are life, about time to start showing it, whether you think it will change things or not. For you.
Follow S&A advice and get the books. I would even love to follow your success. I know when you put your mind to this you are going to succeed. And by that I mean finally being content and Happy. Even if she decides she still doesn't want to play with you? You will be strong enough to know it is ok and you will still be happy.
Do this and maybe it will just maybe scratch the surface. Look how damn long I was digging? It took me to stop living in fear of myself and to finally love myself to scratch that damn surface. It may only be a damn paper cut ... but at least it is "open"
I really love ya honey...
I know you can do this. NOW is the time. Are you ready????? To have what you keep saying you want? Xoxoxo God bless, Ali
S&A, I don't have a lot of time to respond fully but I want to say that before she left today I talked to her concerning her trust issue with me (the not trusting that I won't leave again).
"W, I have been thinking about what you said about trusting me. If we have the passion and show each other the love each day as I am wanting in our marriage, I would have no reason to leave. Why would I ever leave if everything that I desire is right here with you? You need to know that I do love you and I want to be with you but not in an empty relationship."
She questioned, "How will I know if what I am doing good enough?"
I answered, "There are no guarantees about anything in life. Want me because it is something that you want not because it will keep me around."
I felt really confident saying this to her. We hugged and kissed before she had to leave.
S&A I think I will get NMMNG. You are right that my self image is sucking for air right now. My father was in my life (my folks divorced when I was 10 and mom never remarried) and we did do many things together and had a pretty good relationship. I was however raised more by my mom, 2 sisters, gram and aunt. No guys around regularly. I have denied that this could be part of my problem relating with my W. I think I do need to take a look at that book.
S&A I'm sorry I poo-pooed your advice for so long man. My W even said today, "H, you are just so touchy-feely like a woman. You are that way because you were raised by all women." Duh.... I'm a prime candidate for a "nice guy".
It sure does take a long time of looking inward before you really see the truth that lies within.
) WHOLE other thing.