Can Two Alphas Live Together?

[eskb]

Tal,

Excellent letter. Just wanted to bounce something off you, and it's a minor thing. The word "trust", as you're using it, has several meanings, and I'm concerned that the distinction between them is being a little blurred. One way is, trusting that you are committed to me and to me alone (fidelity). It's the most fundamental form of trust in the R. The second way you're using it is, trusting that you will do what you have said that you would do (dependability).

These two forms of trust are related (strongly), but they're not exactly the same, are they? I'm not sure that you should lump them together in the letter. Yes, his infidelity was a "gross betrayal" of your trust. But you have issues with his dependability in general, no? And that's really the issue here, not so much questions about his fidelity. So maybe it would be good to distinguish between them in the letter. He maybe doesn't realize that his dependability would help you not just on that level, but also with lingering questions about his fidelity.

Again, it's just a nitpicking little quibble (and let me know if you think I'm way off base). You certainly aren't hammering him about the A. Overall, I think it's a strong, well-written, fair letter. It describes the problem, doesn't accuse unfairly, identifies a specific solution in a respectful way, and identifies the benefit (increasing your trust in him) of solving the problem, thus providing motivation. It'll be interesting to hear how he responds.

Specifically, here are some possible suggestions: change

You stated to me in your letter that you felt you had committed a gross betrayal of my trust, and that it was important to you to regain my trust. Along those lines, I want to point out something that I have often perceived as a pattern that has led to distrust on my part.

to something like,

You stated to me in your letter that you felt that it was important to you to regain my trust. I need to be able to trust both in your faithfulness and in your dependability - saying what you mean, and meaning what you say. Along those lines, I want to point out something that I have often perceived as a pattern that has led to my not being able to trust in your dependability.

Then, instead of,

I am not going to minimize that trust is a big issue between us right now. There has been a major breach of my trust and broken agreements and promises. In order to do the work we need to do, credibility and trust is important.

perhaps:

As you know, trust is a big issue for me right now. There has been a major breach of my trust and also other broken agreements and promises. In order to do the work we need to do, credibility and trust is important. Your being dependable will help me to be able to trust both in your specific promises and also, more generally, in your faithfulness.

Just some ideas...
Brian

[shinybear]

Okay, here's a woman's perspective, Tal.

First let me say that I KNOW how you feel about promises and the like not coming to pass.

This is why I've suspected CJ of being "Passive Aggressive". Seems to me that often he WOULD agree to stuff just to shut me up in the moment, or even to please others (sure I'll copy your 8mm films onto VHS MIL!...two years later....Sure I'll print out digital photos!....three years later....Sure I'll do June's monthly expenses! Two months later the stack of receipts is still there....Hell, Tal he told me a week a go that he would "cut back significantly on his school work and get that done "tomorrow"...Nope.

Now I know this is "little stuff", but it's a similar pattern and it drives me crazy! I'd rather not have him promise to do anything at all than go back on it!

So...I HEAR you!

That said...there probably are some ways you can soften your letter so as to make him more receptive to your POV.

How about starting with some of the GOOD stuff that's been going on? How glad you are for the progress so far (and it HAS been substantial!)

Then perhaps tone down the expectation that this might "cause a big fight"...maybe just say that part of your general mistrust, which MUST be dealt with relates to what you perceive as this tendency of his to not follow through on promises.

Now how about giving him a chance here and asking if he recalled your discussion about when he'd move back in? His head might have been muddled and he might not recall it as clearly as you.

Let him know that YOU took it as an understanding that he WOULD be back in when S starts school...ask how he interpreted that negotiation.

Explain that perhaps what feels like something "promised" to you, is not that concrete to him, and how could you come closer so that each of your needs are met?

The basic message is the same, just how it's coached. Leave him some space to regain dignity here (even if he IS coming up short too often ). Try to write this so that it OPENS communication while expressing how you feel.
Quoting Tal:

now I hear you saying things that lead me to believe you are dragging your feet, being vague, and not even recognizing that we did, in fact come to an agreement




See, this I think is almost guaranteed to make him feel accused and lousy. ...So again, ask him what HE thought your "negotiations" meant....


Just some thoughts.

Shiny

[phd1126]

Hi Tal,
Glad to see you are ok!!! Now regarding your venting!

His not honoring our agreement is a big deal to me, because it really causes me to distrust his word, reminds me that after a major betrayal (having an A) he's got some credibility issues with me, and feels like I'm being discounted, taken for granted, and disrespected.

I think saying what you said right here is how you need to explain it to your H, perhaps in the company of MC so that you have a mediator to help keep the scales balanced. Focus on how you feel..."when this happens, I feel..." not "when YOU do this, you make me feel..." I think not going into this yesterday when you were heated already was a good choice and shows growth! You may also want to preface the conversation by saying, "I need to bring this up for my own well-being, I'm not attacking you and my intention is not for you to become defensive, but I'm afraid that you might. I need for you to understand some things that I am feeling..."

Hope that helps!! Don't push too hard--maybe ask him a bit more as to why mid-september is the new time frame to him-perhaps there is a legitimate reason for this or combination of reasons (some legit and others not)...

hang in there-you're doing great and showing great strength!!! You can do this, you're in the home stretch--well at least rounding 2nd!

Take Care,

[talitsa]

OK, after hearing Poe's suggestion to give the benefit of the doubt (maybe I heard agreement and H did not) I decided to approach it in that light. Had lunch today with H. I told him that I was confused because I thought we'd had a detailed discussion re household situation and he had stated that he would make the move before youngest son went back to school. I said I thought we'd both felt that we had met half-way and had made an agreement.

He said yes, he'd thought we had too, but for some reason he'd thought that youngest son didn't go back to high school until the end of September like when the College Quarter starts.

Ok---we've put four kids through high school, and EVERY year the school year starts within a day or two after Labor Day. Furthermore, as H was giving me his "explanation" he was stuttering and avoiding my eyes. When he did look me in the eye, I'm sorry to say, I KNEW he was being untruthful and he KNEW that I knew that he was being untruthful. There was an ackward silence for quite a few minutes, then he changed the subject.

I'm so discouraged and saddened. After all of the talk about how we need to clearly communicate and give each other the opportunity to know what we are asking for...

I rarely ask for much from my H. I have been "trained" to expect that, even if I am being VERY reasonable in what I request:
1. H will go into "rebellious" teenager mode...and behave as though I am out of line to request anything.
2. Negotiate a compromise or agreement with me, then not follow through or half-a$$ it.
3. Occassionally--he will say my request is reasonable, make an agreement and follow through.

I understand what Brian is saying about making the distinctions about trust. If I agree to something important with my H, I take the commitment seriously and follow through. If for some reason I can't follow through, I discuss it with him. To me that is having integrity and commitment.

If I voilated committments to my H in areas like paying the bills or something else that he depended on me to do, how could he trust me to keep my committments on something like fidelity?

I don't feel like I can discuss this topic any further right now with H. What would I do, tell him that I believe he's being untruthful as well as breaking agreements?

I guess the only constructive thing I really can do is wait for the next time he makes an agreement with me and follows through, I can make a big deal out of letting him know how important that is and show appeciation.

Other than that, I don't know what else to do but look at this behaviour in the context of the Serinity Prayer.

[talitsa]

Thanks Pam. I sure appreciate everyone's feedback.

I guess if I were to really dig deep about how his behaviour makes me feel, it is more than a trust problem in general. I feel like H is playing a passive-agressive control game with me. I have felt like that all along through this separation.

"Accept the things you cannot change", right? It would be unreasonable for me to expect all of our old patterns to be erased, all weapons melted down into scrap. I can hope that this is an area that will improve over time.

[shinybear]

HI Tal,

That does sound like a pretty lame excuse...and I KNOW you can read his body language.

Sooooo....I DO have some insights here...perhaps for some reason he is not able to share, maybe HE can't even access it or verbalize it...H is a little scared of the big move.

So he wants more time than agreed upon. Would you agree so far?

Question is, why didn't he come to you, in the spirit of your better communication and tell you this?

I can think of a few reasons:

1) he's a procrastinator and just hoped you wouldn't "notice" and it would all just fall into place

2) he was afraid of how you would react...

my money is on #2... or perhaps a combination of both.

Here's a strange example from I think early March of this year. I found out about OW AGAIN...he ended contact (for REAL)...but then I got on his e-mail (not trusting it was over...he gave me the password).

Well, a couple of suspicious messages were in his inbox...now Tal, he KNEW these were women from his chat-room days. Not OW, just women he wrote to, flirted with I'm sure. Turns out he helped one to avoid suicide!

But what did he say when I asked about those messages? He LIED...to my FACE...AGAIN!!! He almost pushed me out of the chair to delete them, saying it was junk mail...which it was NOT.

After things settled down, I asked him WHY in the world didn't he just say what they were instead of LYING again???

He said he didn't know, that it just came out to protect himself, that he thought that I might freak out and end it for good!!!

So....Yes, weirdness and backsteps ARE part of this journey.

Tell me Tal...how WOULD you have responded if H said he felt he needed a few more weeks???

Shiny

[phd1126]

I hear you Tal!
I think they all play the passive agressive game. I'm beginning to see that with my H in our sitch--all depending on how nice a conversation goes depends on his push for the D. If we have nice meetings/conversations the D word never comes up--if I push the bill on a topic and he gets annoyed, frustrated--then it's the "once this is all over and we're divorced" story...I hate games!
Hang in there hon-it will get better!!! Shiny has some good feedback for you!!! I am taking this all into the back of my mind for when I get to this step on my journey, which I hope will be a step.

[sage]

Ok---we've put four kids through high school, and EVERY year the school year starts within a day or two after Labor Day. Furthermore, as H was giving me his "explanation" he was stuttering and avoiding my eyes. When he did look me in the eye, I'm sorry to say, I KNEW he was being untruthful and he KNEW that I knew that he was being untruthful. There was an ackward silence for quite a few minutes, then he changed the subject.

I'm so discouraged and saddened. After all of the talk about how we need to clearly communicate and give each other the opportunity to know what we are asking for...

What do you think h is afraid to say?

Is there a gentle way to let him know that you're ok with hearing anything he can express (assuming that you are) -- including fear or ambivalence or ???? about moving home?

I don't think you have to wait until "next time". I think there would be a way to use this as a springboard...for him to open up to you about "scary" stuff and for you to hear it....

Sage

[poepad]

Tally

Check out the "Mutual Consent/Agreement" concept from William Harley.

[talitsa]

Well, after thinking about it and calming down....

I think it's:

1) he's a procrastinator and just hoped you wouldn't "notice" and it would all just fall into place

2) he was afraid of how you would react...

3) he'd love to continue on with living apart, but spending most of his free time with me for as long as he can until I won't put up with it any more

Anyway, it's at least a relief to know that I'm not the only one who does such weird passive agressive stuff. And that God I can come here and talk it out instead of stewing in it until I feel like I could just strangle the dude!

I'll try to bring up the subject in a gentle way this weekend to see if there are any other fears he has about coming home that he hasn't told me about.

Anyway....