Thank you for all your thoughts and wishes!! It really means a lot to me!!
((ali)) thanks for your observations. I was thinking about that too. Like, you and OD get super thoughtful gifts (which would blow me away if it happened to me), Essie is getting superthoughtful gifts AND hot sex, and I am having (or was having) these long meaningful phone conversations which others are jealous of. It's like, each sitch has its own strengths, it's impossible to tell what they will be...
(((essie))) OMG Essie!!!!! you are in singapore??!! and you are posting to me??!! I feel so special!! how do you like singapore? I went there on a visa run from bali in 2005 and everything felt so modern and clean and technological. i wish I could be traveling around southeast asia with you right now!!! It means so much that you've been checking in on me and sending up little prayers!!
(((OD))) your post meant so much to me. thank you thank you thank you. I've been wondering how your christmas was and volunteering at the homeless shelter. Also I want to thank you for your friendship this year, which has been amazing. You were the very first person to post to me a year ago, and you have helped me so much!!!
((Julia)) I was so happy to read your post that you had a good Christmas with your family!!!! When do I get to hear a recording of the surprise DB duet??
(((Kalni))) i hope you are having an amazing trip with your family!!!!
Nothing has happened with B since the conversation I typed about. A good friend of mine gave me some great advice and told me, "You just finished something really big [grad school]. It's time for you to enjoy it. Why don't you take a break from this, for now." But even though I haven't been posting, I have been thinking a LOT about it, so I apologize in advance, this is probably going to be sort of a bombarding post.
I think it was Essie who wrote on her thread that she figured out that what makes her plunge is when she talks about her sitch to people in RL. I've been thinking about that too--since it definitely happened to me! I realized that I thought I was getting more differentiated by dealing with my problems more by myself and processing solo instead of with others. BUT then I realized... isn't that just self-presentation? which is not actually the same as intimacy? instead of compulsively processing everything with everyone and getting in a tailspin about whatever they do or do not tell me, I've been processing by myself, which just means that I don't give myself a chance to be rejected or judged by others. I think that's why I had to take a break from the board, because I felt so discouraged by Jeff and Kalni's observations. I guess I'm a step farther along in that now I can actually CHOOSE whether or not to share something with others, but still not at the point where I'm willing to risk showing all of myself (being intimate) and really not caring how others react. DAMN!!! I thought I had come so far!!!
I tried to think about what I "did" that triggered his response, other than making a sort of grand/ridiculous gesture with my offer for Lunch in Maine. Well, I DID have contact with him 5 times in 7 days, which I think is completely unprecedented. Also at the end of a few of our recent conversations I pressed him for reassurance (twice) that I could talk to him about my plans for the future, and also pressed him for reassurance that I'd actually be able to see him in NYC in January. This is all "different" behavior from me, not as cool as before.
Honestly (I know others will disagree with me here) I am not completely sure what message B was trying to send me. Some have told me it is obvious he is not interested, others have said it is really ambiguous. Clearly, there is at least one obstacle to him wanting to be with me right now. Why did he tell me what he was feeling, instead of making an excuse or blowing me off via text? If he really didn't give a sh!T about me, how could I make him "nervous"? If he was really "over it", why would he feel "nervous"? What possible power could I hold over him, to upset or disturb him, if that was the case? Doesn't he realize if I had wanted to demand some kind of dramatic confrontation, I could have done that long ago? WTF knows, right?
Since I began this journey, I've been trying to only do things with integrity. If B WAS drawing a line in the sand to say, "I am completely not interested in you, do not step closer to me," I am not sure I can continue, with integrity, to do what I've been doing. Without it becoming something like, "oh! don't worry about me, just throw me a tiny crumb of attention or affection every 3 to 6 months or so, I'll keep caring about you and being here for you unconditionally." Which I am not sure I can do, with integrity, without it turning into something where I am just groveling at his feet. Is this situation *really* acceptable to me? Trying to look at this through a "passionate marriage" lens, I am thinking it is possible that as long as this is what I'm willing to accept, it might be all that I ever get. It is possible that if I, externally or internally, stand up for myself, I might actually get more. But I really don't know what that would look like.
I had a realization that I've been thinking that him not incorporating me into his future was a problem that came up in the year before the bomb. However I very painfully realized that this behavior was there from the very beginning, though it was about his short-term plans instead of his long-term plans, so it didn't upset me as much. But it was always there. This made me feel... disgusted. I felt as close as I've ever felt to just giving up.
Part of me is thinking, "$%@!!! If he ever wants me back, he is going to have to DAMN WELL PROVE HIMSELF TO ME. How about HE reads all the relationship books, and finds the 1-2 therapists in the whole friggin world who have a clue about couples counseling? how about HE goes to therapy until he uses up all his sessions? how about HE joins an online support group and posts over a thousand times? how about HE does as much work as I have?"
Thanks to a friend in RL, I had a realization about pursuit. I have always thought as pursuit and not pursuit as some sort of twisted and manipulative game. Now I realize that giving someone else the chance to pursue me is about something much, much deeper. It's about giving them a chance to lay it all on the line and risk profound rejection. It's about giving them a chance to set their intention and SHOW ME that they are CHOOSING to WANT ME.
On one of my many bus rides during this trip to my family & friends in the northeast, I spent many hours staring out the window thinking about my options. I am not sure I can continue to do what I've been doing... "pretending to be friends", or "playing the cool game", or whatever it is that I've been doing (though it is also possible, with my recent realizations, that it will have a different "flavor" now). The alternatives are to distance myself further, or distance myself completely. But to me that seems like just the flip side of the coin. I would be punishing his behavior with the same behavior. I thought... there's got to be a better way.
I had a realization about our last meeting, for lunch in August. About his behavior at the end, when he kept distancing himself indirectly instead of just saying, "I need to go, bye." I realized that the way he distanced himself was SO indirect that he "looped me" into pursuing him. It was like the way he distanced himself triggered pursuing behavior in me because I felt like there was no other option. Every juncture was really subtle... like when he just started walking from the restaurant without saying where he was headed and I just followed, or when he changed subway trains and I just followed, or when we walked in front of the bicycle store and he started talking about the window display and I just followed. I realized, at every juncture I had a CHOICE not to follow, but I didn't think I did, because he was being so indirect that I felt not to follow would have been rude. But what if I had just let him get up and change subway trains, and stayed in my seat? Maybe then he would have had to face himself instead of "battling" me.
Then I started re-reading Passionate Marriage and realizing how much all of the problems we were having (and perhaps continue to have) were due to fusion and low differentiation. Realizing he must have been SO poorly differentiated because of his behavior. But by definition, I must be just as poorly differentiated, for us to have stayed together for that long. I think his low differentiation was feeling engulfed by me in the relationship, like he had lost his own identity. That was never a problem for me, but I did need constant validation and reassurance from him and everyone else, and freaked out when I didn't get it.
In Passionate Marriage, David Schnarck (sP?) talks about how when you hit gridlock and you are fused, you have four options: leave, engulf your partner, be engulfed by your partner, or differentiate.
I am trying to figure out what differentiation would look like to me in this situation. I really have no idea at this point. And I know it's not something I can fake.
It is possible that what i did on the phone when I wasn't disappointed when he didn't want to see me, was a step in this direction.
Then, at Christmas I really missed him, and the last few days I've been remembering some of the really amazing things he did for me, and how special what we had really, truly, deeply was.
I don't know what to do about the meeting in January. Of course I want to see him. But even though I have all my hot outfits with me, if a visit would just perpetuate the current dynamic, which I think sucks balls, part of me is like, "what is the point?"
PS (((Poet))) thank you for your merry christmas wishes!!! I tried to post a thanks to you on your thread today but it is locked!
(((essie))) darlin, just FYI your thread is locked too. I wanted to post you a megathank you for your help so instead I just post it here!! I hope you are having so much fun!!
I am nervous that I offended you by taking so long to post back and thank you for your megaposts!! And I am nervous that then that I overwhelmed you by overposting all in one day. I am sorry!!!
Hey T.. of course you havent upset anyone you nana! And your post wasnt too long! It was interesting, but.. I havent read the book, so I wasnt sure what you meant about differentiating and it seemed inconcusive.. what you were saying? I think my sitch currently is a good example of.. you just dont know what these guys are thinking (whilst we still have some contact.. ok, if they remarry, move away, dont return calls THEN you could say, ok, this isnt looking good, right?). But.. follow your intutition, thats what I do, and also, I see it in his eyes.. I see the depth of emotion still there, so thats why I havent given up even if that may seem to some people as madness!
So.. can you clarify what your intentions are? I thought you meant you werent going to push for the Jan meeting? And thanks so much for posting and for your back flips!!!
Al xx
Me:40! H:37 Together: 12yrs IDLY & left 11/07 ADs 03/08 OW 8/08 Reconciled 05/09 now married! my thread
Hey T.. of course you havent upset anyone you nana! Its just Christmas week and few people are posting. And your post wasnt too long! It was interesting, but.. I havent read the book, so I wasnt sure what you meant about differentiating and it seemed inconclusive.. what you were saying?
I think my sitch currently is a good example of.. you just dont know what these guys are thinking (whilst we still have some contact.. ok, if they remarry, move away, dont return calls THEN you could say, ok, this isnt looking good, right?). But.. follow your intutition, thats what I do, and also, I see it in his eyes.. I see the depth of emotion still there, so thats why I havent given up even if that may seem madness!
So.. can you clarify what your intentions are? I thought you meant you werent going to push for the Jan meeting? And thanks so much for posting and for your back flips!!!
I may post a pic of my boots on FB.. why dont you join? As your alias? You dont have to link to RL peeps then.. just us DBers, you dont have to post pics either, Lisa hasnt?? But.. we have some laughs on there, more messages to one another, its fun! Al xx
thank you for reassuring me that I didn't totally alienate everyone!! I was like, "hello.. is anyone out there?? [furrowed brow, slightly forlorn expression]"
To explain a little bit more about what I was realizing from 'passionate marriage'-- basically the closer we get to someone, the more important they are to us, and the harder it is to be open with them, because their reaction matters to us more. when our partner's importance surpasses our ability to differentiate (which means being able to soothe ourselves when we are upset, and hold on to our own self in the midst of conflict and disagreement), we stop disclosing. And frequently we stop feeling attracted to them. It is just this new, very powerful lens for looking at the WA experience, not as something pathological (MLC/ OW/ abuse/ trauma/ etc) but something that is a cycle in every intimate relationship, that can spur major growth.... I might be explaining it really poorly, I REALLY recommend that you read the book!! and then we could discuss!!
thank you for sharing the example of your sitch, and you are always welcome for the back flips and thank you for asking me again to post on FB... I still don't feel ready...
congratulations on your good news in your sitch love, T XX
