STEPPING out...

[CMNM]

Julie,
I think I may have gone a little high on the hours. Probably closer to 12. I feel silly for being so weird about this, but I am! Do you have TP's email? She may still have mine.....

Pam

[cagzmom]

no i dont............ how will we figure this one out??

[cagzmom]

reading trustings post and it puts thought in my head.

dark works (it seems) to HEAL the heart of the LBS. In the beginning i remember wanting to be dark to make him miss me - or notice that i din' need him or whatever. NOW I see that what it does is helps the heart heal.

Whenever I see x my mind wants to play a game. It works on my heart and tries to tell it different things. NOT the truth of who he is right now-- it says "he was so wonderful. He was your best friend. He did love you...etc etc." That doesn't help healing...it keeps you stuck.

Being stuck is different than standing. Standing means beleiving and staying open to the return. I do believe - and I am still standing. BUT no longer am I letting myself stay stuck. I AM GROWING. I AM HEALING. I like who I am becoming and that is a first!!

All my life I have struggled with insecurity. Through my marriage i battled it. Battled "Who am i" and all those wonderful growing painful thougths. WHENEVER I would find myself - grow and LIKE what was going on in MY portion of OUR marriage he would MOVE me. THEN I would have to recreate me again.... (we moved like 20 times in 20 years...in the last 10 I would say we moved maybe 5 times that really affected my life..)

So now I have been in counseling for 2 years. I know what I like to eat, I know who I am a little better, I am learning to laugh again, I am stronger, I can drive places and get lost and find my way out WITHOUT X. I LIKE becoming an independent person...I like not hurting anymore.

Do I still dream of restoration of course. BUT it doesnt' define me anymore. This great devotional I am reading brought up something that i had forgotten... God has a plan for me (i got that one) but here is the best part HE DOESNT NEED MY HELP to MANIPULATION/CONTROL OR FIGURE OUT how or what He is going to do. He truly has it handled!!

My job is to keep Him #1 totally. #1 as my Provider, Friend, Confidant...all of it. XH is not suppose to consume the parts of my life WHERE GOD should be first.

Sorry to ramble.....just lots of thoughts...

[CMNM]

Hey Julie.

Not rambling thoughts...good thoughts! I have thought about getting some of mine down lately- I have started a journal that I am trying really hard to keep full of positive things. I have made notations of text messages and things like that- I think it is good for me to really study what is going on. I am one of those people who can be terribly mad at someone but with one good interaction..poof..all better. I don't learn a lot of lessons that way!

I understand the games your mind wants to play. I am sure that is why I have such a tough time. Example- as I told you, I went on a "date" last weekend with X. It was actually very fun, and ended with some hot car smooching that went on for what seemed like ages. Since then, I saw him 2 more times during the week. I have also been on the receiving end of many texts-- (ex) late Thursday night: Goodnight, baby, and then a morning greeting first thing on Friday. Sounds nice, right?

Well.....then lets take into account that he called here last night to pick something up out of the garage. He said that he didn't have time to stop, he was running late, but didn't want to scare me. Sure enough, 10 minutes later I heard the garage door open. He took his items and took off.

Now really, who doesn't have a minute to open the door and yell hello? Not necessarily to me, but one of the kids was at home. I could never begin to imagine being in that close proximity to one of my children and not saying hello and grabbing a hug. And, when I see that it is ok with him it really lessens his appeal to me.

So far haven't heard a thing from him. So, then I sit here and wonder why the date, why the texts? And, worst of all, I get mad at myself for wondering or caring at all.

I guess that was a long way of saying, yes, darkness stops the mindgames and helps the heart to heal.

I don't want to keep feeling like this. The worst part is that I constantly doubt myself. As in, "what did I do wrong this time?" That is no way to live, is it Julie? I like your way- slowly finding yourself again. It is something that I need to do more of, and I need to keep using the short leash my X keeps me on as an excuse.

Actions, not words are what is needed in my sitch. I am tired of the words. Really, really tired.

Well, better get outta my pj's! Yeah, it's after 1 and here I am still drinking coffee. Lots of snow happened/is happening, and it is a good day to be lazy. I hate snow!!!!!!!!!!

[cagzmom]

Hey Pam .. First and foremost I must say.. SNOW STINKS!! tee hee...I do NOT miss it not one bit!!

Ok Ok onto my latest apithany (cant spell it). Ok. SO.....

I had this talk with myself today... (i do that often ha!!) Through this my sister (and so other real friends) will be REAL REAL straight with me when I have asked so many of the "why" questions.. So listen to what my mind did..
Now remember I just saw x last night to pick up d12. Seeing him triggers teh questions because he acts so normal, so comfortable.. so here goes the mind.. "why can he be so at ease? if we get along so well what is the problem, where did it fall - why doesn't he want to be here.." then the shift... "You know why Cagzmom, he doesn't want to be married. Sure he wants to feel good, he wants benefits of relationship...but he does NOT want to do what it takes nor what you deserve."

then I asked myself the true question...You see I can get along with him, I can joke with him and all that. And that is what is NOT good for me..that is when I start the "Why and the What if's"... So I asked me...Cagzmom if you asked him to go out ot dinner - or to stop over for whatever what is it that you really want from him.... My HONEST true answer? To be my husband, the father to my children and a participant in a family he helped create.... Then I realized...he can't do that because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to be put in a "box" where he isn't free to run - where he isn't free to make selfish descions and choices. He WANTS to be all about himself....and by being single it is the ONLY way he can get all that he wants.. and that is anything that X wants for himself.

My x was ALWAYS selfcentered ALWAYS. AND that has NOT changed... The WORST fights/arguments that we had were always because he woudln't budge or do something for anyone that didn't affect him in some way. Oh he would tell you different...and yes he did do many wonderful family things..but see it was because it was stuff HE WANTED TO DO. Right now he is all about HIMSELF...

The words Pam - they really do mean nothing. Wasn't it you that told me that your x had been a master manipulator? (my x's own words for himself). WORDS come easy, especially for someone that has learned how to use them. ACTIONS are the things that catch us by surprise.. the things where words weren't used and low and behold TA DAH!! YOU DESERVE ACTION enough of the back and forth.

Where do YOU want to be in a year?!! I know where I Want to be....of course I would love for x and I to be "dating" and working our way back...that would be a dancing moment. But it is time for me to do what is best for me....waiting for him to wakeup is NOT good for my heart.

Do I miss him? OF COURSE!
Do I love him? Always.
Does God desire reconciliation - always.

The kicker... I am only in control of Cagzmom. Cagzmom is going to keep goign to counseling to heal the broken little girl that got married 20+ years ago. Cagzmom is going to keep going with God. Cagzmom is going to forgive.

I hope you are well..and wow this was really long

[CMNM]

Julie,
Yes, indeed, snow stinks. I hate the stuff. And right now there is lots of it out there to hate. And to shovel. Ugh.

Speaking of, XH was here earlier. He offered to shovel the driveway for me, and I declined. I said I would take care of it. he said he didn't mind...I still said no. I said I could handle it myself. He very seriously told me, "I know you can handle it. That was one of our problems. I want to take care of you, and you would never let me. I need to be able to do that."

I have no idea what to do with that one. Actually, the thought of a man who needs to take care of a woman scares me a bit. I immediately thought of a guy friend who said (and sadly he wasn't joking), "I swear, I am always looking for the divorced moms that make under $20,000 a year..." Yep, he wanted to be the rescuer, too. And Julie, I just don't think that I want to put myself in the position of needing to be rescued! I have come too far to ever be dependent on anyone else again.

I did assure XH that I appreciated the things that he did, (he said he knew that I did), but told him that I knew he was very busy and I didn't like to add to that. He said he never agrees to do more than he can, and that he likes to be busy. So, I will have to think this over some more. Regardless, I will be shoveling the driveway in the morning.

Oh, and no, I wouldn't have ever referred to him as a master manipulator. I don't really think of him in that way. But, this is why I keep ending up shocked at the things he does! I am just dumb when it comes to him, I swear. I mean, for all I know, he is one of those guys seeing someone seriously and just stringing me along. I have seen it happen here (on the BB) so many times. There are situations that I think have a great chance of working out, and then eventually the whole thing falls apart and the H finds an OW, or worse yet, there was one in place the whole time.

I think that letting my guard down is getting to be a near impossibility. Do you find it to be the same for you? I am getting to the point that I don't know if I would trust anything "good" said to me. I wonder if I will forever be waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Really, though, my XH's problem mainly seems to center around depression. Problem is, I am getting tired of using it as an excuse for his behavior. At what point does someone get help? Our kids are just getting older- growing up without a dad around. But, I am not depressed, so I guess it is not my place to judge. I decide what I would do with my kids from a healthy place--- I can't compare his decisions since they come from a place of illness. It sounds in a way you have come to the same kind of conclusions. You see how your XH has always been selfish and will probably not be who it is you need. Good for you Julie--- so different from all of us who first come on this BB wanting nothing more than the marriage back--- we will make those puzzle pieces fit if it kills us! Thank goodness for us that it didn't work that way. We both had lots of growing to do- and though this isn't the way I wanted to go about it, well, I am thankful for the changes I have made. As you should be also.

You sure do have a great attitude. I am really impressed with you. Keep having those talks with yourself- they are doing wonders!

Have a great rest of the weekend!

P.S. I heard it was very warm down there today. Unfair!!!

[cagzmom]

Pam- hmm lots to ponder from what you have written. Lots.

My x. Along with being self centered there was the other parts of him - the kind, warm, gentle guy..he still exsists within' x -and my hope is that someday he will break through. BUT for now he the other side of him is more alive.

My x too suffers with depression...deep depression (remember he attempted suicide). Have you ever watch this show called "Intervention". It is really for alcoholics and drug addicts..but the concept is the same and the co-dependant issues IDENTICAL. there are those who believe in the "problem child/father/husband", those who are done with them and there is always the one who continues to rescue them...steps in when they are down, helps fix problems that the addict created. What I have seen on that show is that the rescuer continually keeps the addict from facing what they have become and where they are in life. By trying to help them - all they do is hurt them...because teh addict isn't getting better.

That is how I feel about depression. I TOO have suffered with deep depression. I was on meds. I wanted to kill myself. I didn't want to get out of bed - and all of it. This was several years ago - xh came home from work and said "this is enough..you need to get help..." and I did. At the time the meds was all I did...and it did help. BUT WHEN DEPRESSION hit AGAIN (after the bomb) I CHOSE yes I CHOSE to stay in counseling. I CHOSE to face all of the pain and darkness inside of me..... YES I WAS DEPRESSED -deeply...but I chose to get help.

My x has gone to counseling to face this... but he always and i mean ALWAYS stops. After his suicide attempt he went 2 times. Since then (it was a year ago) he has maybe gone a handful of times. This past fall his mother offered to pay so he would go...yet he still didn't go!

I have had many friends commit suicide.. So yes I believe that depression is an illness. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE that if you need meds and also get counseling you can come through HEALTHY and HAPPY and FUNCTIONAL!

Sorry about that but my x has used depression so much it just gets me a little riled up.

My parents have been married for almost 50 years. No affairs (i know one almost started but mom quit her job to get aways). There was lots of garbage - lots of it..but they have made it. I have asked them about stuff..even about what you said about your x wanting to "take care" of you.

Pam - it is in mans nature to be "the man". The provider/protector. That is a good thing. It doesn't make you less or him more - it just is allowing him to be who God intended him to be. Shoot girl if you X (think about that) your X husband wants to give you help with shoveling LET him. How does it hurt you. Let me explain something Else..

When I lived in the midwest I was the one who shoveled, mowed did all that stuff. I moved 7 ton of rock in a wheel barrow by myself. I did tons of physical stuff by myself. Why? Cause x worked and I thought it was right....still think PARTNERSHIP is the right thing. However.......my x would DRIVE down the driveway and pack down the snow that I would have to shovel (see it didn't affect him he could get out). My x would sit and watch tv while I moved teh rock............ See? taht was a bit messed up. But I was like you "I can do this...its no big deal."

Well when I moved to NC it was different.. Men automatically open the door for you (Almost every where!) I was trying to move a filing cabinet at work and 2 guys said "hey we can get that for you.." I was going to carry this really heavy box of envelopes up these stairs... A guy came over and said "hey let me do that.." See it is NATURAL for a TRUE MAN to want to be RESPECTFUL. Does that make any sense?

I really think I need to go back and read your earlier post - cause I dont really understand/know what happened in your stitch. Wierd huh?

Dont get me wrong Pam. I DO want my x back. (talk wiht C about it all the time.) I just know that he doesn't want to come back. I know that he doesn't want to be married. ME? Yep love him. Want to be married.

again - it was a ramble day - sorry.

[CMNM]

Julie,

First off, quit apologizing for "rambling." You are doing no such thing. These are the conversations I miss with Mer and Betsey. I like reading what you have to say, and by no means has anything been a ramble. Actions, babe! That's what we decided this is all about. Yes, the words need to come first. It would only be a ramble if actions did not follow the words. And, I don't peg either of us for those kind of girls!

We are in total agreement about the depression issue. I do have a rule, however, to try not to say what I would do if in someone else's shoes. So, thank you for sharing your experiences. You have given me a new perspective to think about.

Ugh, don't waste your time looking thru my old threads! Quick recap:
Married young, had first child within 1 year. Like you, moved a lot; we never had family around us. Everything we did we did on our own. And, understandably, I did not trust anyone to take care of my children. So, I would have to say that my world was centered around them and my H felt neglected.

I was what I thought was the perfect wife! There was always a nice dinner waiting for him when he came home from work. The house was decorated nicely and the kids were dressed in the latest fashions. I am not a real big spender- I pride myself on living well within my means.

First problem- I left college to marry. I had no idea how much this weighed on my XH. Truth is, I am one of those people made for school- my learning style makes it really easy for me. So, he felt guilty that I was helping him earn his degree while I did nothing about mine.

Biggest problem- about 7-8 years into our marriage he cheated on me. Not a one-night stand, but a full blown relationship. It came out later that he did not feel apprecitated or liked by me. Looking back, I can understand this. I am not one of those warm and fuzzy people- (except for with my children), and I WAS extremely sarcastic. Plus, I was wrapped up in my little world with the kids. No, I am not making excuses for him. It was wrong, plain and simple. He should have spoken to me. He says he tried, but that I always had excuses for things or turned it into a shouting match. (true, true)

Anyway, the worst was yet to come. In my head, we were married for life, so I continuously rubbed that affair in his face. I did not work towards understanding or forgiveness- instead I used it each time I felt I could work it to my advantage. At the same time, my self esteem was not what I portrayed. I think that I simply sucked the life out of the guy. I was needy, but bitchy all at the same time. If he had a complaint about me, well, I held all the cards..."YOU had an affair," I would say. I had no interest in changing. Why should I? Essentially I felt he was a hostage.

As you can imagine, things got worse. He absorbed himself in his own activities (stayed away from other women), and I guess I didn't really even notice. All I wanted was to hear that I was pretty or smart or whatever, and that he was faithful. Of course, that stuff stopped being said. How could he even see me in that way? I can't blame him. I wanted respect and love without ever earning it.

Fast forward...of course someone popped into my life who began saying all those things that I wanted to hear. I began a short relationship that XH found out about. He immediately asked for a divorce. I know, I know..how could I do such a thing after experiencing it myself? I studpidly told myself that it was ok because i did not love this person, I only loved my H. And, since I made that clear to the OP, well, I guess I figured it wasn't that bad...

After that, we went back and forth until H moved out. He said that he needed to in order to save us. I don't really think that he ever really tried, though. We did a short lived stint with counseling, but the C caught onto his depression (bad, bad childhood) and said that she needed to work with him before she could work with US. I know now that it was a mistake to listen to that. I stopped going, and he later turned that around and said that I thought that I had no problems and it was HE who needed to be fixed. I really did want us to begin to work together eventually, but the C had lots of health issues and ended up taking a leave of absense. So, there went that.

Like I said, that is it in a nutshell. I take full responsibility for my part in all of this. And, I have changed a lot of things. For ME, mind you. I guess that was part of finally going back to school. I did it for me. I needed to like and respect myself, and performing so well in school helped that along. I used to be a big flirt--- I needed that kind of attention-- but for the first time I finally realized I needed earned attention, FROM MY H. In the past, the words were empty because I knew I didn't earn them. Does that make sense?

Add to all of this that I am a talker and he is sooooooo very quiet and introspective. I think fast and the words are out of my mouth before I have fully thought them through. He, on the other hand, will think about things for days...usually then deciding on a course of action (or inaction) without ever articulating any of the process that got him there. That is hard for me.

We are tryihg hard to learn to communicate, but we both have these huge walls up. He says that if he never gets close to me I can never hurt him again. As for me, since I regarded him as the most honest person I knew...well, finding out he was capable of lying like he was has made me question things much more than I am comfortable with. I don't want to worry about where he is, who he is with. There would have to be full disclosure on his part if this could ever work. You can probably recall that I questioned that in our "Is it doable" game. He said that he can be totally honest with me. Unfortunately, there are things that make me not completely buy into this.

OK, I won't take up more of your thread. Sorry I did so to this extent. I just wanted you to have the background as we continue our talks.

Oh, and as for the snow shoveling. IT SUCKS! I am about to go back out. Yes, I understand his need to be "the man," and I don't want to take that away from him. I think that since all I hear about is how tired he is, how busy he is, etc., well, I just don't want to deal with it. And, truth be told, he can be unreliable. So, just when I start to allow myself to depend on him, well, I can end up screwed. So, it is best if I do things myself. But, I do need to think about what you said. If I am honest, I know that my wall is way up because of what I perceive as a slight from him regarding something else. So, I have thrown myself back into "Super Woman" mode. I know I am wrong for putting 2 totally unrelated situations together. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

So, what you are saying is that chivalry is alive and well in NC? Wow. Warm weather and that, too. Sounds like heaven!

OK, now, more about you. Sorry for such a hijack!

Hugs!

[scrappy]

Your sitch sounds so very very similar to my own. My stbx filed for d in June 2008. Since that time we have come along ways in terms of being friends again, talking, loving. He still wants the d though. There is no OW. The "other thing" in his life is his alcohol. His drinking has really escalated over the past year and I would now say that I think he is an alcoholic. He pretty much just stays in the house and drinks. He just sold his business and has made minimal to no attempts in finding work in his field (or any other field...). So I, too, feel like he is leaving me for his alcohol. I, also, think he is in the midst of a MLC. He blames me for all of the financial issues we have had over the years. I certainly contributed, but it definitely takes two! Anyway, I am trying to work on myself and stand for the restoration of my marriage. This is an easy thing to say, but very hard to do. What really does standing look like? I am still trying to figure that out. I am very worried about his drinking and the impact I am sure it is having on his health. I wonder how much I should get involved. I did write a letter to his mother about it and spoke with his brother. They do not live close so there would have been no way they would know he was having a problem if I hadn't told them. My stbx doesn't answer his phone, so he never talks to his family. He will only answer if it's his good friend, D, his kids (most of the time) and me (sometimes). It would probably be hard to not look like I cared and that I was chasing if I really got involved with this. I know you can't make them stop, or make them get help or make them do anything for that matter, but it is hard to just sit back and do nothing. Any thoughts on how much to intervene with his drinking? Is your X still drinking? Does he appreciate the impact it had or is having on his life and those around him?

[cagzmom]

So today was my sons 20th birthday. Last year I sent x a text...just a wow hes 19. This year nothing. Not going to engage him.... he doesnt give a crap anyway.

Also- had to make a HUGE step for myself. He has become a dead beat dad--- going tomorrow to child recovery. He is thousands behind and my savings is now low enough that it matters... can't do this anymore. it is time he be held accountable. I even gave him an out 2 months ago -- even in that he blew me off and did his own thing. He has officially pushed me in a corner.... time for me to stand on my own.

After tomorrow the state will file a motion to intervene...they will take my court case number and move forward to take care of my little family. again I say this -- it will literally be out of my hands.

he has put me in this position. probably on the top 5 of hardest things i have had to do in the past 2 years..lets see.
1) move out of my house,pack it all up etc. BY MYSELF and officially moved out on my birthday.
2) had to deal directly with the friends who had sold us the home on contract - i had to give the keys back to them - he did nothing
3) had to sit with him in the hospital for 3 days while he was in ICU after his suicide attempt - then proceeded to pick him up from psych. TO BE THROWN away again that very next day.
4)left me with a car with over 216000 miles on it
5) left me to handle the tears of his children

that is just some..... this is who he is.... this is the true SELF of a MLC'r. this is the truth of a person who will NOT look at themselves...they run and in the dust the after effects.

i am fearful of what he will do. what? dont know...but i dont think he will just lay down to this one..



Are they messed up in the head? MOST DEFINATELY