Standing on the Edge

[native]

Hey, thanks for asking, Msm....W got back from beach vacation with D. She stayed with a recently married work friend and several other couples/families.

It was a generally good time for her to relax and bond with D (something which was much needed for both), but she didn't get to watch tv or shop as much as she would have liked (guys were watching football and she had almost no extra $$$)

Since she has been back, so far, she has been more approachable than normal. She went to ride bikes with D today (something they did a lot of at the beach) but D's bike had mechanical issues, so I came to the rescue.

While there I had to take over bc D was having a lot of trepidation about using her own bike (she had borrowed some bike at the beach which would not tip over). The salient issue here is that W had limited patience for dealing with this. I don't know if it would have been better off to just step back and let her handle it, but I could see D was not going to have a good time if someone did not take a more patient approach.

Ended up driving them both back to her place bc W's blood sugar crashed (isn't that something you can plan for....like take a little snack or something? This has happened countless times, but she is never prepared).

On a positive note, I told her I would like to get together with her sometime to talk, and she seemed open to it.

She also waved and caught my eye when I left, which is not normal.

I chalk it up to her having been around married couples for a week and seeing how they interact, possibly missing me or married life, possibly thinking about our last vacation, which went quite well, possibly thinking about the fact she was unable to shop....

The goodwill will likely wear off....

[MsMelancoly]

Hey native, So it seems you are quite the optimist - like myself (btw I'm being sarcastic).

In any case, whatever the reason your W was in a good mood. Maybe it will continue. She probably is in reaction mode & not action mode and not just w/you, but w/your D was well.

The other day I was re-reading your sitch & it made me think about being our spouses friend. Tis a fine line that we all struggle with (I'm definately at fault w/this line). When your W bought a new car, you acted like her friend (but went a step further w/ a kiss); W went shopping w/a male friend, you didn't act like a friend; you called W on xmas morning, you acted like her friend; didn't help her carry gifts or make coffee, you didn't act like a friend; helped with the bike issue, you acted like a friend (& a caring father to your D); drove your W to get meds, acted like a friend.

I'm guessing some of the "not helping" is a 180 for you since stated you over helped before. I supposed it's also a fine line from acting like a spouse to acting like a parent to your spouse (I'm guilty of that).

I'm not saying that your actions were right or wrong. Just something I noticed.

[native]

Yes, msm, I have not been consistant with the friend/not friend thing. It is hard to know when to offer help and when to let her take care of herself, which she needs to learn how to do.

I don't claim that I know or knew whether I was taking the right approach at any particular time....

It's something I am trying to figure out....

[native]

She probably is in reaction mode & not action mode and not just w/you, but w/your D was well.

I think my W's main way of coping with the world is to react emotionally, which her counsellor told her short circuits the brain. When we are controlled by emotion, the brain is in neutral. I was thinking about this today.

She admitted to me that generally she is in 'escape' mode right now.

I know W has problems beyond those caused by our marriage.

Still I wonder what the effect on her would be if I told her that I truly believed that so much of her behavior would have been different had I been able to love her in the way she needed.

Because it seems to keep coming back to this. This is where I was slow to learn, this is what hurt her. ( Of course her attempts to address this put me off...another story).

If I was given a chance to romance her and work through these intimacy issues with the knowledge I have now, I see a 50/50 chance of success.

If she could also learn to forgive, empathise, recognize and try to meet my needs (for admiration, respect), stop the blame and accuse cycle, deal with her anxiety effectivly and have faith that everything will get better if we are willing to learn, then I see a 95% chance of success for us.

[MsMelancoly]

Because it seems to keep coming back to this. This is where I was slow to learn, this is what hurt her. ( Of course her attempts to address this put me off...another story).

Have you apologized for this?


If she could also learn to forgive, empathise, recognize and try to meet my needs (for admiration, respect), stop the blame and accuse cycle

Since your W is still in the escape mode, unfortunately, it seems your needs, which are valid will have to wait.

Blame & accusations - not good. But in a strange & warped way, I guess it is communicating. WE cannot change the past, only learn from our mistakes. (I'm very good at mistakes & learning from them only after making them a few times ..... hopefully).

Have you ever read The Relationship Cure, by John Gottman?? A very good book about how to communicate effectively to your spouse, children, friends, co-workers ..... and others. I thought the chapter about communicating to children was especially insightful. Maybe after reading it & judging it for yourself, you could leave it out for your W to spot (since it wouldn't be directly realated to her, but rather to better yourself). I actually gave it to my H last year. Don't know if he read it, but I suspect it was the book he loaned to his mother. (Last time we met I asked for the R books I gave him back - if he hadn't burned them).

[native]

Because it seems to keep coming back to this. This is where I was slow to learn, this is what hurt her. ( Of course her attempts to address this put me off...another story).

Have you apologized for this?

Numerous times. This does not reassure her that it will be any different however. But I am doing small things differently that I can...the jewelry for Christmas (she really liked it), an occasional card...little gifts or letters. These are appreciated with her and I am able to do this occasionally. This is something I did not do a lot of before.

As to the intimacy problems, I am planning to address that directly, with a clear description of what I would be willing to do to put the focus on her needs.

She seems to be willing to get together, to go out, so I think I will ask her soon. I need to rehearse what I am going to say re: my promises on addressing the intimacy issue.


I have not read the Relationship Cure, sounds good.

Yes, blame and accusations do contain the information that I want to hear, its just hard to filter out all the hurtful stuff and get the gold of what is being communicated. I'm better at it now, but really hope she learns a different way of expressing her needs someday....

[MsMelancoly]

Hey native, So how are you??

Well, it is good that you apologized. I would say that actions also speak volumes to women. (As you can see from my sitch - I'm waiting for action from my H).

Olbiviously, the blame & accusations still say that your W is hurting & hasn't gotten past that yet.

I've started reading Michele's other book - Getting Through to the Man you Love. So far it has reinforced that men & women don't think the same. Something that I keep forgetting. It's easy to assume the other sex thinks as you do - so not true.

And yes, women love to be romanced. I think back to the last time my H asked to make love. I was watching the tv & turned him down. Did he try anything to get me in the mood ... no he just asked. Now if things would have been 'good' between us, I probably would have jumped at the chance. But things were less than perfect (even though, I didn't really realize it), so I needed the extra effort from him to get me in the mood. To this day, I feel bad about dejecting him, another nail in the M coffin. Oh, well, live & learn - right?

Have you ever asked her to go to MC?

[native]

Thanks for checking Msm. I just got back from going out with a divorced buddy to hang downtown, get out and see whats happening. Same old town, same tired and not very attractive people.

Yes, live and learn. I feel I've grown more in the last 8 mos. than in 7 yrs of marriage.

At this point W is not actively accusing. Her $$$ situation cannot be blamed on me. She is in the negative on her bank account until the 2nd of Feb.

I hope I can make all my obligations.

Due to w's two rapes one year before our marriage, just getting an affectionate response was difficult, even to non-sexual cuddling, etc.

It was hard to 'romance' someone who was shutting down due to rape trauma and who withdrew out of fear, and communicated poorly about what she needed.

Much less, never seemed to be interested in what I needed.

But to be fair, she was wounded from the rapes and really couldnt be concerned about what I needed.

I just didnt really understand how profoundly she had been hurt, neither did I understand how she liked to be approached, so I eventually gave up, especially after she said she never wanted to ML w me again.

Apparantly she had been accomodating me against her wishes upon the advice of her counselor.

To me, the necessary communication seems like it would have been a lot easier than it was in reality for her.
But it really never happened.

Have you ever asked her to go to MC?

In a very odd way, she asked me. She asked me if I would like to go see our counselor. At the time, I thought she was the one with the problems and did not understand what she was saying.

She certainly did not seem to be asking me to go with her.

I asked after the bomb. It was clear that her counselor had not helped her or us. We needed a clearer voice and better advice. But by that time her heart wasn't in it.

I don't think her heart was ever into her changing however. Even with her depression and rape trauma.

[MsMelancoly]

Hey native, It seems such a common theme that our WAS, has so many of their own issues to work out, by themselves.

The rape issues must be extremely difficult to deal with and has probably affected her self esteem & self worth. Do you think you were her rescuer, father type figure or protector? Have you ever read any books about dealing with rape? I read a few books on depression & male depression. It was insightful to read how my H may be feeling & how he sees the world so differently.

I too, think that my H's IC isn't helping him. Maybe it is - just not with M. But no matter what IC one sees they have to face their fears & want to change. I think it's so true that IC is built around doing what "feels" good & not what is right. I went to see a M counselor last year (before I found DB). It was helpful about learning about myself.

Your W probably has so many emotions, she doesn't know what to do. Could some of her hurtful comments be directed at men in general??

Stay strong!!

[native]

Msm,

Thanks for keeping in touch. So much of what you say makes sense. Yes, I was a bit of a rescuerer.

I have read some websites dedicated to rape victims, but only a few are helpful in my situation.

It makes sense what you say about my W having so many emotions that she doesn't know what to do. It seems that she has never resolved any relationship conflict healthily in her life and they all came to a head before she dropped the bomb.

She has said that she is not looking for a new relationship, though she has flirted with some guys.

Sometimes she tries me to the very limit, thought I have gained much from my involvement on this site in regards to not reacting and dealing with her confusing statements.

She was acting crazy again tonight, seemed it was about $$$. We have some $$ that is being reimbursed to us from AON, we are supposed to split it. She was acting real pissy about how she could not afford medication (she is broke this month) and needed to pay for child care. It took a long time to figure out what she was asking for, and longer to find out why she was so pissy.

She was asking for the remainder of the reimbursement (after paying for child care) to be able to buy her medications.

Why didn't she just ask me for it, instead of all the bitching and moaning and drama?

She expained that she couldn't ask for it nicely because if she did I might think we were getting back together......

I said her behaviour makes me want to say forget it, no you can't have my half of the $$$. But I also said she could go ahead and buy the meds.

I have no use for her drama anymore.....I am not going to put up with it.....even if it means no reconcilliation.

She admitted she has a lot of unresoved anger.

I guess she does....aparantly her counselor told her to not deprive me of sex, though she really was not in a healthy place to be able to participate in a normal sex life.