Maybe I should be in piecing part 5?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

So, if you told her that the only way you'll stay in this marriage is if she does x, y, and z, you really think she will say she wants to divorce? I don't get that feeling.

I contend that she is saying that! By her ACTIONS.

Isn't that what we teach around here, that it's ACTIONS, not WORDS? So what words could H4U's wife possibly say to him (not that I think she'd say them anyway) that would mean more than the actions she's been displaying for the past year???

I'm not saying he should give up. I admire him fighting for his marriage. But what I AM saying is that she's not going to do ANYTHING until he forces her into her own crucible. That seems to be the only thing she's responded to.

Puppy

[kat727]

When she throws out the shoe on the other foot crap do you call her on it? The shoe is not on the other foot. You did NOT have an Affair. I think you need to let her know how little she is fulfilling your needs while you are doing everything in your power to fill hers. Time for the hard talk me thinks or things will get worse in your mind.

kat

[sandi2]

I mean, she actually said to me, "Am I ashamed of what I've done? I guess somewhat, but I'm more ashamed that you told the kids". How does she not get that if she hadn't had the affair, the kids wouldn't have had to be told anything?

As you may remember, this was my argument in not telling the kids. The way she looks at it was "why did you have to bring the kids in on our private problems?" She's thinking that the kids would not have had to know if you had not told them! Plus, she feels that you betrayed her when you made her out to be the worse possible parent in the world to her children. Yes, I know it all sounds backward from the way you see it b/c you see her as the wayward wife. She did the sin, so she has to pay. Right? Were you her Judge and did you sentence her? I can tell you that she feels that way toward you. So, if it is taking her longer than you think it should to get her act together, you need to remember all of this that is going around in her head.

No matter what a mother does or how low she sinks, she does not want her children to know b/c they put her up high in the rank of respect (you know, "motherhood" and all that) and when she knows that that has been shattered, then she never, ever believes that they will feel the same toward her again. You took that from her. That is the way she feels. I know, you believe she did that to herself when she had the affair and that she should have thought about all of that, etc., etc. But, that is not the mind of a WAW and that was what I tried to tell you when you were considering exposing her to the kids. She sees you, her husband, doing this damage to her R with her children that can never be undone. You feel that the A was the worst she could do to you, but a mother feel that what YOU did is the worst that could be done to her. Have you ever considered that? That is the difference between men and women.

You and she may even make a go of the MR, but what about her children? Will they ever respect or love her in the same sense they once did? I doubt it! And she has you to thank for that, so I'm sure she can hardly wait to answer all of your needs.

Now, I know that was harsh. As I said, I was trying to give you the thoughts of a WAW just as WhatDidIDo has tried to tell you. I am just not as sweet is she is. It takes so much time b/c as she said, it is all emotional work for the WAW. You have no idea how long it has taken me to even start to come around to liking my H again and to try my best to put what he did to me in the past. I would explain more, but I can't b/c of things I write being read by some I don't want reading it. If you know what I mean.

I still feel very uncomfortable around my family and the longer time goes on, the more I think more people in my family may know and it all started with my H. One finds out and tells the other, and so on. So, I don't think I will ever have what I once had and the way I see it, it could have been taken care of between my H and me. But he wanted to lash out and hurt me in the worst way I could be hurt.....so he did. Have you even tried to put yourself in her place? How do you think you would feel if somebody stole your R away from your children where they would never feel the same toward you as they once did? Have you even given that a thought? I'm wondering if that is how she feels.....that you stole it from her.

What you and your son were talking about that show and the "soul mate" and all that stuff. I assumed you were saying that in front of your W. I got the impression you were, anyway. Why didn't you just stab her in the heart and be done with it? That was so .........I can't even think of the word I want to use. Vindictive, I suppose. Didn't you have a clue as to what that was doing to her? Oh, I think you knew exactly what you were doing to her. And, both you and the son, at that! So, see how much good it did to tell the son about his mother? If I got all this wrong.....and I very well could have, then once again, I'll have to apologize. But, if I'm right, then I can tell you that you just hurt your chances that much more b/c it drug all of that mess up again and she's thinking that you will never let it die b/c every chance you get (just as with that show) you are going to stick it to her.......and now her son will too.

I have come around to changing my mind in some cases about exposing affairs to others. But as a mother who has experienced this pain, I just have such a hard time knowing that H's would do that to the mother of their children when they could work it out between them privately. I'm talking about before they give it a chance to be worked out privately and the A hasn't gone public. If they couldn't and the affair goes public (and maybe your W's did.....I'm sorry, I can't remember right now) then there isn't much you can do about it. If it is out there in the public, then the kids are likely to hear about it. So, you can't protect her.

The thing that I'm concerned about for you is that you have detached so much that I am afraid that you have turned into one of the LBS that detached too much and now you aren't so sure you want her back. You have so many concerns about yourself (which I'm not saying you don't have a right to have) but you sound so unsure of what you want. I do think you have a wall much too high around yourself and she is not going to be able to tear it down b/c she is too fragile and she has her own battles to fight. You are going to have to take that wall down and you are going to have to allow yourself to become vulnerable. That is what you are fighting right now. You won't let yourself get into that position again b/c you have told yourself that you will not ever allow anyone to hurt you like that again.

She is probably has some walls she is dealing with also. So, both of you will have to tear your own them down or you won't make it. That is part of loving and learning to trust each other again. I have learned that from my H. I know that this has been hard on him to say the very least. And, I think he went behind me on ever site I went to and I think he read everything I probably posted on this board for a long time. Maybe he still does. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. But I don't think he feels the "need" to check up on me like he did in the beginning. Remember, I did not want to stay with him. But, in spite of all that, I know that he had to trust me b/c he did not stand over me 24/7. He has not done any of the things he was doing to show his lack of trust before when he knew about the OM. So, he had to allow himself to be vulnerable to the chance of having the pain repeated and to trust me, even if it meant that I might hurt him all over again.

Well, you said something about my "novels" and here I went and did it again. I truly was not trying to sound hateful to you, but was trying to get you to remember how we WAW's think. I know, it's crazy, but that is the way it is.

I really hope things work out for the two of you.

Sandi

[fightingirish]

hope ... you have fb mail

[Hope4us]

Ok Sandi, I typed up a long response, but it was pretty angry and I'm sure I would have said some things I'd regret later so I'm going to shelve that one for now and just say, I've read what you have said and I'll respond later tonight when I have some time.

[Hope4us]

And oh yeah. She didn't call last night. Even after I was talking to S16 and told him if his mom wanted to talk when she was done doing what she was doing she could give me a call.

[whatdidido]

Hope,

Boy, my posts are getting lengthier. I'm going to give Sandy a run for her money in "WHo's the longest Poster" contest.

I didn't mean to give her an ultimatum with the x, y, and z comment. I was trying to make you see, I guess, that I don't think your wife is looking to leave even if you ask her to do some things for the marriage. In fact, in my earlier posts I was saying how BEFORE you give your ultimatum (the moving threat), why not ask her to do these things for you and give her a chance?

I think I'm a little confused now, though. You said there were no relationship talks, etc. But now you say you HAVE told her about the fact you need her to read the books, and do other things. When did you do this? If it was recently, then I'm very surprised she didn't have a better response. If it was right after it all happened, I'm not surprised. She seems to be moving in the right direction, her head seems to be getting in a better place, and to her that probably seems to be good. She doesn't know that it can get even BETTER, and can help even faster if she DOES get more help like you want her to do. Not to mention, YOU need her to do these things for YOU.

I guess I just think you need another sit down, talk. NOt a letter where you don't actually communicate about it. I think, sometimes, letters can be great because you can get all you want said out in the open and off your chest and you can feel like, "There. Now she knows." But, I also think they are bad in that you don't actually COMMUNICATE together about the issues. Could you have the kids out for the night and just sit AT HOME, no distractions, and have a real heart to heart about your needs and feelings? For guys this is really hard, I know. The last thing my H ever wants to do is have those talks. He tries EVERYTHING else to get his point across first, and will have that kind of a talk as a last resort. Get everything out on the table. Will you guys argue with this talk? Yeah, probably. She will have feelings about it, too. That's all part of the communication. You have to communicate to her exactly how you feel and what you need and why and she will do the same. Then, you work together on how to accomplish this. Make a plan. You may think that you have already done this and think of every reason why it won't work. Why not think how it COULD work, and expect that it won't be an easy conversation? Try to talk, without the sarcasm (she does this more than you). Mention retrouvaille again. Maybe if you can both work on the communication, the rest will fall into place.

Actions speak louder than words...Puppy mentioned this. It's so true. I can see how you feel that she isn't doing anything. I truly feel like she is doing more than you realize....it's the head and the emotions. You both have lost a lot with her decision. That kind of pain takes awhile, and lots of talking. Even the best of marriages usually have something pretty bad happen to them eventually. You have been doing so many wonderful things to work on your marriage, and talking will just be one more thing. REalllllllly talking. Then, don't just let it sit on the table. KEEP talking. Repeat if necessary. Every day. You are trying to start a new, BETTER relationship. THat's going to take some work, and some changes on BOTH of your parts. There was a time in the process where you were suppose to stop having R talks. YOu guys aren't in that part of the process anymore.

The reason why Sandi and I feel we can tell you these things is because you truly listen to us even when it may be hard to hear. SOme of the hardest posts to me hit me the hardest. Even if I didn't agree with everything, I got something from it. We aren't there with you, only YOU know what is going on in your home, but we can help you try to figure out your wife and help you have a happy marriage by trying to give advice we think will help based upon what we know. I don't think you and your wife would be happier, divorced.

[Hope4us]

I'm glad I waited to respond Sandi, because what I wrote this morning before heading to my class wasn't very nice. But I've edited quite a bit and will leave it at this in response.

MY S16 KNEW HIS MOTHER WAS HAVING AN AFFAIR MONTHS AND MONTHS BEFORE I TOLD HIM. Since I told him the truth, which he THANKED me for doing, his grades have gone from a 2.3 gpa to a 3.4 gpa. He was a 3.5 gpa prior to her beginning her affair. When a mother says to their 16 year old son, I'm going away AGAIN this weekend and S16 asks "where are you going"? and his mother says "to spend the weekend with a friend". How do you think that made him feel? And when S16 asks his mother who her boyfriend is and she looks him dead in the eye and LIES to him, how do you think that made him feel? So yes, I told the boys. But they ALREADY knew. This wasn’t like I discovered the affair and W ended it and then at some point I told the kids to be vindictive. Quite the contrary. I didn’t tell the kids until over 7 months after I figured it out. And if my marriage ends because my kids know the truth, so be it. I can live with that. But when she continued to lie and lie about it being over all the while trying to arrange meetings with him, I then told them the truth that THEY ALREADY KNEW.

See Sandi, I didn't tell them for over 7 months because I was trying to work it out with her WITHOUT the kids knowing. But she continued and continued to lie about it being over, so I was going to file for divorce. And if, at the time, I'd have filed for divorce, W would have been heading to the courthouse with OM as soon as the ink was dry on the D papers (hers and his both). And in my sitch OM is an alcoholic, serial cheating, abusive POS. He drinks every day. He's had 4 affairs that his wife knows about and since they live 1000 miles apart, there's probably twice that many she doesn't know about. 2 out of 3 of his kids HATE him because he verbally abuses them and he verbally abuses his W and has pushed her around and punched the wall next to her head two times in the past.

So, ya know what? If my marriage ends, I can live with that. But my kids were going to know the truth about the POS. There was no way I would allow my kids to be exposed to OM without them knowing the truth. How many times have we read on this board where a wayward spouse tries to normalize their relationship with an OP by introducing them to the kids? My W wanted to marry OM and live happily ever after with MY kids part of that. You are a mother. Would you do anything to protect your kids? I’m sure you would. That’s what I was doing. Protecting my kids from an alcoholic, serial cheatin, abusive POS. And I’d do it again in a minute.

Do I realize that has caused problems in my W and I possibly piecing our marriage back together? Yes. But I also know, without the kids knowing, we’d NEVER even be close to where we are, because I was going to see a lawyer to file for divorce when I told the kids. So if me telling them gives our marriage a chance, it’s better than the alternative. I’ve repeatedly told my boys that their mother isn’t a bad person, she just got caught up in something that was wrong. I’ve used this as a learning tool for my boys in relationships and what’s acceptable and what isn’t.

As to the show, I see it a little different than you. W actually smiled, laughed and said "yeah" when S16 made his comment. I actually saw it as a good thing, not something bad like you seem to think. I really don’t think W equates that show with her sitch at all. W even makes comments about other people having affairs and how bad it is and she just can’t believe people would do that, but it’s different for her. How screwed up is that?

Ok, I hope you know I value your responses completely. You give me insight into my W (along with WDID) that are invaluable to me in trying to understand what she's thinking and going through.

Thanks for the post. Keep em comin.

[Hope4us]

WDID. Thanks again for the post. I guess I mis-read your comment. It made me think you were advocating an ultimatum.

The last time I asked her to read books and get rid of her affair stuff was in late November. I asked her about Retro in Sept and prior to that in July. If she is truly NC since April, wouldn't you think that by 10 months later she'd at least know if she wants to try or not? Maybe she does want to try, and is trying, but doesn't want to specifically say that to me because she doesn't want to give me ANY kind of commitment.

I'll have to think about the R talk. She has said to me she doesn't want to talk about it and I've told her I wouldn't pressure her to do that until she was ready, but that I wasn't going to wait forever. So I will have to think about it. If I've made the commmitment to her that I won't push it until she's ready, how do I go back on that commitment?

Its funny you would say it's hard for guys to have serious talks. That's never been my problem, but it is for her. In fact, many, many times in our marriage W would say to me in a moment of weakness, "I know you don't think I love you, but I do". She rarely would tell me she loved me without me saying it first. But about once every six months or so, she'd let her guard down and express how she truly felt. I realize now that that caused some of our problems in our marriage because I am very expressive of my feelings and she isn't and I felt shorted in that. So for me, the only time I felt the emotional closeness with her is when we were intimate. It was the only time I could really count on her expressing how she felt with me. So if she would reject me, it bothered me more than it should have because that was when she would give me what I need. So yeah, I guess what everyone here says is true, but just reversed for us. My W expressed her feelings for me through sex where I expressed my feelings for her through words/gifts/acts of service.

So that's what I'm up against. W would rarely let herself express to me how she felt for me. And now she really has this demon to fight. I don't know if it's because of the things that have happened to her in her life that makes her put up this wall to protect herself from getting hurt by the people who really love her or what.

Getting back to the sitch at hand. Like I said, W didn't call me last night. I called her after I got out of work tonight and she didn't answer. She TM'd me back a bit later and said she didn't get the call because she was taking S16 to get his hair cut and there are quite a few dead cell zones on the way (which is true). She asked me (TM) why I wasn't out tonight, so I can tell that had some affect on her that I was out with friends having a good time. I told her if she wanted to call when she was done, I would love to talk to her.

She called me a bit ago and I told her I was surprised she didn't call me last night after I'd told S16 to tell her if she wanted to talk I was sitting in my room. She replied she was busy taking down Chrismas decorations and finishing up some work she needed to do for today and it got late and she just didn't call. If I didn't know better, I'd swear she was DB'ing me. It was a nice conversation but she kind of ended it early as she said she hadn't eaten yet and was hungry. That is probably true as S16's haircut was soon after she'd got off work and I'm sure she didn't eat before taking him, but again, you'd swear she was DB'ing me by ending the call first.

Wouldn't that be ironic? W DB'ing me? Maybe I should check out the WAW board and see if she's there!

Thanks again WDID. You too Sandi. WDID is correct. I do listen to you guys, even if it's hard for me to hear. Interesting thing at work today. I'm in an interpersonal communications class and we discussed the different types of personalities and how you have to deal with them when you're in supervision. W and I have taken these personality tests before and today just reminded me that even though W accuses me of having a controlling personality, she's the one that scores solidly in the controlling category. And this whole mess has confirmed that for me. Guess I'll have to use what I've learned in adjusting how I deal with W.

Lots to think about. Talk to ya later.

[sandi2]

Ok Sandi, I typed up a long response, but it was pretty angry and I'm sure I would have said some things I'd regret later so I'm going to shelve that one for now and just say, I've read what you have said and I'll respond later tonight when I have some time.

Hope4Us, I think I can take what I dish out pretty good, but I am glad that you felt the need to delete the angry post. I do appreciate the fact that you went into the details to remind me of all you went through during the stitch. As I said before, if the A has gone public and the couple is flauting it and doesn't appear to care who it hurts or the consequences, then I can see exposing it b/c it is already exposed! They did that themselves. When you have children in school, and especially older kids, they are very likey to hear it from another person if they haven't figured it out for themselves (as your son did). It is hard for me to imagine a mother lying like that to her child, but then I have to remember how crazy one can be when they are that deep in MLC. There is no excuse, and I am not giving one.....only saying that I know they are crazy when they are like that.

I must have misunderstood about the show, and I do apologize for that b/c I thought the two of you were using the show to try to hurt your W for what she had said in the past about "soul mates" etc.

Like you, I probably should not have written my post with so much emotional pain that was more mine than anything else, so I hope you will take that into consideration. It is my pain H4us that I was really thinking about when I wrote that post to you and was lashing out not specifically at you (at least I did not mean to do that, but it did sound like it) but to anyone in general that does not understand the heart of a WAW and mother. I wanted to get a messsage across to those that would intentionally expose the mother's sins to their children as a way of hurting her and lashing back at her for what she had done.

However, as you have pointed out, if the mother is so messed up that she would look her child in his eyes and lie like that.....then what can you do but try to do what you did? As you said, you have to protect your children. I agree with that.

I realize that when I sent that post it was my pain talking and I should not have expressed it on your thread. We've talked several times about this subject and I think we agree, but we just don't say it exactly the same way, if that makes sense. Anyway, I apologize for upsetting you by "my venting".

I think you have tried for a long time to make this work. I was concerned that you have detached too much and may be at the point of giving up. How ironic if that was to happen just as she was ready to try again to make the M work.

Anyway, I pray that all will be well with you and that your family will be blessed.

Sandi