WOW! Thanks! I've never been a big sister.... big pain in the butt for sure, but not sister
I know exactly what you mean about being scattered far away. So many psychological clinics have group therapy for other conditions/situations, you'd think someone would offer a marriage counseling roundtable for sex problems. I never thought of calling all the marriage or sex counselors to see if any offer such a thing. The moderator would have to be really watchful to be sure people didn't form attachments and have affairs. Or worse, if it was, say, all women, that us HD ladies wouldn't strangle the LD whiners LOL!! I suppose LD partners would recommend Sexaholics Anonymous LOL.
People tend to gravitate toward like-minded confidants of the same sex when they talk about problems. Not that people of opposing views might try to convert us, but they just wouldn't get it. I can just imagine talking about my problems w/LD women. A former acquaintance couldn't understand why I D'd my ex. She saw him as a nice guy who was home every nite, didn't drink & run around, etc. Her sister's H smacked her around. I should be happy w/no sex because he doesn't beat me? What kind of reasoning is that? its not a trade-off.
On Diane's thread I mentioned not understanding LD women, but wishing they didn't see the rest of us as being abnormal or sluts. Its easy to say they probably never had a lover who satisfied them, as in no orgasms, but that's a myth. Its hard to separate the psychological from any physical problem - hormone imbalance, genetics, or maybe someday they'll find a "Chemical imbalance in the brain" thing that causes LD. A tumor on the pituitary can. Too complex to solve w/out help.
Group therapy should be solution oriented rather than just talking about how they "live with it". I'm a "fixer" by nature. It took years to learn to pick my battles so to speak. Way too many brick impressions in my forehead from trying to fix the unfixable. Besides avoiding brick walls, I stick to things that are worth fixing. Amazing how many people would rather complain about something than find solutions and implement them. Or get someone else to take on their problem.
However, we have no face-to-face group to work with, so we get to rant to each other anonymously. Much of the time when someone complains about someone else its a "Mommy, make her stop it" kind of thing. Wanting someone to intervene on their behalf. That's taken away on this forum making our efforts a little more mature, "pure" so to speak. Diane knows we can't go give her H a head slap, that's not what she wants. Me either. Nor you. Besides a place to cry out our hurts, we want reassurance, validation of our feelings and that we're OK people, not the demanding abberants our spouses may want us to think we are. We share strategies and solutions.
Having accomplished that, we're left with counseling for ourselves if our spouse won't go, or, best case, for both of us, even if its separately. The scary part is that counseling may result in having to change or a recommendation to split. No one wants to be told that if they can't meet a spouse halfway they should cut him/her loose. No one wants to be the heavy, get the blame. Carry the guilt.
I got the blame from pretty much everyone we knew but that was because Ex went around crying to everyone (Mr.Tattletale. "Mommy make her be nice to me.") and I never told anyone our problems. I felt it would attack his dignity and open him to ridicule. So he's always been "Poor baby." Went to a counselor of his choice-once-who told him he had a lot of work to do if he wanted to stay married to me. He thought I'd get scolded and "see the light". I have no regrets and am eternally glad I haven't been married to him all these years.
Not this time, tho. This one's worth fighting for & that makes all the difference. I've learned new strategies, changed my approach, been a cheerleader for any new efforts, changes. Endured the rants and tantrums. Gotten him to trust that I'm not attacking him, I'm not going to abandon him. Never caved in. Hung in there long enough that he seems to enjoy himself again and wants to ML. It has been a very long, tough, scary year. Especially the parts about his health. I may never get him to talk about how he feels about sex, what he enjoys, anything more than a "Yeah" if I ask if he had a good time, but we're in a way better place than even three or four months ago. Annnnnnd, I know I have to keep my changes going, not just slide and expect the good stuff to continue without any more effort.
One small thought: I think the beginning of the thaw was when I got him to shower together, telling him we didn't have to have sex, just be in the warm water together and wash each other's backs. We did that twice. After that he started sleeping nude again, spooning. Not avoiding touching. Still lots of bumpy patches after that, but it was a start. I think he realized he missed the closeness. Having it without being pressured to perform allowed him to relax and enjoy it, maybe begin to be comfortable again with being close.
Whatever you do this new year, I hope it goes well. I think about you often, "little bro" - one of my sons owns about 14 guitars and has built two or three from scratch. J
Last edited by Jayce; 01/07/0902:45 AM.
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
Jayce, you know that I'm the baby of my family. I have 2 big sisters. They both live out of state so I don't get to see them a lot... but now a 3rd big cyber-sister.
Originally Posted By: Jayce
No one wants to be told that if they can't meet a spouse halfway they should cut him/her loose. No one wants to be the heavy, get the blame. Carry the guilt.
This is an important point and describes where I am with W again. I had asked her a few years ago why she had lost interest in sex and didn't want it(me?) anymore. Her answer was, "I don't know". I always wondered if she didn't want to tell me because it might mean my leaving her though.
It's as hard on the LD's as the HD's. The HD thinks: how could you LD's lose interest and let go of something that is so wonderful and connects couples in a special way? While the LD is thinking: why must you HD's hang onto something that naturally diminishes with age and time spent in a relationship.
It's just two different point of views, neither is right nor wrong. DQ had a discussion long ago about how the real solution is to match up HD/HD and LD/LD. There is so much more to relationships though than just sex drives, so even that is not an end solution. Besides drives can change too....
Originally Posted By: Jayce
On Diane's thread I mentioned not understanding LD women, but wishing they didn't see the rest of us as being abnormal or sluts. Its easy to say they probably never had a lover who satisfied them, as in no orgasms, but that's a myth.
My LD W does have a lover that satisfies her (uh, that would be me by the way). It makes no difference in her desire to feel that way again though. She can have a wonderful experience, like we did a few months ago, then go for a long period without even thinking about sex again. The difference for an HD is that when we have great sex our attitude is "let's do that again!"
I'm glad that you at least are having success Jayce. I thought I was on my way with her but there have been so many disappointments for me. The only difference as I've said is that we are nicer to each other now. It's not enough, what I really want is nice and sexy.
Older sisters, hmmmmm Did you get babied a lot or just have two extra moms watching to see you didn't get into trouble?
I know you said you're a slow reader, but if you still have Mars/Venus, finish reading it. Also the Sex on the Brain book. THat one has some stuff near the beginning about which lobes of the brain govern what and how brain chemicals work, like dopamine for one. It even suggests how to adjust diet or which supplements might help a particular problem. It is a little confusing and I found it easier to kinda skim over that part to get to what he has to say about differences in male/female brains. Mars/Venus touches on those differences as did Getting Through to the Man You Love. Even if you eventually get D'd, it'll help you interact w/whatever new women you meet.
You mentioned a number of miscarriages and joined the clipped N*** Club only recently. Any miscarriage is an emotional event, more so for the mother. Also they can be physically painful and frightening. I can see how all that would make sex less appealing considering the risk of another bad time. Even with the pill and all the other ways to prevent pregnancy. The pill can cause mood swings in some women. I knew one in particular who became a real crab on the things & gave them up in favor of something else. (We were all SO happy)
As a manager in a predominantly male environment, I used to mark my desk calendar & check it every morning to remind me not to go off the deep end over events because on other days stuff didn't bother me anywhere near as much. When I took anatomy & physiology we covered the hormone cycle and a few of us were like, Holy S***!! No wonder we feel like crap for a few days! For one thing even a little fluid retention causes pressure on the brain. You can imagine our inside jokes after that.
Your W may really not know why she has LD. The problem is she doesn't want to find out why & fix it. Most of the time physical stuff can be relieved. Antidepressants are tricky, tho. Most interfere w/libido or ability to orgasm. From what I've read, Wellbutrin doesn't wreck libido but helps it. Too bad you can't speak to her Dr. Or the 2 of you can't go together. I'm sure she sees everything you do as trying to get to more sex rather than a genuine effort to help her feel better in general.
I remember one thing I read about affairs: they're never about the sex. Sometimes its a guy who needs to validate himself as being a stud, sometimes its a woman who responds to a guy who actually talks (!!) to her. Sometimes its for revenge. No one ever seems to look at that, they always get hung up on the betrayal of the sex part. I heard a woman whose H was accusing her of having an affair say (dripping with sarcasm) "What makes you think I need to do something like that?" He was such a jerk, I'm sure he missed the message.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, how's the job hunt going? I'm grateful my H is with a food processing co. People need to eat.
Jayce
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
W is the baby too, with 2 older brothers. We joked early in our courtship that we should just run from each other once we found out we were both babies.
Yeah my older sisters well they babied me and watched that I didn't get into trouble. They gave me the condom use lecture too , so I was using those things before it was even cool (70's). That BTW was W and my preferred method of birth control once she quit the pill (after D16's birth she decided not to go back on it).
The vas is something we had talked about for about 8 years prior. It was my idea because we were both age 40 and knew we should no longer try to have any more children for her health reasons. The final straw was W's high blood pressure, plus I was really tired of using condoms.
I know all of the miscarriages didn't help things. You do feel the loss very much but I can't imagine the pain of losing an infant or a full grown child as you did Jayce. W's brother died at age 55 from a stroke but it took him over a year before his death because he had a series of diabetic strokes. So I saw what W's mom went through, very tragic.
You may have read the post were I talked about how we view our only daughter as a miracle. W & I have shared this many times with each other.
You be glad to know I'm almost finished reading M/V. I wish I had read this one when it first came out, I was young and knew everything then. This is one relationship book I think every person should read. There were so many revelations for me in there.
You hit that nail on the head about it not her being LD as much as her unwillingness to do anything about it. SSM discusses how it is hard to not see yourself as normal, no matter where you happen to be on the libido scale. I view myself as normal, why would I want to let go of something that I get so much pleasure out of?
On affairs just put me in the validation camp. After going for so long without sex I was starting to question my own desirability (we had gone for about 3 years with annual or semi-annual ML). It was a real boost to my self esteem to know that I was still wanted by someone, even if I had to lower myself by an act of betrayal to find out. When you look at it, it is not reasonable, it is more of a compulsion. It is an act of weakness at your lowest point. The trouble is you end up falling in love with the OW. I don't recommend this path to anyone.
The job hunt is still going... and going... and going... and going. W's had a couple of interviews now and may even get an offer soon on one of them.
Just coming out of "lurk" mode to say howdy and to let you know that I'm still pullin' for ya in your sitch.
Hang tough on the job search...be diligent, but don't overdo like I did during my last stretch of unemployment. I spent so much time in search mode and no time on *me* and I think it sucked the life out of me.
Perhaps your wife will get an offer, and that might be one of the best things that could happen for her self-esteem and for both of you, long-haul. Perhaps God intended this to nudge her out of her rut and into some personal growth. Then He will provide one for you too!!! All will be revealed in His timing.
How is the music going? I haven't heard you mention your band in a while. If you guys ever play a gig in the "Hill Country" area, let me know. Mr. Silverado and I will come and see ya!!
I don't think I've been too focused on the search. Lately I've been more in networking mode. I recently reconnected with an old high school buddy of mine that works in a related industry and he may be a good source for some job leads. I'm meeting him for lunch the next week or so to catch up on what's going on in our lives now.
Yes just the interviews have helped her see that she does have a lot of worth. Landing the job will be a good thing all the way around.
I wish I lived in the hill country, I love that area. It's really tough for us to do gigs out of our area (dfw) so unfortunately we never get down your way. Just finished up a little more studio work which was fun as usual. Another gig coming up later this month. Hanging with the band mates really gets my mind off of other things, we spend half the time laughing and joking. I'd be going nuts right now if I didn't have that outlet.
Hey, Cinco-funny your sis gave you the condom lecture. When my oldest son was 14, knowing his dad would NEVER say anything more than either "Don't think about it" or "Don't do it till you're married" I took the opportunity when we happened to be alone to give him what has been known as "The Drugstore Speech" ever since. Found out later from D that he was APPALLED, EMBARRASSED and ANGRY that I mentioned it and thought he'd ever do such a thing. MMMMMMMM, yeah, right. I thought I did a pretty good job of being realistic in telling him even tho he knows what's right, etc. that someday he'll REALLY REALLY wanna do it & if after thinking it over, he still wanted to go ahead, he needed to visit the drugstore first so there wouldn't be a new person in the world 9 mo. later. (condensed version)
This legendary famous/infamous talk has come up in so many funny ways over the years. Younger son had a pal who had a pregnancy scare at 15 w/14 yr old girlfriend. I said, "What!? Didn't you give him the drugstore speech?" Actually he had! The doofus kid just didn't bother to go.
Same son & pals were going to girl's house to swim w/her friends. Parents on premises, furnishing lunch. Gave him $ to get pop & snacks to bring as a polite guest. He & buds said they needed a few extra $$. Why? "We need to stop at the drugstore." They were 14 at the time. Verrry funny. Goof on your mom as much as possible. I laughed, but they still got the hairy eyeball.
I'm into yet another book and again dopamine is discussed. Its the brain chemical that makes you crazy for your new girlfriend, wife, etc. Its also what drives you when sex is hard to get from someone you desire. Hmmmm, yet another thing to wish came in a bottle. Could slip it in their coffee LOL. Only prob w/books, they mention 2 more .. it multiplies. The best part is finding out we're not ignorant. Its that so much of this info is relatively recent.
Losing a child at any age is the worst. Takes away part of your future. I had an older friend yrs ago who had 4 kids but also had 3 miscarriages and 1 stillbirth. It was before the test for being RH negative & nothing could be done. She was pretty religious & philosophical about it, just glad she had 4 healthy ones. Don't know that I could have handled that.
Since you are a musician, have you thought about using your current state as inspiration for playing blues? Not trying to be funny or hurt, just wondered.
I hope the networking helps. What kind of work does your W do? I'm glad not to be job hunting in this recession. Did it in '82. One co. sold, next one closed. At least we both never got laid off at the same time.
Have a good weekend. Jam your blues away Jayce
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
Yeah I've been a frustrated songwriter for years now. It doesn't help when bass is your main instrument, although I do play enough guitar and keyboards to get by. I usually start on bass and then move to the other instruments as needed for inspiration. The only time I ever seem to really get the creative juices flowing is when I'm either very happy or sad. You can probably guess which emotion has been my motivation lately.
I have worked on a few songs lately. I'm mostly an instrumental writer so lyrics have always been the hard part for me. Thank goodness my band's guitarist is a much better writer than I am. It's more in the blues rock vane ala Led Zep with a ZZ Top style vocal and a little AC/DC thrown in.
I think on DQ's blog we talked once about how while playing music you can switch off part of your mind. For me is a place that I can escape and can be a release as well. Same thing for sports, dance, sex, horse riding ....etc.
Did I tell you middle sis is a horse woman too? Her girlfriend even got her into mock fox hunting. There is no fox but they drag a scent around for the dogs to follow. She's lost a lot of weight since she got into all that stuff. Owns a horse now too. I haven't visited down there since she moved to the country. I'm sure they'll get me on a horse when I do. Last time I was on a horse was bareback behind my friend's sister (I think I was about 17 then). I really had a thing for that gal too. She's the only girl that ever stood me up for a date. That's a whole different story.
Yeah Networking... it will be fun just to see my old friend anyway. It's funny how after high school everyone goes their separate ways. He's stayed in the area the whole time.
My wife worked at a bank doing credit reports before. That was 17 years ago. She's not looking for that kind of work now. The best prospect going for her right now is a parts cashier at a car dealer(not one of the big 3 BTW). I think it is really below her skills but at least they have insurance benefits.
She has also applied for book keeping work.
I'm really hoping things start looking up for everyone.
I decided that instead of giving my wife an ultimatum, I would attempt to communicate my feelings about the way our marriage is to her instead. In M/V there is a chapter about writing a "Love Letter" to your spouse. The letter is meant to convey your feelings in a loving way. I'm not sure that it did much of anything for her. I did help me to get these feelings out and onto paper and then to read and give them to her. Here is what I wrote:
A Love Letter Date: January 9, 2009
Dear W,
I am writing this letter to share my feelings with you.
I don't like that our sex life is the last thing on your mind. I feel frustrated that we don't have a physical relationship any longer. I want to kiss you passionately. I want for you to show me affection. I want for us to share amazing feelings together. I am angry that you don't feel that this is an important part of our marriage.
I feel hurt that you reject me over and over. I feel disappointed that no matter what I do nothing ever seems to change for us. I am sad that we have lost so many years of our life together without this simple pleasure. I wanted for our marriage to be full of passion.
I am afraid that if we continue like this, it will cause another split up. I do not want to split up. I need for you to see how important this is for the survival of our marriage. I want to spend the rest of my life with you.
I am sorry for the things that I have done to contribute to our problems. I feel ashamed for the way that I reacted to your rejection. I didn't want to hurt you as I pulled away from you. I am sorry that I didn't give you support in the ways that you needed for me to.
I love you W. I understand that we have had our problems. I know that there is so much right and good about our marriage. I want for us to be as happy as we can be together. I love so much about you and I want to share this with you again.
Love, H
P.S. The response I would like to hear from you:
H, I never realized that this has caused so much pain for you. I promise that I will do everything that I can to revive my desire for you. I love you so much and I want for our marriage to be full of passion again too.
Again, these are things that I think she already knows and have been said in other ways overs the years. It did help for me to release a lot of my resentment and pain. I am learning to let go and be at peace with the way that she is. If she has no more affection to give me, then I can't ask for more than there is for her to give.
If the end of our marriage inevitable, then at least I will know that I tried so hard. There may be nothing either of us could do to change the way that we are towards one another. I keep prying that her passion for me will return. I accept now that this may never happen.
W did get a job and starts work Friday! It's at least one bit of good news. I also have a job prospect in the works again so it would be great if I can get this one.
I like your letter. Hmmmmmmmm I don't think mine was nice. I may change it later on as he has no internet yet so I may take another look at it. Man, I have to say, I am willing as I said to do this for my H, as you are with your W, but......... ( ahhgghggghh$$#$% ))))) DOesnt it sometimes want to make you scream that we have to do this...
Thats why were here I guess, so we can scream to each other and not our spouses. I give you credit Cinco, keep it up and I hope you get something out of it!!!!!
, so I was using those things before it was even cool (70's). That BTW was W and my preferred method of birth control once she quit the pill (after D16's birth she decided not to go back on it). 
This is one relationship book I think every person should read. There were so many revelations for me in there.
....etc.