I just got my H to agree to read it with me. My idea is to have each of us read a chapter and mark the paragraphs that say more to us, then discuss it. He was not enthusiastic, but he never is when I try to touch the R topic. But I did manage to tell him on a nice, non-threatening way that I was afraid that if we never touch the subject or establish decent communication we'll end up in more of the same. He was very tired though and that may account for his lack of enthusiasm on the topic (we had a party at home with 4 other couples and their assorted children from 4 pm to nearly 9:30. I think we had 20 people in all).
I too am exhausted, but do not seem to be able to sleep.
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
Still not sleeping (I should). Well, you all will need some adjustment after he moves back. But look at the bright side: he wants to move back. Things will come...
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
Tal, Is there something in the water supply here lately?
Quote: (H) informed me that he needs to go back and finish packing as he is "moving back on Thursday". have been hoping and fretting about this for so long that it now seems unreal.
My H also announced that he was ready to come home now....and like you, I'm happy and yet hesitant at the same time, mainly because as your husband expressed I wonder if my H is REALLY
Quote: ready to live with people again--even the people that he loves
Do you feel you've laid all the necessary 'gound rules' for this re-cohabitation? I feel like I haven't, that we haven't REALLY cleared the air about alot of important things.
Are you worried about old demons raising thier ugly heads and causing problems? Do you feel strong enough in your current relationship with your H to broach any subject with him now?
I feel as if there's so much still UNSAID between H and I that I feel almost stiffled to bring some of it up...but I know that for my own peace of mind, I'll need to get some things on the table. NOT about OW necessarily, but about the things surrounding the As and the mindset that allowed them to happen etc...guess I need some reassurances that HE knows he will never make these same bad decisions again. T2
Quote: Is there something in the water supply here lately?
Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Quote: Do you feel you've laid all the necessary 'gound rules' for this re-cohabitation? I feel like I haven't, that we haven't REALLY cleared the air about alot of important things.
Much more so than I felt a month or two ago.
Quote: Are you worried about old demons raising thier ugly heads and causing problems? Do you feel strong enough in your current relationship with your H to broach any subject with him now?
I feel as if there's so much still UNSAID between H and I that I feel almost stiffled to bring some of it up...but I know that for my own peace of mind, I'll need to get some things on the table. NOT about OW necessarily, but about the things surrounding the As and the mindset that allowed them to happen etc...guess I need some reassurances that HE knows he will never make these same bad decisions again.
Yes, I'm very worried that we will slip into old patterns, especially when it comes to how we deal ( or rather don't deal with conflict.
I feel a lot of fear to bring subjects up that I want to talk about, but he's much less defensive and open now.
Yesterday, we spent several hours talking abouut the very thing you are concerned about--the circumstances that led up to the A to be able to happen again in the first place.
Basically what I understand now is that Wolfie had basically vowed at a very young age to NOT have a family and in no way intended to become a husband or father. That wasn't what happened in his life, so by the time he and I ). His plans after retiring from the military involved retraining in a career that he knew he could find a job nearly anywhere. He had planned to buy a sailboat and live a very solitary, transient lifestyle--working here or there for awhile, then moving on.
He didn't expect or intend to fall in love with a single mother who is a bit of a homebody & security freak, but he did and stayed that way.
It sound like he has been conflicted all of these years, because the need for solitude, adventure, travel, change, etc. has always been there. It's hard for me to hear, but he describes being a very self-centered person who was never truly committed to anyone or anything, including me or our family.
At this point, his work in counseling has been to--as he puts it--destroy that part of his personality that is prone to be extremely self-centered and not committed to anything. Also, they are working at ways for him to get some of the alone-time that he needs in a way that is not destructive.
One thing that this separation has done for him is to force a choice, and he has chosen to do whatever it takes to have what his heart wants...me and his family.
He was honest about the pre-conditions for him having an A are still there. I would love to hear otherwise, but I'm glad he's being honest with me.
All in all--I don't think I'd feel safe enough to recommit to this relationship if it weren't for him doing the work he's doing in individual and couple's counseling. I can accept that we are a work-in-progress, knowing that things can only get better because of the work we are both doing.
Your H may have had less garbage to sort through to get to the bottom line of wanting your M. Like a lot of guys, he may have had a real wake-up call and has made the necessary changes so that you can quit worrying so much.
I sure hope that reading the book together will help open some of those lines of communication that you want. It's a great start! Let him know that your motivation is to help your R heal, not just "recover".
Quote: The boys talked about how they have seen H and I spending time together & knew we were going to counseling, but they also felt hurt and neglected because we've been very focused on each other and they felt that we needed to begin healing and rebuilding as a family.
This really got me crying. I wonder if this will ever happen for us... our family is so broken. I feel like I have the boys and I wrapped together by a thread... very fragile.
T2, What do you mean not coddling H while they are with OW? I don't feel I can issue an ultimatum... I feel like he will go with her, and I DO feel it will fall apart eventually. He is out of the house, and I don't call him, etc. I certainly don't make things good for him, but I am kind and loving to him and always look good when I see him. But he knows I am here and I assume he thinks I am waiting on him, but he continues to have his A, which repulses me.
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I'm so sorry to hear about this with your boys. I think that no matter what, our boys and I would have went on as a family.
One thing that was very touching to my heart was that H talked about how grateful he was that S19 had taken on so much--trying to step up to the plate to deal with H's absence. He also talked about having wanted my boys to turn to him as a father, but he often felt like an outsider & not really needed. They actually apologized to him, saying that they had had to grow up very independent, as children of a single mom, and that they never meant to make him feel excluded.
I guess what I am struggling with right now is guilt and sadness. I know it is H's choice to make, but I feel sad that H has been conflicted all of this time. Being a family and a partner comes naturally to me, and I can't imagine what he has gone through to be so conflicted. Considering what I know now, I can see how much H loved me and loved the kids to have stayed with us all of these years, but he must have been miserable!
Again, I know it his choice, but for him to feel that he has to kill off a whole part of his personality in order to stay with us makes me sad. I let him know that the door is open with no guilt and no recriminations, but he says leaving isn't an option because he'd be leaving to big a part of his spirit behind.
I've also been feeling some anger about all of this. I am angry with his family for how he was affected. I'm angry about the Viet Nam war and how it affected so many of our men. I suppose H could have been one of those guys who never was able to come home after the war so it could have been worse. There were those who were never able to adjust to any kind of normal life afterward. I know of guys who felt deadened by anything but high-adreneline stuff after the war, and some of them became mercinaries because that was the only lifestyle that allowed them to still feel alive.
H says that he was able to put Viet Nam away in a little box in the back of his mind, and felt that he had to because of the way the guys were treated when they came back home. I think it has only been very recently that it has become socially acceptable to talk about being a Viet Nam vet, and only because of the patriotism that the country has experienced in the past 2 years.
Tal, how could I have missed the fact that Wolfie was in a war...let alone Viet Nam!!
The cards really HAVE been stacked against him, haven't they? I totally agree with you that he must REALLY love you and his family to be making this very conscious choice to make it work.
I'm not all that comfortable with the notion of "killing off" part of one's personality...are these Wolfie's words or the C's?
It might be something more like gaining emotional insight into where this "part" comes from..what triggers the urges to "get away" or "be alone" and to moderate them...find positive outlets (like a retreat? Camping trip?) for it.
Shiny
Tal...I find it very interesting that in responding to T2 you mentioned feeling much better than a month ago about having resolved certain things before the move back....
Isn't it rather awesome how the Universe has a timing of it's own? A month ago you guys were fighting because Wolfie was dragging his feet! Maybe you needed this extra month TO get some of the issues out there, and the healing really started!!!
Shiney..he's not just a VN vet, but a Persian Gulf vet too!
They were Wolfie's words, to kill off those parts of his personality. I think he also used the term "surgically remove" problem area of his make-up as well. Heck if I know if he's getting that from the therapist, but she does seem to be making a lot of progress with him all the way around.
I know what you mean about not being comfortable with the term--in fact that is what led to me feeling guilty.
As for the extra month, yes I agree. Despite the focus of the DB philosophy, I feel it's him that has, by far, done the most growing and changing. The difference is that he's willing to communicate now in a non-defensive way. Before that, most uncomfortable subjects were pretty much taboo. Now, I can ask pretty much what I want to and he'll answer me to the best of his ability. He also isn't so worried all the time about "hurting me" with honesty. There's nothing he can tell me that I haven't FELT and KNOWN for years, but now we can talk about things. THAT'S the difference!
He told the boys that 6 months ago, he thought he was fine and that everyone else around him was wrong. Now he says that as hard as is it for him to admit that he's been a self-centered selfish sob, that he's come to the conclusion that he's one f**ked-up individual that needs to work on himself.
I just wish he could get humble without beating himself up! Yeah, he can be self-centered, but like I told his sister, he can also be very kind, sensitive, and sweet.
I agree with you though about having the cards stacked against him. Maybe someday, he'll be a happier man and instead of feeling guilty, I can know that--because of me--he did the work he had to do to get healthier.
Also...I forgot to mention that I think PTSD has been a huge factor in our relationship and the problems we've had.
The symptoms of it are very different for both of us, but it is PTSD regardless.
I think the "typical" symptoms are more prevelant for me: recurrant flashbacks and nightmares, startle response, hypervigilance, things along those lines.
Part of the hypervigillance, for me, has been for me to be overly sensitive to the emotions of others around me and to do a lot of "mind reading" as well. My C says they are weak-boundary issues that have been part of my survival tactics--always taking the safety-temperature around me.
With Wolfie, primary PTSD stuff has been extremely rigid boundaries. Emotional numbness, feelings of being isolated, dissociated and on the outside, difficulty bonding, irritability, stewing in anger, extreme need for solitude.
One thing that we do have in common is the need to "check-out" because of feeling overwhelmed by stress.
Honestly, I think that part of what bonded us in the first place was a recognition of the wounding we had both experienced. There was definately a sense of "this person will understand and respect that I have very tender spots".
Wolfie says that part of the work he is doing with his C is in the area of boundaries--tearing down some of the wall he's built around himself and his emotions, feeling connected, feeling bonded.
It just now occurred to me that we've had conversations over the years that had the following theme:
Me: I feel afraid because I don't feel like you are bonded/not-invested/detached. Him: That's just how I am. What are you worried about, I'm still here aren't I? Me: You are often here pysically, but there is very little intimacy and that makes me feel unsafe. Him: Intamacy and vulnerability make ME feel unsafe. Besides, I don't understand you being upset--I've seen REAL suffering and this doesn't qualify as a big deal. Me: I give up.
See what I mean, Shiny? PTSD has been a huge factor all along.
INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS AND FLASHBACKS Replaying military experiences in their minds, searching for alternative outcomes. Flashbacks triggered by everyday experiences: helicopters, smells, green tree lines, popcorn popping, rainy days.
ISOLATION He has few friends. Isolates family emotionally and sometimes geographically. Fantasizes about being a hermit, moving away from his problems. Believes no one can understand and no one would listen if he tried to talk about his experiences. Isolates himself from his partner, family and others with a "leave me alone" attitude. He needs no one.
EMOTIONAL NUMBING Cold, aloof, uncaring, detached. Constant fear of losing control -- "I may never stop crying".
DEPRESSION Sense of helplessness, worthlessness and dejection. Lacks self-esteem and suffers from great insecurity. Feels undeserving of good feelings. Seems unable to handle it when things are gong well.
ANGER Quiet, masked rage which is frightening to the veteran and to those around them. Unable to handle or identify frustrations. Unexplainable, inappropriate anger.
SUBSTANCE ABUSE Used primarily to numb the painful memories of past experiences. Heavy use of alcohol, nicotine, caffeine and other drugs.
GUILT/SUICIDAL THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS Self-destructive behavior. Hopeless physical fights, single car accidents, compulsive blood donors. Self-inflicted injuries to feel pain -- many accidents with power tools. High suicide rate. As soon as things are well off, doing something to lose it all, or walking away from it. Survivor's Guilt when others have died around them.
ANXIETY OR NERVOUSNESS Uncomfortable when people walk close behind them or sit behind them. Conditioned suspicion, he trusts no one. Startled responses.
EMOTIONAL CONSTRICTION Unresponsive to self, therefore unresponsive to others. Unable to express or share feelings, can not talk about personal emotions. Unable to achieve intimacy with family, partner or friends.
DENIAL Unable to admit that he has any of the above symptoms or that he may have PTSD. May deny that his military experience could have anything to do with his attitude. In extreme cases, will deny that he was even in the military. Unwilling to seek help. Trusts no one.
My idea is to have each of us read a chapter and mark the paragraphs that say more to us, then discuss it. 
He was not enthusiastic, but he never is when I try to touch the R topic. But I did manage to tell him on a nice, non-threatening way that I was afraid that if we never touch the subject or establish decent communication we'll end up in more of the same. He was very tired though and that may account for his lack of enthusiasm on the topic (we had a party at home with 4 other couples and their assorted children from 4 pm to nearly 9:30. I think we had 20 people in all).
