Forgive or else...what?

[25yearsmlc]

Here's a story that helps me when I have a harder than usual time forgiving, which is a lot...

One day the entire world heard God's voice say, "The World will end in 7 Days". It was surreal but the entire world heard it. Some scoffed. But the next day everyone heard it again, "The World Will End in 6 Days." This time people panicked. Some went nuts, others cried, and they asked their governments what to do. Then people noticed that the sins of each person began to show on their faces. Envious people started to have green faces. Adulterers had "A"s on their foreheads...those who spoke badly of others or spoke with biting words, started to have disfigured mouths...Days were passing. The rich gave away ALL their fortunes but still they heard God's voice say "THe World will End in 3 Days." Families huddled together and hid, or blamed, and nations wondered if there was some trick to this, or if they should work together to solve the problem. Still they heard the voice each day, counting off to Doomsday. Everywhere people prayed and fought about which religion was "right". Some flagellated themselves and others fasted or chanted. Some got drunk.

The last day on earth, a married couple held each other as they looked out their window, facing their last day on earth. The h had an "A" on his forehead and his wife was green with jealousy and her mouth had sores around it from her biting words and resentments. Finally the h looked at his w and said, "You're the only woman I ever really loved and I'm so sorry I hurt you. Can you forgive me?" The wife said, "Oh I do forgive you, and can you forgive me for all those things I said, before and after?" And the husband nodded and they held each other. Suddenly, the "A" from the h's forehead disappeared, and the wife's complexion became natural and beautiful and her mouth totally healed....and word spread through out the land and the entire world, quickly. People ran out to those they'd resented, and forgave them. Husbands and wives came together, brothers reached out to their estranged brothers, friends who'd become enemies called out to the others, nations wiped their slates clean...and a Voice was Heard speaking to the world saying "You are forgiven."
And the world was saved by forgiveness.

Thought I'd pass that on. And re-read it to myself a lot.
j-

[Tawnya]

Wow..that was good..thanks for sharing

Tawnya

[AJM80]

Thank you for this and your other posts.

[25yearsmlc]

you're welcome.

I had forgotten about this piece but needed to remind myself of it today. How wacky is that?

(Hmm, Maybe not so wacky after all.)

[AJM80]

Things work out like that in mysterious ways, huh? I honestly don't know how you do it, but I guess it is one of those things that time helps to heal.

[25yearsmlc]

you mean how to forgive?

That's a biggie, as I didn't grow up seeing forgiveness.

My parents fought loudly and then retreated...I had to learn about what it looked like.

I began by reading up on it, there are books on it and some articles here.

I finally realized what my anger and pain were causing ME and my children (not my h).

So Remember, your anger/pain consumes YOU, not them...

Holding onto anger to punish someone else-or to teach them a lesson--is like lighting yourself on fire, to get smoke in their eyes.

Fact is, my pain and anger were consuming my heart, and making me bitter.

I was preoccupied with my pain at the expense of my daughters, who needed me more then, than ever.

I had to get rid of the anger or somehow contain it better.
Everyone I met, I would tell about my h. Every time my sisters called, I'd repeat my latest anger incident...

Finally my older sister told me I was really spiralling into a negative vortex...it had to stop. That began with ME.

So for me, forgiving started with letting go of my pain/anger. It was a process.

It was not about my h, and I did not tell him.

It wasn't about him. Do you get that?


When you start to realize what this means, you'll probably begin the process of truly letting go and forgiving.

[AJM80]

I thought about it today and remembered that you didn't have an OW in your situation. I think that's where I struggle off and on with some really intense feelings - the health risks he took, the betrayal, the neglect of me/us because he was too busy (even though he eventually found time to make it work with her), the ongoing possibility that she'd be around my kids/at life events. My H dragged me around with school and moving and job changes, like yours, then progressed to a PA to "blow up our unhappy relationship".

Honestly though, I struggle with the unfairness of it all. My parents always said life isn't fair. But they really tried to keep things fair between my siblings and I. So why do our husbands get to act all crazy and then be forgiven? Even he doesn't think he deserves a second chance.

I know forgiveness is the right path and it's a gift you give to yourself as much as to the person you forgive.

My grandmother was married to a serial cheater - she had a very large family with him before she finally kicked him out (he moved in with woman he already had at least 1 kid with and eventually married her). As she aged and dealt with dementia, her anger at him came back and she had some flash back type episodes. I promised myself as soon as this happened that I would do whatever I could to NOT be bitter and angry. That I would try to make good, careful decisions.

Does your H appreciate and realize what you've done for your relationship? Do you feel validated for what you went through to get to where you are? Are you able to fight now and then have it be calm/blow over? Do you feel secure and safe in your relationship, now that some time has passed(not taking it for granted, of course)?

[25yearsmlc]

I don't know that there wasn't an OW, but that's fine with me.

It makes it easier not to know of course. (Though at the time I almost wanted there to be an OW b/c I could not for the life of me, understand h's choices if there was no OW and if he loved me...so weird...)

But if i had to bet, I'd say there's a good chance there wasn't an OW, at least not one I care about enough.

Why? B/c I went on a few dates myself (probably more than he did) and didn't sleep with any OMs so, I'm trying to not have a double standard.

You are stuck a bit with the idea that your h "doesn't deserve forgiveness".

But he doesn't even have to know about this b/c it's about letting go and not being like your grandmother. If she had let go earlier and moved on she might have met someone else but regardless, she would have had more peace in her life...sooner...and others would not have had to endure the ripple effect of her anger.

That saying "holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes..." applies, so it's mostly about freeing OURSELVES...to GAL, and Detach and live well.

We cannot be happy without letting go of our pain. So we have to let it go. Life is short. Plus you have kids to model this for.

They are watching you. Someday they will be betrayed or face a bad setback...they need to learn FROM YOU NOW that their pain isnt' eternal or fatal...b/c yours isn't.

But I did spend a lot of time spinning around in useless circles of asking "why?? and "HOW can he", etc...and I thought we would someday have to see the marital history the same. We never will. We each have our own lens for viewing and it's NOT necessary to agree on all that happened or why. We can each own what we can and not necessarily talk it all out with each other. Suppose I had slept with OM and then reconciled with h. Why do I need to tell h? (Okay for your std issues, assume I am clean. Why tell h all the details if I have chosen HIM??) Leave the past in the past.

What matters is now and "this day forward."

I thought about it today and remembered that you didn't have an OW in your situation. I think that's where I struggle off and on with some really intense feelings - the health risks he took,

Was OW a prostitute? I ask b/c frankly, as the w of a doctor and health care lawyer, I am familiar with STDs and very very FEW men can get one from a woman. She'd have to have open sores in certain places, etc...so I guess I don't get too into the whole risk to the FAMILY...I mean, it's not realistic or based on actual science. God, i hate lecturing on his behalf but I would let that issue drop...

the betrayal, the neglect of me/us because he was too busy

absolutely I hear you...ouch.


(even though he eventually found time to make it work with her)

so are they getting married or what?

, the ongoing possibility that she'd be around my kids/at life events. My H dragged me around with school and moving and job changes, like yours, then progressed to a PA to "blow up our unhappy relationship".

Honestly though, I struggle with the unfairness of it all.


Bingo...I did too.


So why do our husbands get to act all crazy and then be forgiven? Even he doesn't think he deserves a second chance.

He's irrelevant. You are doing this b/c you saw how miserable your grandmother WAS and her ex was not "hurt" by her anger.

SHE was most hurt by her anger, as was her family...for decades...literally. You want that, b/c you think it's MORE UNFAIR to let go of the anger? Really?

Also the happiness of the LBSer is NOT related to the misery of the WAS. What if your h becomes a drug addict and gets jailed for life...are you happier or better off? NO... There is no connection, although LBSers think there is. They focus so much on how WAS is doing instead of how THEY are doing. They could spend that energy on creating their own joy and happiness and new lives...

The "success" of the LBSer is solely related to what we create for ourselves.

that's the key for you. See that holding onto the anger makes YOU miserable and your family. That's unfair. Letting it go means it's LESS UNfair...doesnt make it fair, but it IS less UNfair...make sense?

I know forgiveness is the right path and it's a gift you give to yourself as much as to the person you forgive.


When you see that he really is irrelevant, you'll see it's not really a gift to him. It's all about YOU. You have to see that the truly detached person doesn't care if they know or not. They've moved on to their new lives with regret FOR THEIR WASs b/c in the end, they know that the WAS has lost more than they have...

I promised myself as soon as this happened that I would do whatever I could to NOT be bitter and angry. That I would try to make good, careful decisions.

Then you know what you must do. Read up on it and talk to whomever can help you with it. Come here, see a c, etc. I found Marianne Williamson's books on anger/fear and another called "return to love" very helpful with her discussions about forgiving and anger. She's new agey for some but I needed what she had to say.

Does your H appreciate and realize what you've done for your relationship?

In some ways there's no way he can possibly ever really know the full extent of what he put me/us through. But yes I'd say he does at a deep level, know he's lucky. When we attended Retrovaille, after a year of piecing,

towards the end of what I thought was fairly productive weekend, suddenly h broke down and cried (this is rare for him) and said he felt that he had "crashed the family car" -metaphor to be used in their exercises- and that "all the money is gone and all the passengers (family member's R's with him) were on life support and might not make it."

I knew in that moment, that he "got it". His r's with our d's suffered greatly and even now sometimes suffer. But they are working on their R and he takes a much greater interest in the oldest D than before, b/c he missed her last 2 years of HS...a deed that deeply wounded her.

Do you feel validated for what you went through to get to where you are? Are you able to fight now and then have it be calm/blow over?

I don't know exactly what you mean about being validated for what I went through. There's no official certificate of heroism in marriage.

I feel it was the right thing to do and I know that d22 told her employer, a friend of mine, that she admired my commitment to m, and the kids seem happy when we show affection or are together. That is some validation I guess.

The kids chime in a lot when we do argue (NOT desirable but that's the age they're in).

We do fight better, fyi. That's a change and I am much better at that than before. H has reacted positively but I'd say that I have done more work there, than he has. But he works harder at his job too, so there's always some sleep deprivation or stress from his job that counts too.


Do you feel secure and safe in your relationship, now that some time has passed(not taking it for granted, of course)?

I feel pretty secure in the r. Yes. More so than in a long time. Of course, I could be wrong.

Marriage is a paradox in a way. You cannot take it for granted, we all know that. And yet, you have to trust the other to be there for you and not to feel sick to the stomach when they're late from work b/c you think they might be somewhere else...and if you are sick, and "neglectful" of them, you have to be confident that it doesn't mean your m will end b/c you couldn't ml for 3 months...

(H went on 3 trips (that I know of) to Alaska without telling me. All so he could get the "Dream Job" there, where I refused to live. Point is, it feels weird to find out your h is 3000 miles away and didnt mention it til he got there. It's very embarrassing for lack of a better word. It freaked me out.

I ended up joining him for a job I got there with his company and dragged d2 for her 5th grade.

I promised her that her happiness would be the deciding factor and she agreed to give it a year. While there, the fears and doubts I had about the company and "dream job" came to fruition and h was mortified and enraged and very very sad. Just then, his mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer so we were able to leave without h confronting his idiot "heroes" who ripped him/us off and we had a "confrontation free" exit.

His mother died and he was very difficult then. I recall wondering if I had made a HUGE mistake not ending the m earlier. But I also thought it was too lousy and crappy to leave him when his mom was dying. I earned some loyalty points there though, I can see that now. He was appreciative, once the grief had passed some. And maybe that's why he sees me in a light that he's more grateful for now. I'm not sure. But when he gets into that "I work so hard so I deserve blah blah blah" I try to gently signal him at first, that this is a path I do not enjoy being on.

If he persists I leave the room or house and so does d13. He has a demanding career HE CHOSE after having a career already. I did not want him to go to med school although I did agree at the time. Sort of. I was pregnant with s24 and IN law school and h had planned on beginning med school and did not let the birth of our son change H's plans....but his birth changed everything for me.

When I "review" our m this way, I can get all into my victimhood. My journal, when I read it, gets me riled up. So I don't do that.

I try to stay in the present and "from this day forward," b/c it makes ME happier, and our family benefits.

Here's a lesson I learned that may help you.

H was about to leave for Alaska in May. I considered that to be our divorce day b/c it was impossible for me to see us together with 3000 miles away and his doing it behind my back, etc.

But h had a conference in Palm Springs in Feb and wanted us to go with him for a "mini vacation". I thought that sounded insane and wrong.

That I could not fake it and that if I did fake and act nice, it would only encourage him to mistreat us, or that he'd think we were all fine with his choices and maybe make more of them, and worse ones...

Somehow I realized that this approach was the opposite of what I needed to do. I wanted my kids to have 4 days of some fun, it was the last time we'd ever vacation together and I wanted it to count and be as good as possible. I also figured I'd give h something to MISS and no one misses a pain riddled LBSer.

I wanted it to be a good time. But how? How to be around h when I was so angry, afraid and furious and embarrassed (it IS embarrassing to be left & deserted for a JOB...on the last frontier and gold rush and SO MLC, like out of a book...)

Well, For 4 days, I thought I could shelve the anger and pain. For FOUR DAYS I could I see him positively, or at least neutrally.

I STOPPED the negative voices and messages I had in my head. When h started to pontificate, instead of thinking he was a nerd, I felt some gratitude that he is intelligent and teaching the kids.

Instead of thinking he was vain, I came to appreciate the good shape he is in, and you get the point. I figured I could always be negative and angry later after the 4 days (and that thought, sadly, Comforted me...)

I put a stop sign in my head when the criticisms came into my head. I just would NOT GO THERE...for four days...

And it really helped. We did a bunch of fun things and I see Palm Springs fondly when I think of it. We had fun.

After 2 days I actually FELT differently for h, and had stirrings of old feelings. And h responded pretty fast. I was pretty darn consistent FOR FOUR DAYS...and it was amazing.

Probably helped that we were away from home. We ALL got along and it began with my and my attitude towards h.

Thing is, we got a glimpse of what forgiveness would look like. I highly recommend doing something like this, for a manageable amount of time. Then try again...and again...in pieces. It helps.


For the "record", DBing is likely to be a one time deal for me. I can't say for sure but my guess is that if he freaked on me again, or was with OW or wasn't "sure" what he wanted, and acted like a single man,

I'd be done rather quickly and I would not ever let him or anyone else, break me down again. I would not look back either. Life is short. I wouldn't spend a lot of time wondering why why why...I'd move on to the choices that made me happy the fastest.

It's not bitterness or anger either. I'm at peace but I have a type of strength and knowledge that makes me KNOW, there's no way I'd go through that again. I didn't have that before.

What is it your h wants now?

Don't enable him to avoid the work by saying "oh H says even he wouldn't give him a second chance" b/c that is his method of avoiding the work to change, that would be needed for you to reconcile.

IOW by sayng "oh it's too late now" then he gets off easy. If he had to do the work, it'd be work.

VALIDATION??....now that I think of it I guess

My hope is that my kids have seen a legacy of commitment to marriage, a keeping of vows, and working out lots of differences, and forgiveness, and recently a closeness and affection together that I really want our kids (esp d22) to see. I did not see forgiveness as a child. Or much affection between my parents.

I try to have more PDA for that reason. They need to know I'm glad I stayed b/c I am. (Most of the time!!)

Hope this helps. Don't be your grandmother, you can break the cycle.
Consider it a gift from her to you.

[25yearsmlc]

I forgot your h's ow is a stripper...

I retract the STD comments about you even though it's true that it's very very rare for women to give it to men, but if a woman had an STD, it'd be someone in her "profession" , that's a drag.

OTOH, it speaks to how much more likely this is to be a MLC...I mean, what do they have "in common"? Seriously...

I recall my then 43 y/o brother newly single dating a woman who was 24 and he constantly inserted her age into every conversation with me and my siblings.

Finally I said, "bro, the age disparity is not flattering to you. It makes you look pathetic b/c we all know she's no rocket scientist so you guys have nothing in common. It's like you have a need to date someone young to prove....what?" Apparently my sisters said the same thing to him...oh well. He ended up marrying a woman his age...and later admitted that the 24y/o was USING HIM ..... b/c she thought he had an important job/money and blah blah blah...

(I guess if they were both cerebral pianists or had something truly uniquely in common, maybe I could've understood more...)
SO is the stripper some sort of secret genius artist?

Is your h trying to rescue her?

What's his story now?

[AJM80]

Hi - other woman is a stripper who was sleeping with multiple other men when they first started going to hotels to have unprotected sex, while I was pregnant with son. That's where my comments about health concerns comes in - it just seems so, so dirty and irresponsible. Condoms are not that hard to use. We got tested, all were clean. Would ask him get tested again before anything went too far, since he is still with her. What do you think about HPV - is that all hype re Gardisil? They really targeted my peer group when it came out and freaked us all out.

God works in mysterious ways. Last night H brought up taking the kids to visit his sister while his parents are also in town. He wanted to know if I'd go too or if it would be to weird for me. I said I needed to think about it and asked where we'd be staying. After reading your message about vacation, I thought, I know we'll have fun, why not.

He said the other day he doesn't love her and is trying to figure out how to end it, but it kind of is what it is. He told me 6 months ago that he did love her and wanted to be with her. For me, I'd thought I would rather not know....but it helped me understand why he was so all over the place.

I think H is a fundamentally good, loving person who deserves forgiveness. I can understand how this all happened. I think I've owned my part in all the craziness and tried to make good changes in my life. He seems to slowly be making some changes of his own and I do like him better for the good times we've had in the last few months. I did what you did and faked it until I really did start enjoying our time together. I try to spend as little time as possible being angry or unhappy - things with the kids get to me. When D is upset/crying about Daddy or when I am struggling to handle finances and 2 babies or when he misses milestones (holidays, firsts, etc), I think wow - how is this ok?

I'd always thought my parents broke the cycle of divorce (both their parents) - they have an amazing, real marriage with the good and the bad and commitment. My gma was never an angry woman until the dementia in her late 80s and even then, it was very sporadic. She was a devout Christian, a loving, funny woman. She never complained in my hearing about all the jobs she worked and everything she went through with 7 kids to raise on her own. My aunts and mother have told us more about what happened, especially when they were so upset that she was reliving "what he did to her". Her ability to accept her H for who he was let most of her children still have a loving relationship with their father.

"We each have our own lens for viewing and it's NOT necessary to agree on all that happened or why. We can each own what we can and not necessarily talk it all out with each other...Leave the past in the past." - This is something I am getting closer to fully living, but still struggle with sometimes.

Totally understand what you mean when you say this - "When I "review" our m this way, I can get all into my victimhood. My journal, when I read it, gets me riled up. So I don't do that." I try to avoid my triggers that throw me back to the more intense emotions and try to focus on the joy and progress we've all made. Like I said, it is usually things with the kids or being overwhelmed that get me.

Agree - "For the "record", DBing is likely to be a one time deal for me."

I don't think it's too late - it is a question of whether or not he's willing to put in the work to help fix things. At this point, while I am not sure of what he wants, he has said sometimes he thinks he should ask me to go to counseling and "try to patch together some semblance of a relationship for the kids sake" I have said in the past that I would be willing to go to counseling for the kid's sake, but I'm not willing to "just stay married until the kids are out of school". He's said in the past that maybe being a good father/husband isn't a goal of his. However, that was in the initial craziness and he's made huge steps in his interactions with the kids (and me)with every month that has gone by.

My parent's PDA always made me feel really happy - she'd reach over and rub his neck in the car or he'd kiss her hello/goodbye, etc. Plenty of huffs and puffs too, but mostly bending and helping. I also want my kids to understand that life is real and sometimes it hurts, but you get up and go on and do the best you can. People make mistakes and you forgive the people you love. But you cannot take away the consequences of their actions - my H, like yours will have to deal with his own regret and the damage he did to a lot of relationships.