The unfaithful wife...that's me..

[rustie]

"On the AA issue, let me chime in a few words, Grew up with a highly functioning brilliant father, alcoholic. But there is such a thing as a "dry alcoholic" who stops drinking, somehow, often cold turkey. Does NO introspection about why they drank, learns nothing about how they should cope with stress in the future, gets no tools for the future, but declares themselves "cured" or obviously NOT an alcoholic, b/c they stopped drinking!

But their odd behaviors, overreactions, tempers/ mood swings, and conflict avoidance usually remain, as they really have not been "treated". Don't minimize it."

I guess my question would be .. what makes this person an alcoholic? IF the odd behaviors, overreactions, tempers, mood swings and conflict avoidance were all there BEFORE he was drinking. If the individual had not begun drinking .. he would not have been considered an alcoholic to begin with. He would have (maybe) been considered a very depressed/anxious person.

So, if this person drank for a while and then quit cold turkey .. but did not address those issues (that were there before he drank a lot) how does that MAKE that individual an alcoholic? Wouldn't it just be a case of this person looking for an "out" with the alcohol, didn't find it there, quit the alcohol, but still did not address his personal issues?

How long/how much does a person "have to" drink before they are classified "alcoholic"?

rustie

[25yearsmlc]

R,

The labels are only so helpful. Not sure it matters about the definition of who is an alcoholic or not. What matters is what happens when he drinks. If he only drinks once a year, but gets violent with her, I don't give a crap if he's an alcoholic, I'd want out. And if he's a jerk without alcohol as well, he's a jerk with issues to work on and the fact that he stopped drinking but is still controlling or weird, means he may as well be drunk b/c he acts the same with or without the alcohol. When I say he "may as well be drunk", I mean in terms of her reaction.

Just saying that there's more to this than her A. A lot more. And he is sabatoging the chance of saving the m, for whatever reason. I'm tempted to think he doesn't want to stop drinking and a recon requires that, so he gets to use his pain and anger at the A, as an excuse. He knows the drinking had an effect on their m or she wouldn't have brought it up and he wouldn't have ever quit. Yet he now chooses to start again.

Also, the "powerless" part of the program is to stress to the alcoholic that they cannot trust themselves to start again and control it "this time". It's PERHAPS not technically true in the sense you mean, b/c you fear it lets him off the hook. It doesn't. Same thing about calling it a disease. It's to keep the drinker from trying to control something that they will again lack control over. Don't sweat the terminology. My mom resisted calling my dad an alcoholic b/c she thought it protected him and she wanted him to see it as the character defect she saw it as, which enabled him to keep drinking, ironically, since he wasn't an alcoholic after all! Oh, btw, my dad, with his PhD and law practice, died of liver cancer (75% of Americans with Liver cancer drink a lot....) and he could not get a transplant due to the cirrhosis, so umm, he WAS in fact an "alcohol abuser", if that helps anyone digest the terminology.

As for al-anon, all I know is that at every meeting, I heard something I needed to hear, even if only a sentence or two. But I "shopped" around to find a group that was productive for me. And I didn't buy into doing it forever or wearing the label as if I was a victim.

Calling it a disease just helps to re-inforce that he can't start to believe he can control it again," just have a few," b/c in time he'll be drinking the same amount that caused trouble before. I could be wrong. But how much does it matter? Isn't the issue what he is like when he drinks?

J-

[Mellenmack]

Thanks,J.

I am out of town this week and on a laptop, so forgive me please!!

In an email last week, he started out seeming like he wanted to work it out. Within three paragraphs, he did a complete turnaround basically stating there is no way.

I felt like you got me completely. I could have written your first post. Why? I ask myself this everyday. Because I was weak. Because I was tired of doing SO much - work all week, school for my master's degree on weekend, the kids, the dog, the yard, the bills, changing daycares because D4 was sick all the time, constant ear infections with D4 which was requiring about 1-2 days off every three weeks. My employer was getting aggravated because nothing was getting figured out. And when he'd call, you're exactly right. I said "nothing is wrong" because he was over there and they tell you not to tell them the bad stuff, to keep everything cheery and positive. he complained so much about how hard he had it, but i never did and he never tried to understand. and i felt like i had it ten times harder because i was taking care of everything else and everyone else and NO ONE was taking care of me. Hmm..guess that's an interesting bit of insight. and when other people were supposed to help out, they backed out. lesson learned is to just do it yourself and then there is no letdown. everyone else was taking their bits from me, and it felt like OM was the only one giving anything back. And all it was was recognition for everything I was doing.

I told Breakaway and I mean it. I will go to AlAnon next Tuesday. I worry about being recognized and talked about and somebody telling H that I was there.

I wish I could copy your post and put it into an email from him, but I know that's not right and probably wouldn't be productive. Thank you for posting.

I agree about the "owing" him something. I feel like I "owe" him to let the drinking go and the not trying to make anything better go.

Will sit down when I have time and look at everybody's stuff. I really appreciate everything ya'll have done for me to help me understand and figure out the next step.

Mel

[breakaway]

I told Breakaway and I mean it. I will go to AlAnon next Tuesday. I worry about being recognized and talked about and somebody telling H that I was there.

Anonymity is THE girding underlying principle, so don't be too worried. I felt the same way, I go to a meeting at my kids' school, but they are very discreet.

[SRTTF]

Hi Mel,

I too will be going to Al-Anon on Tues. I have to say I am scared of just sitting there and crying the entire time. I hope to understand why and how he can change so fast and be a person that I don't know. I now hate the saying "I have to follow my heart". That is the last thing my H said to me before he drove off. That was before he said, "no I won't give you a hug. I dont think A#$@ (ow) would like it too much. She doesn't even want me to talk to you." I remember I told him she had better get over it cuz I was his W so to f##kin bad.

Well i just wanted to say, let me know how your mtg goes and I will let you know about mine. If you want to.

[Mellenmack]

ARGGGG!!!!!
We are texting today and everything is okay. He has been quiet so I was asking if everything was okay. He says yes, that he has just had a lot on his mind - life and work. I told him that D4 and I were headed to WalMart and he says "Oh, OW and I are here, maybe I'll see you."

I didn't reply back after that. I should say that I have no proof that this lady is OW. What I do know for sure is that this wench is living at my house and that her furniture is in the master bedroom where H sleeps and that she gets dressed in the master bath in the morning. She has clothes in D4's room and other stuff everywhere in the house. What was supposed to be two weeks of helping someone out has turned into three months of a non-rent-paying squatter (in my opinion, mind you) with no end in sight. I haven't asked and he hasn't informed. So I am calling her OW because I think at minimum there is at least EA, don't you guys think?

I go ahead and go to WM because I am not going to rearrange my life to avoid him. I want this to work, remember?? So he sees D4 and I and I keep walking because I am not going to go speak to him while she is there. I just can't do it. I'm not that strong. Does he follow us then? Well, no, and I realize DAM was expecting me to go play nice. got to be FKM.

I keep shopping. Almost done. Head out of groceries to cd's and he sees us and comes over. Talks for about 5 min about superficial stuff and kisses D4, then departs back to OW. Seems to have no problem with it. I walk away and D4 asks where her daddy is going and I tell her with OW. Maybe I shouldn't have, I don't know.

Part of me feels like I deserve this, because I had the A. But dangit!! He knows exactly what he is doing and he is doing it out of spite, and that is what really pisses me off. Then he texts me later "Are you okay?" Got to be FKM!!@!@!

I am still shaking. But I guess this is what my life is going to look like if we can't work it out isn't it??


J, you talked about payback and I thought I had seen some, but him expecting me to just come on over and play nice was over the top. It never even crosses his mind "How would I feel if Mel expected me to come talk to her when she was with OM?"

I stayed calm and cool and made no derogatory remarks, I just let everything slide and didn't answer. Surely he figured it out after he opened his mouth. I am so mad!! I know I have to get used to it, because this may be how things are, but I don't deserve to have it shoved down my throat, either.

He is going to blame work and life for sitting on this marriage and not making a decision to work it out or not for the next 8 months, I just know it. How are any of you that patient? I like things settled, and I'm not sure I can handle 8 months of him sitting on the fence with the future of all our lives in his hands. I know D4 and I will be fine no matter what, because we will go on and move forward. But letting him have the ability to walk back in in 6 months and say yeah, let's try, is hard.

I am so frustrated!!!!

Mel

[Mellenmack]

Just off the phone with H. I swear. I had asked him to keep D4 this afternoon so I could go to the dentist. He just called to see if he could pick her up a little early cause they are going out of town. Of course I ask why they are going and he says "S13 needs new shoes and OW wants to go pick up some things". Then he asks if I'm okay. And I just want to scream. No, I'm not okay. I'm sick of having this woman rubbed in my face. I'm sorry I had two f*n A's, but that does NOT mean that you get to be a total a$$ to me.

I'm so mad, I'm shaking and the crying is about to start all over again. I know it's not DB, but this on top of the drinking on top of everything else, it's like he's just trying to push me into a D.

And if I say anything about it, he'll just say, well, you're the one that had the As so you have no room to talk. What do I say to that???? Any advice on that would be great. And after that, I guess I am going to have to set some boundaries. D4 has been going there already to spend nights and having time with them and I guess I can't stop that. I guess I can only allow it on those Weds. nights and the weekends that we agreed to. I dunno. Any advice or opinions, please. I'm too shaky and foggy to see straight right now. What does it say that if he is pushing her on me to see how I'll react??? On top of everything else???

Mel

[Mellenmack]

It's the same with the drinking and the porn, too now that I think about it. He'll text and ask what I'm doing and I tell him and then I'm stupid and ask him what he's doing and he'll say having a drink or watching porn. Not always, but sometimes, and it's like he's just doing it to get a reaction. And cutting the conversation short is the only reaction he gets, usually. What I wouldn't give this afternoon to be able to throw my rings at him and tell he wins.

What person in their right mind (me????) would want to go back with someone who treats them like that...??? WTH is wrong with me???

Mel

[breakaway]

(((((Mel)))))

Nothing is wrong with you.

He is an emotional abuser, alcohol or no alcohol. He is tormenting you on purpose. WTF else would he say something about OW and THEN ask "are you okay?" For him to say what's going on? oh I'm drinking and looking at porn is CRAZY.

Mel, no wonder you are upset. He's massively f*&king with your head. It's sick. I don't have any "advice" right at the moment...I just wanted to tell you there is nothing wrong with YOU. You have to let go of your affair guilt and start thinking enough of yourself to not let him keep punishing you for it.

If anything, if you want to use HIS mindset for the day, now that he's doing it, you're off the hook. If it's okay for him...what do you feel so bad about?

Low self-esteem led you into your affairs and low self-esteem is letting you be beat up because of them.

I don't know a lot about all the DB techniques really, because I'm the AWAW...but I would think going dark is the best thing you can do at this point. Then concentrate on you.

[Mellenmack]

I've thought about that, too, Breakaway, but then I get it thrown in my face that I'm just a roller coaster ride and that if that's how it is now, he doesn't want to do it anymore. Or I'm accused of not wanting to be friends or doing what's in the best interest of the kids. It seems like a no-win stitch, no matter what.

Will think more about the going dark though and reread that chapter. Need to reread the whole book for the third time.

Hugs, sweetie.

Mel