The way my H is, if I make a big deal about his drinking .. well, I may as well call it quits. We have argued way too much about it in the recent past. He knows how I feel, but will give me h*ll if I say or show any frustration about it.
So it's (for me) an either or deal. There is no middle ground.
By the way .. I have tried attending Al-Anon in the past. I don't know if it is the group I picked to attend or what. But, I was so totally turned off, I could not go back.
Again, I was not trying to put you on the spot with my previous questions to you. I was just really, really interested in knowing how those deep feelings of love and wanting to "make it" returned for you.
How did they return...I understand what you are asking now, but unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you.
Breakaway will love this response. Even though he drank, and at times it was bad...IT WASN'T AS BAD AS OTHER PEOPLE, so it must be okay. I know that's not really true, even though I partially feel that way. Yeah, he puked down the side of the bed and it was gross. Yeah, there were times he completely ignored me.
Wait, I know why they (the feelings) returned. Because he quit drinking for three years. Then, when he went on this tour to Iraq, he called home and told me he felt like he could have a drink again. But that didn't cause me to have the affair. I was overwhelmed with everything I was doing. And I was hurt and acting out like a two year old. But for the last three years, life has actually been pretty good. Definitely not as bad. But now that I've had the affair, he is able to justify his drinking with "Well, you're the one that had the affair, so you are the one with the problems and now I see my drinking was never the problem. You were." Of course that is not verbatim and it was certainly not as vicious as that sounds. But it wasn't far from it and keep in mind that he was hurt and angry when he said it.
I don't feel like you were putting me on the spot. It's everyone's job here (I feel, maybe wrongly) to be honest and forthright when asked a question because we are ALL trying to help each other out of the he!! we are in.
Good luck to you.
Mel
"Standing knee deep in a river and dying of thirst."
Okay, BA, here is my issue with AA. It believes that people are powerless over the alcohol. I don't believe that is so. This is my trouble with ALL addictions. I have thought about it until I am blue in the face (not just the last few days but for the last 2 1/2 years). I believe people make choices. I believe that they make the choice to drink. He made the choice every night for 7-10 years whether to have drink or not. Most nights he did. Some nights he did not. I feel like if the alcohol had the power, he would have drank every night. Three years ago, he quit cold turkey. By choice. And now, he is returning to it. Also by choice. I can choose whether I let it affect me or not. I can choose my attitude about it. I can choose my reactions to it. It does not have control over my feelings or reactions to it. Am I hurt? Yes. Because I choose to be. I can also choose not to give a $hit. I believe.
I will still try AA a few times, because I may gain a different perspective there, and come to change my mind. But like I said, I've thought about my beliefs about humans and our actions for awhile now and that is where I am. It is very hard for me to take what/how I view human nature and apply it to my own sorry situation. Insight...I feel I should have insight...I feel like I have none. It is extremely hard for me to climb out of this picture and look at it objectively.
Alright. Ya'll have a good day.
BA, don't hold anything back. Don't keep anything to the back cause you don't think I'm ready. I won't say I'm ready, but I'll say that I need to think about all the different angles and such together.
Thank you, girlie. I appreciate your friendship and your caring. Truly.
Mel
"Standing knee deep in a river and dying of thirst."
Let me sit on it for awhile Breakaway. I want the marriage to work. It's not going to work as long as he's drinking to excess, which probably will happen if he's drinking a little. He is determined to be able to have a drink if he wants to. If I make it a dealbreaker at this point, this marriage is already doomed. I might as well file for divorce now.
I don't know how to find a medium.
Mel
I was never implying your marriage can't work because of this. I'm working on making my marriage work and I don't foresee my H quitting drinking. But I am learning a lot more about how it's affecting things, and how I will choose to handle it. And how I'm going to help my kids handle it. Because this affects them as much as me.
I will still try AA a few times, because I may gain a different perspective there, and come to change my mind.
They tell you when you leave (or they're supposed to)...take what you like and leave the rest. So, it's not as if it's a cult and you have to subscribe to everything everyone says or anything. I hope you do try it, because you will surely find some things that apply or help in your sitch, as well as meet some people that can be supportive. I find just talking to people there that know what it's like is a relief in itself.
BA, I will go at least a few times. I agree that just talking to people who know is a relief. I know they aren't a cult. Wasn't trying to give that impression and I apologize if I did. Hate these computers sometimes.
Mel
"Standing knee deep in a river and dying of thirst."
But now that I've had the affair, he is able to justify his drinking with "Well, you're the one that had the affair, so you are the one with the problems and now I see my drinking was never the problem. You were." Of course that is not verbatim and it was certainly not as vicious as that sounds. But it wasn't far from it and keep in mind that he was hurt and angry when he said it.
It's quite understandable he would say this. As you know everyone feels compelled to reach for justifications for behaivor. Perfectly normal...
Best thing to do is quickly change the subject. No relationship talk. Just stay calm and agree (even if he's wrong!), or say "I understand what you are saying." If he still wants a D he will want to fight with you. Don't give him the satisfaction.
Don't file any D paperwork unless you are 100% certain you want it. You can "agree" verbally if he asks about it, but just be too busy to do anything. If he wants the D let him be the one to do everything.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Okay. Just thinking but feel free to 2x4 if you want.
H refuses to go to counseling because nothing is wrong with him. Which I think is funny, because counseling is not about there being something wrong with you, it's about learning how to do things better. So he refuses. By refusing to go, is he determined to sabotage the relationship. If he's not willing to do or try something different, he is willing to condemn us to do again the things we have done in the past. Does that make sense? It means he's not willing to grow as a person. He is willing to always do what he always did and therefore so must I. I wonder if he wants to do nothing or not change so that I can make the same mistake again and then he can keep drinking and being the victim. As long as he refuses to try something different or grow as a person, expand his horizons, whatever you want to call it, it means he is happy with the status quo. He is happy with my track record and not willing to look inside himself for change because it is all my fault anyway.
Does any of that make sense? It's like he's setting me up to fail.
Mel
"Standing knee deep in a river and dying of thirst."
I can say that drinking is a choice you make. I quit on my own. Are there times when I want to hit the bar again, Yes there are especially when times are tense with my wife. But I choose not to because I know what problems it caused to get to this point. My wife still wants out but for more reasons than my drinking the past 11 years. Its also because she just wants someone different. But none the less, choosing to drink or not is a choice you make each day. How you handle your stress or happiness is a choice you make. I haven't figured out how to be happy yet with my situation, but I have chosen not to drink to esacpe.
Kevin
Me 36, W 37 M: 08/02/97 D13, D9 1st Bomb 02/08 Reconciled 04/08 2nd Bomb: 09/08 W filed for D 02/04/09 Separated 03/09 D dismissed 06/09/09 Still separated...
On the AA issue, let me chime in a few words, Grew up with a highly functioning brilliant father, alcoholic. But there is such a thing as a "dry alcoholic" who stops drinking, somehow, often cold turkey. Does NO introspection about why they drank, learns nothing about how they should cope with stress in the future, gets no tools for the future, but declares themselves "cured" or obviously NOT an alcoholic, b/c they stopped drinking!
But their odd behaviors, overreactions, tempers/ mood swings, and conflict avoidance usually remain, as they really have not been "treated". Don't minimize it.
The thing you have some control over is what the causes were for your straying. Loneliness is an obvious one. I'm female, but I'm also a veteran myself and a wife of a former officer as well. So I've seen it from both sides, the deployed and the left behind. I deeply resented H's "tasks" when he was away, and I never did that to him. Somehow the kids were my responsibility even when I was gone, making arrangements long distance... But I digress. You hit a nerve in me when I read that he was deployed, b/c it's like men who cheat on pregnant wives...you just don't do it.
But then I reallzed I was oversimplifying things from a soldier's perspective. The military families do NOT get the type of support they need. As a commander's wife, it sucks b/c you had to do the notifications for casualties, MIA, etc. You also saw the things the families went through stateside, and never told the soldiers, so as not to worry them...including a very sick child, the death of a sister, and it's harder than civilians realize. And no one really supports the commander's wife, as she is there to support them, even when she is also an officer...and a mom and a wife...
Why can't you GAL, be pleasant, "listen like a lover" (My db coach's advice and it ain't easy, but it IS simple) and start moving on?
He'll see that you aren't immediately in the arms of another man, and a loving mother--who isn't moved by that? In my heart, there are only two possibilities in him. First, he may want out of the M because he doesn't want to do the work it takes to re-build trust, and you'll frown on his drinking, and this gives him an excuse to quit the M. Plus, his pride is huge. The more people who know of the A, the harder it is for a man to take a woman back. too bad. Most of the h's don't look within, to see their own role in the A, whereas women who's h's cheat, usually wonder if they played a part in it. Plus women take their h's back more often. Then again, it is usually loneliness in a m that makes a w cheat, whereas some men just do it for a sexual thing and admit that it "meant nothing" to them...whatever that means. (Sorry if that was sexist, but I'm sexist whenever it's convenient, like trash night, scary noises downstairs, etc. Hope you understand).
The other possibility is that he wants to get back together but he doesn't want to be hurt again. I lean toward this one, but don't know the role of the drinking. (Many men choose drugs or alcohol over families, without ever truly realizing it.)
He'd love to trust you again and move forward, but is terrified of letting his guard down. ANd his anger at what you "deserve" as punishment seems acceptable and when the anger is recent, it's hard to see that whenever we discuss what our spouses "deserve" or "lessons to teach them" we are not coming from a place of love, but we are being punitive. Does that get us to our goal of recon? NO, it does not.
Your h thinks of OM and it punches him in the stomach. He wonders why you did this since, after all, he was no longer drinking....but what if he somehow, knew, you'd stay faithful? What would it take? Have you asked him? Well, would that solve everything? Do you lose the right to complain about anything,from now on, b/c you "sinned"? As if he was perfect? I have to say that despite my m's problems and we are in piecing, there are times I feel I have more "rights" now, since h was the WAS and I took him back. I know how that sounds, but it's a deeply rooted feeling that since I was the wronged party, he "owes me"... Hey, I'm working on it.
I urge you to spend the money to talk to a DB counselor. I had a t, and about 3 c's and went to mc with h. Just could not reach him for so long. Loved all the t's and c's, But DB coach gave me specifics I needed and is probably the biggest reason we are still m. In piecing.
It's well worth the money. You need some rules and boundaries b/c no matter what else here, your A is not the only thing going on here. It's just the easiest to blame a divorce on. On the money issue--it's significant. Control, respect, priorities... I'm not into "he can give away FAMILY money without discussion with you" when you both work (even if you were a stay at home mom) AND you have children...are their college funds full? Are the vacations taken care of? I think a guy who has been gone from his family so much, owes THEM his time and provisions....now, if we're talking about a life saving surgery for a brother, that's one thing.
But I wonder about a possible need to be the hero to others, and lend them money that is rightfully the "real" family's--his wife and kids--not other adults who shouldn't be mooching.....well, examine his real motives. Does he want to rescue them and be a hero, or is it legit? Did he give you an equal vote in the matter? If not, that's a huge signal about your m, regardless of the damn A. Also tells you that he might make it so hard to come back that it isn't worth it.[i] Honestly, sometimes the betrayed spouse ends up in an effort "to rebuild trust" putting so many conditions on the M and the WAS, that a return is virtually guaranteed to fail. Everyone loses then, especially the kids. Instead, think of What a legacy the kids, and others, could see from you two, working it out, loving unconditionally through the heat of the hottest fire, and forgiving...and recommitting...LOVING again, that's a legacy worth leaving...[/i]
Last but not least, why'd you have the first and last affairs? Why won't you do it again? Why should he trust that part? I get the lonelieness part, big time. That's why you join every flippin' club you can, and audition for theater, or take classes, so you can meet interesting adults and get that kind of stimulation, in an environment that does NOT lead to A...
Good luck, wishing you well... j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
