I can tell you for sure from my own sit that the awkwardness goes away. I mean my W and I are no where near any reconciliation, but at least now we can spend good chunks of time together just laughing and having fun, whereas just a few months ago all we could do around each other was be awkward and silent. We still fight (just did today), but I think that's because of a lot of unresolved feelings. So, I think that yes the awkwardness can go away in all situations, you just have to be willing to work on it. We do have control over our feelings; I believe that to be 100% true. Good luck. WP
I really like the way you put this. "I think he WANTS to want me". That sums up perfectly how I see my wife. I've come to see that it's impossible for our spouses to get to the point where they really do want us as long as the OP is in the picture. Everyone here has told me as much, and based on what I see and hear at home, I believe it.
I to am not a model DBer. My wife's EA really started Jan or FEB of 2008, and despite what she's said, has been going on ever since. With respect to the two schools of thought here, zero tolerance vs: outlast the OP, I too am leaning toward the zero tolerance option. My self respect is pretty much in tatters for having let things go as far as they have. It's really a matter of personal choice and what you think will work in your personal situation, I guess. I go round and round and see nothing left to loose in my case.
I'm updating my thread tomorrow hopefully w/ all the details and a plea for advise. If you get the time, I'd like to hear you thoughts.
Runningoutoftime - I realize I worded my previous post poorly. It wasn't me, but my H who said that he thinks that if he could have feelings for another person, that we should not be together. I personally don't think that is necessarily the case. I've seen enough of human nature and realize how complex relationships are, especially marriages and that people are not perfect. I am willing to move past that and work on us and the future.
But he claims that he doesn't feel the right way for me. And he's only interested in doing things as a family, the 3 of us, but not as a couple. He hasn't wanted to really spend alone time with me. And certainly no sex and no affection. So I agree with him, yes, if he does not want sex and affection, then he doesn't love me the right way anymore.
When I mentioned to a good friend of mine that it seems like he's afraid of closeness/intimacy with me, like he's afraid to even try, she said perhaps he isn't afraid of getting close to me, but what he's afraid of is realizing just how much of his feelings for me aren't there anymore. Like if we have sex, he will realize that he really can't stand me that way anymore. Right now, he can say he still loves me (and I believe him), , but he's loving me at arms length. But what if we try to get close and he then realizes "wow, things are really dead between us." Maybe he's not ready to face that reality?
I just cannot fathom that if you still love someone, even if it might not be the right way, if you are interested in working on things, that you would not offer up some kind of affection/cuddling, etc. Whatever you did before the problems started. The lack of affection/sex really has me scared that he is done, really done with me.
It's not that I really am ready to leave, I just don't know how much more of just being friends I can take. Affection and sex are pretty important to me and there has been none of that between us since April, and he moved out in May. To me, if you are working on things, then you are also having affection and sex.
JohnnyZ - With my H, I agree with you, our self-respect does take a beating. For myself, I personally would like to adopt the Zero Tolerance school of thought. I have found I just have not been strong enough and I am not sure why. Some days I think I can't put up with this for another second and then other days, I think, just give it another month, etc. My friends think it is because I have low self esteem. In my H's case, I don't think there is a specific OP, but I often think H may be "looking" or maybe looking is not even the right word, but if he's hanging out one-on-one with other women, he's spending energy cultivating other relationships instead of putting the energy into us. And I don't see how we can work then, I just don't.
And I just don't think if we just sit back and "wait" for them to come out of the fog, they can learn to appreciate what they have/had, if they know it is just sitting there waiting for them. And if we are sitting here waiting for them to decide they want to come back to us, then aren't we really saying "okay, I am willing to be 'second best.'"???????? And perhaps they lose some respect for us as well.
I think it's normal to go back and forth on how you want to handle things. At least I hope it is. Some days I feel really good, like I can go on for a long time, and others I just can't see lasting another day. I've been trying to identify what gives me the good, positive feelings and do more of that. I hate feeling negative about anything.
I also hate the thought of being the backup plan or the safety net. That really gets me worked up when I think about it.
And I couldn't agree with you more about no sex or affection of any kind. I just don't see how you can start to piece a marriage back together without those things. Maybe it just takes time for them to be ready.
JohnnyZ - I posted on your thread in newcomers. Unfortunately, I don't have much to offer, advice or support-wise regarding your situation. All I can say is I understand how you feel as I feel the same. I am really getting close to my breaking point and today am just sick to my stomach about the whole mess. In my situation, I guess there haven't been enough "crumbs" or whatever you want to call them for me to have much hope or feel like there's any point in hanging in there anymore waiting to see if he wants to work on our marriage. Hanging out together may have been a step in the right direction, but after 6-8 months, and we're still as distant, if not more distant than we were when we first split. Well, that just not good. Not good at all. And I feel our separation may have actually been the nail in the coffin. How did you word things - dying from benign neglect? That about describes it perfectly. When you're together, but not together, you lose so much everyday contact with the person. You don't call eachother about the silly little things you used to because of the emotional distance. You don't share funny emails anymore (at least we don't.) Everyone tiptoes around the pink elephant in the room and doesn't discuss it. Meanwhile, not discussing it is causing more of a rift. It is just insane. And there are so many other little things. We just lose touch when the person is not part of our every day lives. For my H and I, I think the separation was a big big mistake. I think it has destroyed us. But then again probably not. We were already dead before, according to him. How can a marriage be dead and only one person see it?
I'm sorry you had such a bad day yesterday. I wish there was something to say to make it better.
When you reach the breaking point, do you intend to file for a divorce yourself?
I just have one thought for you. I think it's possible that your husband truly doesn't know what he wants, even after all this time. If he truly believes your marriage is dead, why is he still hanging around? I don't know what the divorce laws are like in your state, but if he definitely wanted one, I think he would be pursuing it now. But he's still around, at least to some degree. I know it's totally unacceptable to you in it's present form, but there may yet be a chance for you. I have no idea how to start bringing him back into your marriage. When only one person seems committed, it seems impossible, I know. But maybe something will come along. Whatever you choose to do, make sure it leaves you feeling good about yourself.
Do you have a good support network of family and friends you can talk with? I hope so. I think it helps to keep posting here and venting. I've gotten a lot of good advice here, advice that has yielded some results. I also keep a journal, which helps me feel better too.
Like I said, no real answers, just offering a little support and encouragement. Keep posting.
John, thanks for your posts. I do believe that he doesn't know what he wants. And this is scary if you think about it. Because we have a child together, a beautiful house and other assets together, families together, a LIFE of 20 years together. But he still doesn't know what he wants. All of these reasons to be with me, and he doesn't know if he wants to be with me or not. To me, that means that his feelings for me really are NOT there. Big Time. Because if they were, it would be a no-brainer that he would come back home. Right?
Now we're in this difficult place because we play family some of the time, and then he goes home and it is single mom and single dad time again. All the while, there is no husband and wife time. None. So I feel the rift is getting larger and larger. And because of his remark a few months ago that he "didn't feel that way with me." when I tried to hold his hand, and now 5 months later, he still doesn't want to hold my hand, etc. Five months of hanging out and he still doesn't feel the right way.
And so if he doesn't feel the right way towards me, then, is there really any other option other than to split up? All the other reasons to stay together mean squat, if the right loving feelings aren't there. And of course I don't mean sparklers, etc. We're mature enough to know that is not reality, especially after 20 years. But to at least want to hold me and cuddle me, and maybe work towards having a sexual relationship again. But there is none of that. Nothing in 5 months of hanging out. I feel that he knows deep in his heart that it is over, but he's afraid to admit it, because once he admits it out loud, there's no going back. He knows I will not stick around.
Why hasn't he filed for D yet? Because we have no money for one thing. And two, because, again, divorce is so final. Once we start saying the D word, the ballgame is going to change for us. And again, I'm afraid he's not quite ready to end things. I am a safety net to a degree. We can still keep our psueudo-family together, as long as we live in limbo.
There's another little twist to things here. I am the breadwinner, and he's dependent on me financially and for health ins. I wonder if that factors in here. He will have to find another occupation and I know he doesn't want to.
I know that there are many people on here who would say I've not given it near enough time, but I love him too much to live life like this. I feel like if I didn't care, then I could go on indefinitely,
What are your thoughts on my thoughts? Does this make sense at all?
What your saying makes perfect sense to me. It's exactly what I live day to day. The reasons you sight about why he hasn't filed for divorce all make sense. What does he say about moving forward one way or another? Does he seem willing to continue in the limbo you're in indefinitely?
I'm sure it's scary for him to think about leaving since you are the breadwinner. That's a practical consideration he must have thought of. Has he ever had a problem with this? Unfortunately, this is a BIG problem for a lot of men. It seems to eat at their self esteem, which gets turned around on the women they love. Which is of course complete crap and the mans issue, not yours. I just bring it up because I think it is common.
Next point, one I'm sure you've read many times on these boards, and one that's proven true in my case. I couldn't tell from your earlier posts, but is he still actively involved in an EA? What your writing sounds like he is, it sounds like my wife and like so many others here. And if that's the case, I believe there is little hope for the two of you as long as someone else is in the picture. I believe that is exactly what is going on with me.
My wife is an extremely intelligent woman, great job, practical etc. And one day she meets this guy who for some reason makes her see the fireworks you mention. Now she tells me she has to feel that every minute of every day or at least be searching for it. This is a 41 year old woman. And how's this for strange. She and this 55 year old man e-mail each other in baby talk! I STG. This is one powerful drug, I think, and I just don't get it. If your husband is also on this drug, I think it's more than enough for him to turn away from the wonderful life he has with you.
This is why I feel the need to issue an ultimatum to my wife. I don't see us going anywhere unless she wakes up and realizes what this will cost her. Sounds like you are in about the same place. I see TINY improvements here and there, and as long as I see them, I'm holding off on the big guns. But I think about it every day.
Final thoughts. However things go with your marriage, YOU WILL BE FINE! You are the one who still has her head screwed on straight, you have a job and are able and willing to care for your son. You are expending all your energy and time trying to make your marriage work. At the end of the day, you can hold your head high and be proud of yourself for fighting the good fight.
I'm sure you've been told this many times but try not to do anything rash when your feeling especially stressed. That's the time to step back and do nothing in my opinion. Calm down, straighten out, talk with friends and family. Give yourself plenty of time. I've violated that rule several times and the results were not good.
John, thank you so much for taking the time to post to me. I've really been a basket case lately and it helps to talk to someone else going through this. All of my friends of course tell me he is stringing me along because he doesn't want to lose his safety net, this way he's got the best of both worlds, the life of a single guy and the life of a married man, blah blah blah. Of course, I know he's a thinking feeling human being with problems and it is not as black and white as they say, but I do think they are right when they say as long as I allow him to cake eat, he will continue to do so. I have to be very careful with this though because if I issue what sounds like an ultimatum, I have to truly be prepared to let him go. I do think he will let me go if I say I can no longer live like this. Because I don't think he has enough feelings left for me to come back, because I think if he did, he would have come back already. For some reason, if he's telling me the truth about not knowing what he wants, then he's sitting here waiting to see if his feelings "come back." How can they come back if we don't do any husband/wife stuff? I went back and read your newest post and I agree with you. Separations are not good for marriages if they go beyond a few weeks/couple months at the most. We have lost so much that I don't think we can get back. I'm not saying people don't reconcile after a long separation, I just don't think it is likely. Or I should say I don't think it is likely for me and my H because of the dynamics of our relationship. I don't think absence is making the heart grow fonder. We actually always did getter when we spent lots of time together. Kept us emotionally close.
The question of OW is an impossible one to answer unfortunately. I desperately wish I knew. I didn't suspect anything when he left, so it came as a nasty surprise when he confessed to EA three months later. What he told me was he was "friends" with someone (wouldn't name her) and didn't realize he had feelings for her until she said she had feelings for him. He said nothing physical ever happened and nothing ever would. I don't really believe that though.
And I don't know if they maintain their relationship or not. He has been hanging out (and lying to me about it) with a much younger woman. I don't think she's the same person as the one he confessed about. So then I am left thinking he's just plain looking elsewhere to fill this void in his life. The one I can't fill. Of course he claims they are just friends. If I had a dollar for every time someone said "we're just friends," and it turned out to be more than that, I'd be filthy rich! I don't necessarily think their relationship is physical (yet) but is it purely platonic? How likely is that? He's 40, classic MLC and she's 23 and very pretty. Still lives with her parents!!!!!. Is it even possible for a 40 year old man to hang out with a 23 year old (unless she's a relative) and it be 100% purely platonic, no attraction whatsoever on his end??? I just can't believe there's no attraction at all there. And he's very charming and outgoing and handsome. I am sure she responds to it. And I'm sure he eats it up.
Yes, my good friends tell me not to do anything rash when I am upset. But they also tell me I can't go on like this and they are right. The thing is I made up my mind that this had to end before Christmas. I just could take no more lying and sneaking around. But for my son's sake, I decided to get through the holidays together, which I think was a smart move. I think maybe that is what he was doing too. Christmas was extremely difficult for me. And I was hoping he would bring things up after Christmas and let me know where he stands, but so far he hasn't. He hates to have R talks. I do too, but I also hate ignoring issues.
So what is your current relationship with your W? Do you guys do anything as a family? Anything as a couple? Is she affectionate at all? Does she tell you she loves you?
I've probably let my situation go on a lot longer than I should have because I to see my wife a a human being with a number of problems. And I've not been a great husband. She stuck with me through some pretty bad times, and I do feel an obligation to do the same.
I just don't know about the coming back after leaving. There is no doubt in my mind my wife will leave if I demand an end to the EA. The questions I ask is, will she come back when she sees the reality of her situation, and if so, would I want her back.
Reading about your husbands "friend", I don't think he'll ever come around with her in the picture. So back to the original question I guess. Do you try to outlast the OP or demand an end to it or that our spouses leave? I keep waffling back and forth. I know I will be crushed if my wife leaves, and I know she will if I push her. At the same time, it hurts me more and more by the day to live like this. I'm trying to develop a middle ground, not a true ultimatum, and see where that leads. Something like if you are unwilling to end your affair, there is no hope for us and maybe you should consider leaving as I've begun to plan my new life without you.
To answer your question, my wife and I are friendly, no fights. We live in the same house but different bedrooms. We do quite a bit as a family, but nothing as a couple. It has been very awkward when we've tried, which really freaks her out. No affection, closeness or touching. Haven't heard "I love you" since the OM showed up. As a matter of fact, she just says she never loved me and I just don't do it for her. Ouch!
Happy to write. It helps to talk about all this. So are you ready to move forward without him? Has he made ANY effort to come back to you? I think I'm closer than I used to be. It would take way to long to explain, but the end of January is when I'm going to bring this up with her again. She asked me if I wanted to start MC again, and said she was going to start IC to try to sort out her feelings and issues. She took the last half of the month of work to work on this. If it happens, that's good, but I'm not holding my breath. I think we'll end up having that talk. BTW, she thinks I don't know about the ongoing EA. Bringing that up will be a bomb to her.
Keep posting and talking to your friends. It helps a great deal. Have you read DR? I read and reread it as there are points that make so much sense, and I need to keep seeing them when I feel bad.
