It's Complicated!

[25yearsmlc]

I'm not suggesting you lie or go out of your way to protect the cheating spouse. But how on earth does it help to have people know who would not otherwise know IF, IF IF your goal is a real reconciliation? What good does it do? I don't believe it's good at all for the children to know if they don't have to. I'd go to great lengths to keep my kids from knowing something like this. But search your heart and talk to a DB coach or your t or whomever helps you in your goal of a recon.

Sometimes, Isn't it possible that the betrayed spouse is being a bit punitive? Not saying the WAS doesn't deserve that, but every time the word "deserves" comes up from a LBSer, it sets off alarms in me as I recall being asked to watch for that from my own DB coach. It was a way of knowing the diff between setting/enforcing healthy boundaries, and trying to punish the WAS.

Punishing.....is not our jobs and even our children know this at some level. It does not honor us to do that and of course, it's NOT going to get your spouse back. It looks vindictive and sometimes, it is. We have to model grace under fire, and stay dignified in the face of deep betrayal.

But just as importantly, the more defensive the WAS feels, the more we "dish it out" to them, the more vindicated they feel for doing what they did. In effect, it validates their choices as we "prove" that we're vindictive people and that they were "right" to feel and act as they did. I DID lash out at times so don't think I"m holier than thou. Good God, the things that came out of my mouth at times, b/c I was SO ANGRY and SO HURT....I felt "right" damn it! Let's say, for the sake of argument, I was/am...so what?

My DB coach said not to say so much of the "Why are you doing this? How can you do this to us?" etc because it keeps the WAS from getting to listen to their own inner voice tell them they're screwing up, as we force them to continue defending their choices with our questions and insinuations and doubts.

Of course by its' nature some folks will know of an A, if it comes to anything more than a short fling. I just don't know how having more people know, can help a couple get back together. I did NOT have this issue in my WAH/MLCer, although h left for some time and we are now reconciled. My h did not "deserve" me or our family in the sense that he made terribly selfish choices for crappy crazy reasons I will never fully understand. That sucked and it was incredibly hard to get through. Forgiveness is something I'm working through and it's really really hard. I sometimes had to take it a day or hour at a time. And remind myself of the many flaws I had and the idiotic approaches I had tried to get h to change, idiotic b/c they never worked but I continued the same cheeseless tunnels. The DB Remedy book was an eye opener for me with the whole 180's, and letting go, and NOT doing more of what doesn't work.

But my DB coach said something that applies to this sitch as well, which was to "Keep the road home, paved and smooth" and that really helped me remember what general approach to recall. She also said "Don't try to show your H the consequences of his actions; LIFE will do that". And it does.

Guess those are really my points. If it comes to a D, then the whole approach shifts and we're talking a way diff ball game. But glam wants things to work out. But as I said, I don't know the whole history. I do know score keeping fails both sides and that you cannot make someone recall things your way and you have to let go of the desire to see the past the same way. It's about now, and what you can create for your family and the future, imho.
j-

[fisherman]

I'm so sorry to jump in here glam, please forgive me. 25yrs you absolutely amaze me. I would love your advice if you ever get a minute. Where have you been all my life??

Again I'm sorry Glam.

25yrs your an angel.

[glamgirl]

25 years it was 3 years ago when everything was going on I confided in his family and mine. I did express myself and what my h was doing. I am not going to go into specifics, it was 3 years ago and not important. Now I just live my life and don't discuss my h with anyone.

He is damaged by what I said and did. I can't go back and hit the undo button. My h feels that I betrayed him and can't understand why I hurt the one I loved, but I could easily say the same for him. It's a sad sad story and I feel bad for what I said, but I can't change that. My h has to want to forgive me.

My h finally text me. He is not coming nor is he picking up my sis. He can't even talk to me, only via text. Thinks I am lecturing him.

I am at the end of the road. It's now 3 years that h has not been home for Christmas. I can't make it a 4th!

[25yearsmlc]

Geez Glam,

I don't know wth set him off right now, but if it has been 3 Christmases without him, he may associate this time of year with his own weirdness in general... sorry,

Ouch! Um, as far as both of you letting go and each hurting the other...I think I get it. I know that the more my h worked, the more I felt I needed to stay home with the kids and work less...AND then the more h felt the need to work longer hours b/c I wasn't earning as much...I mean, we had other issues but that was an excellent one for revealing our pattern of blaming the other and yet, in hindsight, there was validity on each end. Who the hell cares now, which came first, if you know what i mean.

You sound past that, so if he brings something up that you said more than, say, a week ago, you can say "I'm sorry that hurt you. If I had it to do over again, I'd do/say it differently, But all I have is now, and the issue at hand is 'X' so please help me solve this..." and stay on point with whatever is at hand. You WILL have conflicts come up with the kids or schooling or something and the number of conflicts is not important (life throws more at some people, period) but the way those conflicts are resolved IS important.

Do you have any conflict resolution skills or patterns in your M that you can get back to? Maybe you can remind him of those, or establish them in an arena that isn't filled with too much pain or anger. Make sense?

RE: Holidays without the WAS --- if you get a chance, I posted earlier to someone about creating Christmas "traditions" without an h around. It sounds as if your h has a pattern of being expected but then not showing up, so in a way, he may feel set up for failure. Perhaps the best thing to do now is to have NO expectations of him but not with an angry attitude, and make plans for something with the kids that is fun. If your h shows up and it isn't inconvenient for you --- if no boundary is violated --then welcome him warmly. Recall that you want the warmth and love of your home to CONTRAST with the craziness and coldness in his "other" world. You want to be a woman that only a fool would leave.

Our first Christmas with h gone, (he left a day or two afterwards and I had kids home from college as well as in elementary school) I took the kids to a ski place and stayed in a cabin near the mountain. It was a real adventure getting there, a little scary in a blizzard without h, and needing chains on the tires, etc. But we got there, ended up having a blast. The next year, d11 asked if we were going there "Again, since we ALWAYS go skiing at Christmas..." I say this to show you that kids believe in traditions after maybe ONE time doing it. Establishing new traditions with kids isn't hard and they may be craving the chance to have fun in some way that their dad's absence isn't so glaring. It wasn't cheap, but I can't think of a better present for us than being happy together, with or without a dad around. We were still a family capable of laughter and joy. Remind your children of this, especially at this time of year.

I did write about this elsewhere though, so I hate repeating myself too much...(yet I do!)
j-

[glamgirl]

Thanks 25 years. I value your insight. Right now I am numb and can't think beyond this post right now. I am just feeling a loss that h can't be around me and the kids.

I think the best thing for me right now is to go on with my life. Not that I wasn't doing that already, but if my h can't forgive me and open up then what's the point of our future.

[glamgirl]

I was making our home one of love and welcoming my h here. I think that I have been doing great at that. It is just that my h has to take a step or two in the right direction too.

It can't be so one sided!

[MidwesternGirl]

GG

My only advice to you is to let him be and not contact him. When he is ready, he will contact you.

25 years: Each situation is different. My h chose to tell our kids what he was doing. Anyhow, this thread is not about me and I will leave it at that.

Glam: Keep praying. I just sent you something so check your email.

[25yearsmlc]

Hey GG,
just read some of your older posts. Here's my two cents and I could be way off, so it's just my best shot for now...um, there are some 2 x 4 coming so put a helmet on, okay?

You seem to have a pattern well established in the 15 posts of yours I read, including some from months ago. Your h calls (or rather, you call him and maybe he answers, or eventually calls you back)...and gives you an estimated time of arrival, and you arrange your life and home around that time. Your h sometimes comes, sometimes he does not, and sometimes he comes late. His presence or absence becomes your focus and you text him, or call him, repeatedly when he is late and then you call to ask him what YOU should do if he's going to be coming by later or not at all. (How about saying in ONE call, "sorry you got backed up at work, but the party is starting so maybe we'll see you at the pizza place, hope all is well!" BE upbeat, but enforce the boundary and be upbeat about it, nothing angry, you are assuming work came up and couldn't be avoided and therefore you have no cause for anger, and you minimized the impact on the kids...) and HE missed out on a good time...and YOU had a good time!!! (( The reality is that if he could change things like this, he's more likely to do so if he feels left out of a good time, rather than merely avoiding a harangue from you. And if he couldn't change things, if work really did keep him then he'll appreciate your understanding AND the kids won't feel rejected. ))

INstead, His actions and mood dictate the day and his absence means another ruined or "lost day" of your life, waiting for him. It's ALL about him. His actions are what color your days - and our lives are made up of our days; so your life is all colored by him, if and when he gets around to it. It's not intentional on his part, it's just that HE is the focus of his life and you aren't. And he is the focus of your life, and you aren't. You are only important to yourself in the sense that your inherent value stems from your view, of HIS feelings about you.....you give him all the power over you, and worse, over your kid's lives too.

I grew up in an alcoholic home for some of my childhood (dad got sober later) but our lives were on pins and needles if dad wasn't in a good mood, and he usually wasn't and even when he was in a good mood, it could change in a heart beat and for no apparent reason, or he'd over react. Your h does this too, and you enable it.

You revolve around him, emotionally hovering and wondering what his words mean, might mean, whether there are inconsistencies and what those mean, scarfing up the scraps he throws when he's in a pro-family mood, and what your future is which means what HE'll Decide it is, etc.

I like metaphors....so here they come. Let's say your life is a novel. You are letting him write Your Life's Novel. (More Realistically, he's writing his own novel and you're a character in his, but not the main one...)

Well, Do you like how your life's novel is going? What SHOULD the next chapter be like? How will the novel go, and when will it end? And how will it end?

Sadly, you don't even know if you have another page or two left, since life is short, and tomorrow is promised to no one. The past few chapters of your life have Not gone the way You'd like them to go, and yet this is YOUR Life...your only one.

SO, why don't you become the author of your life's novel and control your life? GAL and have no expectations of h in it. You have often said "I'll just expect nothing" but in fact, your posts are filled with hopes and dashed expectations. Even months ago. And today. You do indeed have expectations of him, and he fails them, and he knows it. Guilt brings few if any back home. More often, guilt morphs into anger and lashing out.

Back in August, you expressed feelings about your older son staying on in the house ((SIDE NOTE---to me, this is really saying that since you wanted a man in the home, and the man who is supposed to be there, isn't, naturally you want a 'replacement' and a reminder that the 'real man of the house' isn't a real man...THIS is also unfair to your son. No matter how old he is, sons don't make good husbands----))

In a normal sitch with your h at home, it'd be appropriate to ASK your h how he feels about having an adult child/renter? in the home after college/school etc, and I'm assuming that it isn't his bio child either. This would obviously have to be a joint decision. BUT none of this is relevant as your h doesn't live there anyway. Which is also why you didn't need to bring it up at all.

Or is it relevant in your h's mind as an issue that bothered him in the past, since perhaps your h thinks to himself, "this is another burden I shouldn't have to handle..." and frankly, your h has consistently sounded (on this board anyhow) as if he feels unduly burdened by family needs and demands. This is no excuse, as we are all "burdened" by these blessings in our midst. It's simply a typical MLCer/WAS type of comment and view point and is partly why we, the LBSers are to have NO expectations of them. It also protects US and our children so we don't have so many days lost to the aliens. A family lived near us a few years back, and the couple divorced due to an A that the wife discovered and forced the h to tell their children. As in "Tell them why you have to leave! Tell them about OW!" etc. nightmare, of course. But later on the h would call his kids to say he'd be coming by on saturday at 9 am to go somewhere really fun. I'd see the kids on the porch at 8:50 am...until about noon when he MIGHT call to say he couldn't make it. Or the next day he'd call and apologize for "working late" etc. I assume the OW made it hard for him, who knows? who cares? But I saw those kids waiting on the steps outside (thereby avoiding any contact between the parents IF he did come) and I wondered sometimes why the mother let them get so hurt so often. But she wanted them to hate him as it was the only way to hurt her xh. The mother/wife's anger and pain was stronger in her, than the welfare of her children- who needed desparately to know their father, though flawed, loved THEM. She should have planned something as a back up for the kids and made them feel better. Instead she relished the fact that "See? he left us ALL, and rejected us ALL..." anyway...

I mean, I'm FOR reconciliation, and I'm in it. But I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see 180s that are significant in YOU, or changes that are lasting in him. Maybe some superficials...and lots of microscopically examining your h's words and interactions with you and the kids. Don't know if there's any intimacy issues or ow in the picture anymore. Don't have to know either. Except some of those are red flags. I'm not into snooping, in case that sounded that way. Just wondering what is really different in your approach than what you did 4 months ago, or a year ago. There are tons of little tests you are giving your h without even knowing it maybe. Like the comments about the son moving out or staying in...No offense, but can you see how that seemed manipulating or testing? And now, something has again yanked your h's chain so he's spewing alien crap and freaking out on the holidays...Oh, the "pressure" of the holidays on your h and all his navel gazing and self absorbtion is a bit self indulgent and downright cowardly, isn't it? Why enable that? Is he with OW? i mean, who isn't with their kids on Christmas? Have you offered him half the day with the kids without you around? Just curious...NOT TO SNOOP, but to figure out if this is weirdo depression or what.

You know, GAL means you can move on and shut a door, stop looking back at it, and move forward. But Like swimming to the other side means you can't keep looking back at the shore...you gotta move forward without constantly checking, b/c that is NOT moving forward; that's testing. Don't worry that moving forward means you'll lose him. Moving on does not CAUSE the WAS to stay gone. IF they're going to stay gone, moving on just speeds up YOUR Life being resumed. ANd now and then, moving on makes the WAS realize that he's losing the greatest thing he ever had, and wakes up. For me, there were a few of those moments but they were genuine; I wasn't moving forward as a way to get H back, but b/c I needed to move on.

And just b/c you shut a door to keep from looking back, doesn't mean it's locked. Your h will always be able to find you and pursue you if he wants to. He doesn't need you to keep him updated on your every move or where you'll be from 7 to 10 that night. Let him know a new cell number if he needs it for the kids. REDUCE YOUR CONTACTING HIM AND BACK OFF BIG TIME. I'd only call him for urgent matters ONLY related to the children. If legal issues arise, let the L's handle them. Remove yourself from that equation as you will NEVER benefit and their words to you have no legal weight, and you might reveal info you shouldn't, or infuriate him or tip him off, etc. Letting the L's handle that part makes life reveal the consequences and not you, so you don't get blamed for things.. I've found the couples who get back together can be helped by having L's in it (AND it goes the other way too!!! I Know!!! )

But this is dragging on and I'm concerned for your finances and what you really know about them. Most men make financial plans ahead of departures, and most women don't. Are you okay? Hey, I'm not saying it's over or anything, I'm just pointing out patterns and looking for 180s and hoping you are protecting your kids. Don't recall how your finances are or your state.

For now, if I were you I'd be planning my family's Christmas time without expectation of ANY contact with h. Seriously. He'll likely come around, sure, I know. You just don't know when or how he'll be, so don't let him determine the quality of your children's holidays or yours? Why on earth would you allow HIM to schedule or choose times for anything? IF you want him around, invite him and OTHERS to something that lasts a few hours and if he shows up, great. If not, so what? You'll have had fun. If he shows up, be pleasantly surprised, NOT with an "about time you got here" attitude. I think my DB coach said something that was really really hard but DID work...

Listen like a lover, and applaud loudly for the tiniest 1% of good they do. Stay calm at all times, and LOSE THE ANGER in front of h... This is harder than it sounds. But my h's "love language" (fyi I found the Five Love Languages a really good book) is affection and affirmation and since he works a lot, I have to verbally affirm. Sometimes applauding little things felt forced an unnatural, but dang, it works. Another time, for instance, I was overwhelmed by the bills I was paying and not at all happy with h being gone, b/c he had paid them before. I said something like what a drag it was. H got mad and said "Yeah now you know what it's like cuz I've been doing it 20 years!..." And I said, "I realize that and I want to say THANK YOU for that, b/c it IS stressful..."
Total silence from my h, who I'm sure expected me to complain. Instead he said, "you're welcome..." That was a small but clear 180' for me and him. So listen to his work and do NOT relate it to you or the family, but "listen like a lover", and support him. This is NOT easy. Sometimes it's like Mother Teresa stuff after what you've been put through.

Food for thought. Hope you create a new "tradition" of happiness with your children. And since you'll have NO expectations of your h, none of your expectations will be unfulfilled. You'll be fine. And as for GAL, what are you doing in that realm?

You know there ARE some positives to having no h around, like watching chick flicks and controlling the remote, not having the seat left up, and being just fine without meat at every meal. I'm half kidding, but wanting you to focus on some of the little goods surrounding you, and of course, THE big positives, like good healthy kids and food on the table and whatever your GAL plans are...remember to write the novel of Your life, and be the star of Your life's film and get a happy ending, and middle too! (and for my last metaphor...this isn't a dress rehearsal...stop waiting for the "real show" to start.)

Good luck,
j

[brandnewday]

GG,

I know especially at this time of year we so desperately want normalcy, and it is very hard to try and have that whilst our Marriages are on the rocks.

Alot of what is going on is in your head. Both of you have control issues and it may be time for one of you to change the steps of the dance. I have posted to you about this before.

You have to let go, completely detach and do things without your Husband. Love him from a distance, pray for him daily, but to not make your life revolve around him and his moods.

MLC or not, Christmas can still be a wonderful Holiday, and you can enjoy your family even if he is not there. Sometimes they need to see that your life is still going to move on with or without them.

On a side note, your Husband showed alot of concern for your safety regarding your traveling in the bad weather and telling you to cancel the appointment.This is NOT about control, it is about your welfare.

Perhaps you need to start looking at the glass half full instead of half empty.Things are not as bad as they seem.

[job]

Glam,
I'm very sorry to hear that he's opted to pull the MIA bit once again. However, the holiday should not be centered around him and him participating as a family member. It's a holiday to spend w/your family and friends and it's obvious that he's still got some issues to deal with.

So, Glam, just let him be. He's the one losing out on the holiday, family and fun. He's the one that has chosen to be the "victim" again this year. This isn't about you at all, but about him.

Your expectations were a bit high on him picking up your sister and being there this year. He's not ready for all of the holiday festivities. Let him be. Do not contact him and allow him to contact you. He will when he realizes that he has absolutely no control over you and yes, the holiday doesn't revolve around your little "boy".

Glam, your glass is half full....your sister is coming and there is still a lot to do. Enjoy the time you spend w/her and know that many new memories will be made this year. Your h will be fine sulking in the corner...let him be. Time for him to realize that you do have a life and that life will continue moving forward w/or w/o him.