Luckily the OM thing is not at the level you had to deal with. I can only imagine the horror of that situation. I can see why you are so pro-surviellence. That must have been very difficult to cope with.
I definately feel like I am in "limbo" right now. This is where I struggle as I am very impatient. A-type. I am considering this part of my growth.
I think she is more focused on having her pad. Right now I think she is coming off the A and turning her attention to other things. Time will tell. DBing is well under way. I pray months from now I will be able to look back at this time and appreciate it. Cause right now this sucks!
Jeff
***Getting up every day and learning to breathe in a new me. For me and my children***
Me: 43 W: 38 SD-15 S(s): 12,9,7 Separated-2/14/2009 My sitch
However, with all due respect for your experience PT, I think you do a disservice to the DB approach by adamantly opposing it here, which I think is misplaced, and wording it the patronizing way you do. "Cheaters always lie," and statements like that, project a "one size fits all" rigidity, & that bothers me. Of course You are entitled to your opinion and expressing it. But your tone/wording can seem smug, fyi.
25,
It's certainly not my intention to be smug or condescending. I have very little time to spend around my job and homelife (both of which are VERY demanding right now), and I try to get around the boards to help as many people as I can, as I have felt led to do this and feel I have a gift for it. I could call my style "plain" or "matter of fact." I don't mince words, and if I smell an affair, I will point it out, as I have studied them for years and see the financial, emotional and even physical pain they can cause to entire families.
I say "cheaters always lie" simply because they DO. I happen to think it's sad as hell, but that's been my observation and I've never seen an exception to it. Even FWAWs/AWAWs on these very boards tell the same thing about their deceit. It is also my experience and study that almost all affairs follow one of only a very few basic "scripts," and -- if applied -- you can use their predictive behavior to help the betrayed spouse be better prepared. I think that's a GOOD thing, and most find it comforting that "this is normal."
If you are "bothered" by either my bluntness or my generalities, then that's your issue, not mine. I do value your takes, as I know others do also, and I think we all have something of value to contribute. I try to contribute what I feel is MISSING from much of the conversation, so I tend to gravitate toward those areas that may appear anti-DB. (This is why I mostly post to people -- men especially -- who are classic "pleasers" or "Mr. Nice Guys", and not to those who are legitimately (pre-affair) controlling, as they need a different approach and there are dozens of others here who are capable of helping them). Most of my approach is, in fact, about 80% aligned with MWDs teachings.
Finally, you say you've never had an affair or been betrayed by one. I'd ask you to consider that you can't possibly know PERSONALLY how one is affected by one. They say that it's worse than rape, and Dr. Harley used to say that in his speeches and talks and one day he talks about how a woman came up to him and told him the horrible story of how she was gang-raped whens he was younger. She was later cheated upon by her husband, and she affirmed to Dr. Harley that yes -- it was worse. I think it is because one is perpetrated by a stranger, to whom we can find someplace in our mind and soul to say "this is evil; this is a bad person," whereas our spouses are the ones we love above all others, and who were supposed to forsake all others for us. It is the single most painful thing that has ever happened to me, and I still bear the wounds, as do all of us LBSs here. Please know that those wounds do influence our advice and our words, no doubt.
Last question to you all.. Is snooping/surviellence a lack of trust in God? Should I just lay it at his feet and get out of his way?
Jeff,
That is something I struggled with as well, and something you will have to take to our Lord in prayer and determine for yourself. My personal prayers were for God to show me the things (or allow me to see the things) I needed to see, and to give me the strength to deal with them once He showed me. I wanted wisdom, and discernment, and since we live in an earthly world and are not omniscient nor omnipresent, as He is, then that wisdom and discernment often comes thru other people He places in our lives, and in things He allows us to witness and experience.
I was continually nothing short of stunned and AMAZED how this worked out, so many times! When I found myself getting weak, and beginning to appease or "please" He would allow me to see or hear something that would steel my resolve. And when I got TOO cold and detached, He allowed me to see my wife's pain, and her vulnerability, and hold on to my love for her and to give grace.
I also prayed that I had a family to support, on just my income, and that I had neither the time nor the inclination to fritter away my day slothfully just snooping on my wife. That if there were things I needed to know in order to make wise decisions, then He would have to help me do it EFFICIENTLY, and SMARTLY. Hence the keylogger, GPS, and voice-activated recorder. I really spent no more than one or or so a day at this -- often far less.
Jesus taught us to be wise, and to know when others are trying to deceive us and that there's a time to speak up and a time to hold something in your heart. He was (and is!) forgiving, but He was also shrewd. I believe God left us, with His Holy Spirit, both a prayer channel and a wonderful brain. I try to use them both, always asking Him to correct me when I'm erring.
I don't believe God ever told us to trust our enemies. I think he merely told us to LOVE them, and to FORGIVE them, unconditionally, which I try to do. I guess where I differ with some is that I believe that -- while in the wayward state (actively involved in an affair) -- our spouses, and their OM/OW, are in fact an enemy of our marriage.
So I strove to love the woman, but oppose their plan with all my being. I tried to make a distinction between the sin and the sinner.
I hope that helps. It's a phenomenal, and tough, question.
Choc, you know I love you, but that rape v infidelity comparison is extremely bad form. It's like saying being blind is worse than being deaf. For some people, perhaps. For others, not. Not your job to quantify, even to make a point.
Using any such comparison in an attempt to put a comparative 'value' on the pain of different experiences runs a high risk of appearing to devalue the pain defined as 'lesser', especially when using such an inflammatory issue as rape.
I'd think twice before using it. JMHO.
BTW, I could not be more thrilled about where your marriage is going.
Sorry for the hijack, Vdad. About the surveillance ... if you have been an A-type, 'have-to-know-NOW' kinda guy, easing off here for the time being might indeed be a valuable turnaround and growth opportunity for you, as you said. The software's installed, you can always use it anytime, right?
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
I was merely reporting what Harley believed (he's studied FAR more of these than I have, and has those letters after his name, too!), and that -- based on my OWN experience -- I agreed with it. For me.
Others say it feels like their spouse took a chainsaw to their chest, ripped their heart out, and threw it on the floor and stomped on it. Is that any better form?
It is what it is. I detest calling affairs "extramarital relationships." Or OM/OW "extramarital partners." All that stuff. Many LBSs won't even use the "A-word" with their cheating spouse. Infidelity, Adultery and Affairs should all be called what they are, and dealt with. Sugar-coating them doesn't help -- in my opinion.
Others say it feels like their spouse took a chainsaw to their chest, ripped their heart out, and threw it on the floor and stomped on it. Is that any better form? Puppy
Yes, it's *much* better form. An hyperbolic physical metaphor to describe the pain of infidelity, as opposed to comparing something you've experienced (infidelity) to something you hopefully haven't (rape).
I'm not knocking the experience of *actual* rape victims who say that FOR THEM the infidelity was worse. But it doesn't mean that everyone who has experienced both would agree. And I just don't think it's a place anyone who *hasn't* experienced both should go. But then, being more of a Schnarchian, I think a *lot* of what Harley advocates is rank idiocy, so there you go.
That said, I agree with you about the sugarcoating and doormattage often advocated 'round these parts. "What works" doesn't trump "At what cost?" in my world.
Cheers.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
I actually saw the exact video of the gentleman giving that presentation and it wasn't Dr. Harley, it was the guy who wrote His needs, Her needs. It turned me completetly off. His basic premise is that he can support anyone who wants to leave a marriage due to infidelity. He thinks its such a grevious act (and it is) that he couldn't imagine anyone wanting to stay. BUT he says if you want to work through it, he can show you how to do that too. His basic point was to KNOW it can happen to anyone, and to GUARD against it. If you think your marriage is too strong for it to show up-that's when it happens.
He was forthright and blunt but I was somewhat discouraged with his "if you want to repair it, Okay I can show you how" attitude.
I don't have his credentials but I would nor seek him as a counselor after hearing that. He was the one who told the rape story and he definately was generalizing to make his point. I have felt the pain of an A as has my wife. But I find it a strecth to believe that a gang rapre experience couldn't be as or more traumatic than an A.
Just my thoughts.. AND thanks for the feedback everyone...
Jeff
***Getting up every day and learning to breathe in a new me. For me and my children***
Me: 43 W: 38 SD-15 S(s): 12,9,7 Separated-2/14/2009 My sitch
