Divorced, but 'still hopeful' to reconcile.

[still hopeful]

Thank you, David.

I will certainly read all of those more diligently. I am certainly in a much different 'ballgame' than I was 3 years ago. Plus, I am much stronger and more assertive. I do believe THAT is where her attraction comes from, but she definitely has memories of a much weaker and much less assertive me. I am unwilling to undo the growth that I have undergone. I have gotten back in touch with the me that initially attracted her to me.

Thanks for the direction and thoughts.
Tom

[still hopeful]

Today I had more hand grenades thrown into the mix by my emotionally volatile XW. Not fun.

When I awoke, XW was responding to my texts from earlier in the evening at 1:05am. BIG red flag! I worry that my D8 was up that late. According to XW, she was up that late to use the restroom and decided to check her cell phone. My feeling still is, ri-i-i-i-i-ight!

I lead a Sunday school small group of 3rd graders. My D8 is in my group and she was with XW this morning. As is often the case when D8 is with XW on a Sunday morning, D8 did not make it to Sunday school. Many of the children as me where is D8. I simply say she is with her mom.

When I got to my car with S3 I checked my phone. XW sent 3 text msgs about oversleeping. I tried to call her on both her cell phone and the house phone, but to no avail. Not a surprise <exasperation>!

XW calls me a bit later and after listening to her I tell her that I have some concerns. XW immediately starts snapping at me telling me that she knows what my concerns are and she doesn't want me to belabor the point. I said, well since you know what my concerns, why don't you tell me. She then proceeded to tell me that she knows that it's important to me for both her and D8 to get to church each Sunday. Since that was sorta the concerns I had expressed to her before, I let it go. Actually, what I told her is that it is important to me that D8 make it to Sunday school each week and that if D8 was with her, I am certainly willing to pick up D8 and get her to Sunday school so XW didn't have to get up and get all fixed up. XW said NO, she would get D8 there when D8 was with her. This pledge didn't work too well.

Later in the afternoon, XW called me to ask where she might find a hardware store. I told her where to find one and asked her where D8 was. XW said I just dropped them off. I said them? Who's them? XW told me Brit(13), the daughter of DH#4. I said where did you drop them off. Answer: the nail shop. I asked XW, what is the deal with hanging out with a 13 year old? (XW has previously told me that Brit(13) is sexually active, so I have concerns about her being around D8.)

I tell XW that I have concerns about D8 hanging out with Brit(13). XW tells me that I am always belaboring this point with her. I told XW, I am not belaboring the point about Brit(13). This is the FIRST time I have even voiced this to you. I'm concerned with what Brit(13) might be talking with D8 about.

More blasting from her about me being judgmental and negative and comments about Brit(13) needing a mother figure, to which I responded, "That is NOT your job." XW tells me that she is ALWAYS with the girls. They are NEVER alone. I then ask her, "They are at the nail shop and where are you? XW got pissed at that point and proceeded to tell me that I am judgmental and negative. I gotta serious problem with XW's ability to discern what is appropriate for D8 and what is NOT on her own! XW can't even give rational reasons to allay my concerns when I bring them up, she just goes on attack mode.

In talking with a friend, I was told that XW is like night and day. One minute she needs comfort and reassurance, the next minute she wants to bite my head off if I have an opinion or feeling that differs from hers.

Another friend said, XW just wants you to agree with her or to shut up if you don't agree. I am unwilling to shut up. We are talking about my children here. Even though I don't have 100% control over what my children experience, I do have a 100% right to state what my thoughts, feelings and concerns are.

I am still trying to reconcile with my XW. I realize that much of my thread is painting her in a bad light, but she is quite wonderful in many ways. What I have always had trouble dealing with in her is her stance that THE WHOLE WORLD IS WRONG, AND I'M RIGHT! I used to take this stance too often in my past, but today, the only issue I am holding onto that stance is in my wish to reconcile with her.

QUESTION: Am I correct in holding to my STRONG convictions of wanting D8 to make Sunday school every week? XW keeps telling me that getting both herself and D8 to church weekly is VERY important, but I don't see this in XW's actions so much. Similarly, am I correct in holding to my STRONG convictions of NOT wanting my D8 'hanging out' with Brit(13)?


I do not know what tomorrow brings to us, but I do know that I cannot give up my manhood to be with XW. Hopefully, she'll flip from night to day. We'll see. I'll keep you all posted.

Tom

[still hopeful]

Last night I sent XW a text message telling her that I 'got' what she was saying to me that, in her mind, she has been much more apt to hear my 'concerns' from me than she is to hear a thank you or an 'atta girl' from me. I told her that I would make changes in that respect immediately.

She doesn't always communicate her point well, but I've learned to sift through the garbage that her emotions sometimes bring in, to find the kernals(s) of truth in her message. I have found that if I am willing to sift out the combative tone, excessive volume, and verbal personal attacks in the message/conversation, I am able to pan for her (or others') gold nuggets of truth amid the extraneous 'stuff' brought in by old (or new) feelings brought on by something that has actually happened.

Regardless, writing here allows me to sort through MY 'stuff' and inches me closer to reaching my ultimate resolution inside my own head. I very much still wish to reconcile with my XW and desire to make my family whole again. Although I do not excuse myself, I do realize what everyone around me has told me; that my D was not the result of my A, it was simply what XW wanted all along and she finally had an 'excuse' to go ahead and file.

This may be true, but if she's pulling the wool over my eyes, this would be the first time that I had this done to me in my life. Not that it's not possible, it's just that I think it's unlikely. Additionally, being a man of faith, I pray regularly for my God to steer me in the right direction regarding my XW. To date, He hasn't given me any indication that I need to run. I believe God is working on both of us to make us better people individually and to make our children better, as well.

Regardless, I know that my faith is belief in the unseen, so any encouragement from my brothers and sisters to keep on keepin' on would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading. I know I'm a bit long winded.

Tom

[Scarred]

QUESTION: Am I correct in holding to my STRONG convictions of wanting D8 to make Sunday school every week? XW keeps telling me that getting both herself and D8 to church weekly is VERY important, but I don't see this in XW's actions so much. Similarly, am I correct in holding to my STRONG convictions of NOT wanting my D8 'hanging out' with Brit(13)?

You cant make your daughter go to church on "your XW's time". It's good for you to want her to go (if it's a good church), but you cant force it.

When your XW says "its important for her to go", what she may mean is, "I know that it's important for YOU, for her to go".
In contrast, her actions clearly show what SHE considers important, and what is not important. you cant do much about that.

on the "hanging out alone with the 13-year-old slut", you are DEFINITELY RIGHT.
Trouble is, your XW is most likely encouraging that relationship for two reasons:
1. to hurt you
2. to make her daughter as slutty as she herself is.
Because if she has company in her "dating" habits (or at least, get her daughter to mirror her attitudes about it), then she can think of what she is doing, as not so wrong.
It's rather sick that she would corrupt her 8 year old to do this, but it seems possible that is what is going on.


So, fighting your XW head-on about it, is probably not going to get anywhere, because in her her head, it's probably all about her, not your daughter. Her fighting over your daughter, is "winning against you", and so on.

So, you need to think carefully about your approach to this nasty issue.

Best approach may be to find your D8 some friends her own age who she prefers hanging out with.

Encourage interests she has, that are on "8 year old" level, that would be unappealing to 13 year olds.

[still hopeful]

Scarred,

Thank you very much for all that you wrote to me in response to my post.

I want to clarify that the Sunday of which I referred about D8 making it to Sunday school was actually MY Sunday with D8. I allowed D8 to go with XW and this was the result. I have told XW that it is important to me that our D8 strengthen her faith through attending Sunday school regularly, and that if XW is unwilling to get up and get our D8 to Sunday school, I will certainly come by and get D8 up and dressed to take her. It is THEN that XW tells me that her feelings about D8 attending Sunday school mirror mine and the XW really wants to get there herself. I get your point though, if D8 is not with me I have NO control over whether or not she attends Sunday school on XW's time.

I also believe that, what you DO tells me what is really important to you, NOT what you say. I simply need to WATCH what you do. THAT tells me everything I need to know. I didn't realize what a liar my XW could be, because while we were married, I never questioned her about the validity of much of what she said(I know, probably a dummy me move). Then, we split and the lies came spewing out non-stop, even about things for which lying served no purpose. I could have just been blind in love or the lying could all be new. Who knows? I don't. I know what I suspect.

Regarding Brit(13), I do believe it comes from both trying to hurt me and from her own misplaced efforts to bolster her own lacking sense of self-esteem. I believe that being around that little girl (Brit13) gives XW a triple whammy: (1) a young girl that XW can view herself as 'better than', (2) a kindred spirit who uses her female body to gain 'validation' from men to boost lagging self-esteem; and (3) someone who looks up to XW. My preference would be to NOT have that Brit(13) around my D8. At a minimum, XW and Brit(13) are not planting the seeds of being happy, healthy and whole. They are planting seeds though, and D8 is certainly impressionable.

I don't think Brit(13) is all bad, I just know she is 13 and sexually active. XW's judgment has proved to be suspect, at best, far too often. As I posted previously, my friends told me (1) that XW is like night and day; flip of a switch and a whole different person comes out without warning; all depends on what she needs in the moment; and (2)XW simply wants to get me to agree with her choices to further validate that what she is doing is right. THAT won't happen unless I truly do see what she's doing as being in the best interest of our children.

You may have hit the nail on the head with XW wanting validation of what she does by surrounding herself with people who do similar or worse 'stuff' so that she is not in danger of someone calling her on what she does. My best friend said that about addicts hanging out with addicts, and yes, XW is a recovering drug addict (well, not according to her, her addiction was strictly situational) who learned back then to surround herself with those who wouldn't judge (ahhh, typing this out helps me to realize where her inability to distinguish between right and wrong is rooted!)her. Perhaps that's why so many of her friends are all recovering addicts or addicts. This board helps me to become clearer about my sitch.

Regardless, having Brit(13) around is probably all about me. XW doesn't have good self-esteem, so she finds people who look up to her and uses them to her (XW's) end. Sadly, I don't have control over much of what XW does with D8 until XW gets some real help. I listen to XW tell me how her children are FIRST and I watch her NOT safeguard them from her own faulty judgment of right and wrong. In this instance, it is Brit(13), but there are many more instances. I know that XW uses faulty PC Christian logic of not wanting to judge anything or anyone as right or wrong because she has been influenced by popular culture's view of everything being relative; not right or wrong; not wanting to offend anyone. This goes right along with her addiction culture of not passing judgment on anyone or anything as right or wrong. I am not "hellfire and damnation" kind of Christian, but I certainly do believe in right and wrong, in Orthodoxy.

I want to help XW, but whenever I voice a concern she deflects whatever I say and goes on attack mode. Denial is a powerful thing, especially when you surround yourself with people who are weak-minded or weak-willed or you keep your 'friendships' on the cursory level. Then you never really have to look at you. I closing, right before XW started dating DH#4 (and right after she stopped dating the criminal DH#3) she told me that she had seen a counselor for a year to help her with her self-esteem and looking to men for validation. I asked her, "So you're healed?" She was not happy with my question. She knew that I knew that she was trying to feed me a line of BULL! She's may have moved some, but she still has much to do to solidify her self-esteem.

Oh well. I will love her and wait. Love my children and watch. Help when needed. Until the Lord tells me that I have not made His will my will in my reconciliation efforts.

Tom

[still hopeful]

Scarred,

I didn't finish.

I do encourage 8 year old activities, but unfortunately, when XW has our children she has to be entertained, either by men or in this case a troubled 13 year old girl. I never have this child with me so that is not an issue for D8 when she is with me.

And yes, I do need to tread lightly on many subjects because I have often failed to steer the issue away from WHO is right and towards WHAT is right. THAT is my leadership failure directing the conversation towards as logical and fruitful conclusion. I will focus on changing that now.

Tom

[forward]

SH, You asked me to comment on your thread and I am not sure if I have anything too valuable to add but I will try. I think your W is still angry, but remember that under that anger is a deep hurt. The longer you were with OW, the more devastated W was. Also, I note you have a small child who was likely born or just a baby when you had affair. Perhaps on some level this was the impetus of the affair, too?

This was my situation when H had affair and I can tell you that sitting and crying with a baby is the hardest thing...that and I felt that H neglected her and that hurt me the most deeply.

She has gone on a self-destructive path, perhaps because of her devastation. Deep down she knows this is a self-destructive path and it probably makes her feel even worse about herself. Do not make jokes about her boyfriends. If asked, you can just say "I didn't think he was right for you."

I think I WOULD see the touch as a positive, some movement in the direction of forgiveness. I also see her desire to be around you that night as positive.

I think humility does help, but it is hard to have. You need it for yourself (I need some, too). You're still keeping score: Yeah, I did this damage, but look what SHE did since!

Would you want to go back to that? Probably not.

If you're changing, she is going to have to change her interaction with you, too. You're going to have to be kinder to her than she is to you...and not keep score.


You are still saying "You need to change," too. She is going to have

[still hopeful]

breton39,

You added a great deal of perspective for me. Thank you for your time and insight. You are absolutely right. My keeping score is wrong. In my words, it's stupid, pointless and counterproductive.

I agree that the physical contact (plus her need to lean on me emotionally whenever the mood strikes her) is a sign of some movement in the direction of forgiveness. She insists she has forgiven me, but she punishes me at every opportunity.

I do get the sense that she is looking for me to be compliant with her wayward wishes; for me to get back in line as the spineless husband that she grew accustomed to having. In a strange way, I also believe that her self destructive pattern is in full tow to hurt me, and equally because her self esteem is in the toilet. My affair only torpedoed whatever self-esteem she did have. Nice job, Tom. <Heavy sarcasm!>

To answer your question, 3 months was the length of my affair. I have no good, reasonable, acceptable explanation for my mistake. I was unhappy, we were unhappy, and I took the worst, most cowardly way out. No excuses, no free passes, no acceptable reasons based on the 'history' in our M. I did it. I own it. I'm living with it. As my mother told me, "Time wounds all heels!" How's that for a mom? But then again, my mom says that XW wanted out long before I gave her her 'guilt free' pass out. Dunno. Many times I felt like XW's 'working' on the marriage was that she hadn't divorced me yet. I do know my affair was wrong then, it's wrong today, and it'll be wrong tomorrow.

Regardless, I need to hear from more spouses who have been cheated on so that I will be able to truly grasp the depth of her hurt and devastation. The sad thing is, her threatening me with D and telling me that she needed for me to move out was not uncommon. I believe that how hard my screw up hit her was a surprise and a shock to her. It truly took her by surprise how she felt. I think she thought EVERYTHING regarding the split and subsequent D was going to be easier. More reasons that, I would guess, she isn't willing to forgive me, although that could be from my score keeping. Again, be that as it may, I love that woman dearly and wish for the opportunity to make our marriage what we dreamed it would be when we began.

I have done a great deal of personal reflection and growth as a man over the past 3 years. I realize that I lacked some masculine or manly qualities to adequately keep stoked the fires of attraction in her for me that she had in the beginning. I have made concerted efforts to improve myself and I think I've done a good job up until now. I'm not done though. My work on me is my gift to me, to my children, and to whomever is the next partner in my life (if there ever is one), hopefully her.

I also realize that XW needs to grow in her own ways, and I am NOT keeping score here. I can't change her. Only she can herself and if she won't, then my hopes for reconciliation are futile. I realize that I will not take our M back as it was because THAT is simply a recipe for disaster. We both had/have work to do on ourselves and we both needed to place our M first and fight for the M, first and foremost; not fight for our own individual, selfish wants and needs.

Thank you for pointing out something that should be at the forefront of my mind regarding XW. She is still angry and still deeply hurt by my betrayal. I will not make any more denigrating comments about her BFs. If asked, I will be polite and short with my answers.

Thank you for your thoughts on the touch and her desire to be in my presence that night as a positive. One thing that I found nice that night was when she said she needed to be around her family and she did not go out of her way to exclude me from that circle by verbally erecting her own impenetrable boundary. She HAS done 'stuff' like that in the past, but she chose not to do so that evening.

You are correct in my needing to grow my humility and to keep it on display in my interactions with others, but with her especially. My score keeping and my air of superiority from keeping score needs to stop today, as I did what I did, and at a minimum it led XW seeking and securing a D.

One last point that you made: you are right, I do need to be kinder than she is, and I usually am. But it's the second one that hit me between the eyes. I need to stop keeping score. We are not coming at each other from the same marital 'level.' My affair did put ME under water and because of my infidelity and the ensuing shock and pain that followed FOR HER, I have not earned her trust back, as of yet. I read recently in Torn Asunder (about affairs, Christian based book)that trust is regained through consistent behavior over time, mathematically reading, trust = CB/T. Thank you for illuminating that my keeping score is counterproductive to EVERYTHING that I have worked for for nearly 3 years. I am undermining myself; being my own biggest hurdle, and THAT is most likely why she hasn't softened and forgiven my transgression.

Thank you, you added a great deal of value to my thread and to me.

Sincerely,
Tom

[forward]

I am glad I helped, although I wish I could help my own situation!

"She insists she has forgiven me, but she punishes me at every opportunity."

You must not respond as if she is punishing you. She still doesn't trust you and lashes out because it is safer to do that.

[still hopeful]

breton39,

Thank you again, breton. I appreciate the time you took out of your day to write to me again.

I do understand that lashing out at me is safer for her. She is sooo angry and hurt still. That's understandable. Additionally, I have figured out that my NOT responding to her lashing out at me is my best response option. I have fared the best in dealing with her anger towards me by staying calm and staying present; deciding not to escalate an already volatile situation, even if I am hurt be her behavior/words. I have gotten better at it with practice.

REAL TIME HAPPENINGS (that may positively affect my efforts to reconcile with XW or many not):

Thursday night was a very sad evening for XW because of a HUGE fight she had with her mother. They have a long standing mother-daughter history of antagonism, anger, disagreements and disappointments. XW texts me near midnight to tell me that the fight happened.

I did what I always do with her. I told her to call me if she needed to talk. She did call, but we only spoke for a moment. Very upset. Last night was very interesting for me processing all of the 'events' with XW.

XW asked me to come over tonight play Scrabble. I knew that she didn't care so much about Scrabble and that her reasons were (1) she was still very upset about the fight with her mother, (2) that she didn't want to be alone, even though our children are present ('loneliness' has been a common feeling for her since we split, despite the children being in her presence), (3) that she wanted assistance in tending to our children and putting our children to bed, and/or (4) she actually wanted to just be with me.

That last reason has been happening with more frequency lately, however, I keep my thoughts, feelings and what I 'know' in check because XW is currently in between BFs (which causes her to soften some towards me, plus I've seen this is a pattern before). AND, she did just have a big fight with Mom. LOTS of factors to consider to help keep myself sane.

All I can DO for her right now is to be supportive, loving and helpful. While I was talking with XW, last night about her mother, read an email to me that she sent to her mother. In that e-mail, she told her mother that she and I are the two most abusive people she knows. <Ouch!>

BOMBSHELL:
After XW vented for quite a while, I interjected that I was sad that she still viewed me in the same negative light. It wasn't an angry conversation, and she did open up to me. She told me that she loves still me, and always will (yes, I am aware that this sounds cliche). She also told me that she doesn't really see herself marrying someone else because she can't see herself giving all of her to another again. Lastly, she said she can't see herself having children with someone else in the future. In the last couple of days, she told me that if she and I had stayed together, we'd have had at least 4 children.

Much of what XW divulged was new information to me. Good information. It was real information; not just having a feeling of mine or relying on my intuition, no matter how accurate my feelings have been since we split. Again, I do know that I have to keep myself and my feelings in check.

I don't have the ability to reconcile my M on my own. But I certainly do have the ability to close the door on the possibility of our reconciling all on my own. (<--THAT's a lot of power and responsibility) As I told her last night, I strive to create as many new positive experiences together, as possible, going forward so that the old negative ones, while not forgotten, will be prioritized in her memory recall BEHIND the positive, newer experiences. It's not about forgetting. It's all about creating new, better, loving, positive experiences to overwrite the bad data that sometimes overwhelms us.

Well, that was all for yesterday. A lot of information. Most of it very good. I will pray. I will post. I will read. I wish everyone here well in their journeys.

Tom