Interesting day so far. When the kids came into our bedroom this morning, they came over very happily cheering "Daddy, daddy, you are here!". Apparently she had told them that my flight had been canceled, but of course she did not know that I had made the flight before, which left after my original flight. So she got up and made some coffee, while I was still busy with the kids.
After breakfast, she went grocery shopping. It used to drive me crazy that she always does that on the weekends when I am home. She says she cannot do it with the kids (which I understand), but she does not do it when the kids are at school. But I really do not care anymore. I actually thought it was great, 2 hours alone with the kids. After lunch we went to the parent conferences together. We did not look at each other the whole time, but what we heard was good news. Our D5 is doing great in kindergarten, and our S8 is doing much better than last year around this time. There is some room for improvement, but the message is more like he could do much better if he worked a little harder (in other words: he is a bit lazy, which confirms my suspicion).
The bad news is nothing has changed. A lot of tension, chilly temperatures. The good news is it does not affect me at all. I do not care anymore. My PMA is at work and I feel good. I am as friendly as I can (carried all the groceries in and down to the basement), smile once in a while, and wait patiently for her to start conversations other than the bare necessities. I feel like I am smiling all the time, but cannot show it too obviously. It just feels good.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
As expected my W started the conversation last night. I did not really know what I expected in terms of how the conversation went, but she did the usual thing of accusing me of not being a good father, not being a good husband etc etc. I validated my a$$ off, but also slipped a few times (no surprise as we talked 3 hours plus).
After a while she finally came to the topic she really wanted to address: the custody question. I told her I am going to do what I feel I have to do. I am preparing to move on with my life, with or without her. I told her I wanted to be there for the kids when they grow up, I wanted to see them have success in school, sports or anywhere else, I wanted to see them bring home their first girl-/boy-friend, when they graduate. I just wanted to be there for them. She goes like "All of a sudden?". This is where I think I may have slipped, because I said "We can ask them who they want as a father. Me or someone you picked?" Then she goes like I would keep her hostage, while I said I felt I could not trust her right now. That led to the conversation about OM. I told her that I felt that he was the reason why she wanted the divorce. She denied that (more about that later). He would only give her the emotional support she needed right now (especially with the death of her aunt and her mom's health issues). She still denies it is an EA. I asked why it had to be OM (and not any of her female friends) to give her the emotional support she needed. She did not really answer that question, neither did I expect her to. It went back and forth for a while, me mostly validating, her mostly accusing me of things that happened years ago. One question I asked her was if she had anything positive to say about me. She said I was a hard worker. I thought to myself that was not the reason you married me, but did not say anything.
She told me she had plans to visit her family in Germany in spring. I told her that it would have to be without the kids right now, unless I could see some progress in rebuilding trust (which really meant - and I believe she understood that - that she would end the EA). To show her my willingness to work on that, I offered her to at least renew our D5's passport after Xmas. That did not mean she could take them with her, but it just meant I am making a step towards her and opened the door for her a little more. It was her decision to go through the door.
I also mentioned Retrouvaille again and told her that if we went there, I would be sure it would build the trust we needed. She said she was not sure she could meet the prerequisites right now, i.e. no contact. So, I said, then you finally admit that he is the reason for the divorce. Maybe that is not what I should have said as a good DBer, but it came right out of mouth, and she looked at me like she had been caught with a lie.
I am unsure where this will go. I feel like after letting go the rope completely over the last 4 weeks, I picked it up and asked her to pick it up as well. Time will tell whether she will do so. She did not say no, but, of course, she will need time to make that decision. I believe the hardest thing for her will be to let go of OM, even though she does not admit that. Overall I feel OK with what I accomplished. I was able to set boundaries while still reaching out to her. Now it will be her turn to do something.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
I don't think you slipped too bad. The #1 thing to avoid is looking desperate or clingy. I don't sense any of that from your post.
I kind of like your quote about asking the kids who they want for father. Sure, we need to keep these conversations rational and civil... so can't let many of these sneak in. But making an occasional point through a little zinger that makes them think is not the worst.
I would like to suggest that you think about the role of the OM in your conversations. It seems like you consider it to be the central issue in the R right now. It's a big, big deal for you. But she doesn't even see the OM as an OM. To her, he is just a friend who happens to be male.
From her perspective, your comments seem overblown and borderline irrational. It makes you look insecure in her eyes, because you are clearly threatened by this guy who is only a friend. And, last, you look controlling to her... you are trying to demand who her friends should be.
Those things are all bad and work against you.
In my opinion, you should make a consious effort to suppress all talk about the OM. I've seen other people on this forum post that the LBS needs to 'outshine' the OP via their actions instead of trying to control the OM out of the WAW's life.
It also seems like you have the feeling 'if it weren't for the OM, my wife would be happy in her M and things would be good'. I generally view the OP as a <symptom>, not a cause. If your R were stronger with W, then OM wouldn't exist. If you actually manage to force the OM out of wife's life, then she would just find another. I read the quote: "OP's are like terrorists... kill one and another pops up".
Keep up the good work! Your conversation went well and these are just suggestions for the future.
My thread, Carpe Diem #4 Orig Thread: Carpe Diem #1
I probably slipped a few more times than the ones I have mentioned, but overall it went probably OK. You have definitely made a few good observations regarding OM, but there are also a few things I should probably add:
When I tried to confirm the EA, I found a couple of e-mails. The language and content of those e-mails leave no doubt that OM is not just a penpal who happens to be male. There were ILYs and dreams of a future together. Not sure how to handle that other than to set the boundaries I discussed with her last night. I agree with you that OM is a symptom of what went wrong in our M, but at the same time I believe that as long as OM is in the picture, reconciliation will be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Outshining him is certainly one way to achieve it, but I think that is much more difficult with an EA than a PA, especially with such a distance between them. He does not have to deal with her moods, and vice versa. They will never talk or e-mail each other when they are grumpy. The only strategy that I have been applying is complete detachment, which again is not easy while she is still in the house. What makes it even worse is her personal situation with her aunt and her mother. While OM can provide her with the full emotional support she is looking for, I know that it is the last thing she wants from me. I accept that, but I also realize that it makes outshining OM even harder.
One other background detail that might be important is that IMO emotionally she is very dependent. She has not been without a R since she was 16. She always went from one R to the next (with only one exception - and that was ours, she was single for a few months before that). So I believe if OM is out of the picture, she would be much more interested in our M. This would not solve all our problems, but it would be an opportunity to work on them through MC, Retrouvaille or something else.
Maybe I am overanalyzing the situation, but I am convinced that even though OM is not the root cause, he is a major obstacle to progress. Since I cannot control that, I will try to make progress on preparing for a life without her. Maybe once she realizes that, it will click...
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
I have had a busy couple of days. On Sunday afternoon I went to a cub scout meeting with my S8. Lots of holiday singing, for which I am not really in the mood, but it does not bother me as much as it did 2 or 3 weeks ago. So I really feel a lot more grounded and I can laugh again. Sunday night, I watched the season finale of Survivor. Another great season is behind us, that is really the only thing that makes me sad.
On Monday morning, I traveled back to my project. One of my friends, who is also on this project, but usually at a different location, is here with me this week for the first time after the bomb. So we chatted, and while I was telling him some of the details, it became clear to me (just by talking about it, not by anything he said) how ridiculous W's plans are. The way I interpret her plans right now is, yes, she wants a family, but she wants to replace the husband and father in this picture, because he is the root cause for her unhappiness. Is that considered MLC? It also tells me that she does not accept any of the responsibility for what happened, while I have been putting a lot of the blame on myself. I did not listen, I hurt her feelings, I made her feel like I did not care. All this I understand and accept as my fault, but it is only 100% of 50% of the total blame to be distributed. Can anyone chime in and tell me when this typically changes with a WAW? I do not mean after so many weeks or months, but rather what are the steps WAS need to take before they realize that all this was caused by their own doing as well?
I have been thinking a lot about the conversation with W on Saturday night. I told her we would get a new passport for our D5 after Xmas, but right now I am not sure I still want to do it. There is still a huge trust issue. I even thought to myself she might go to Retrouvaille with me with no intention to work on our M, but to work on me, to soften me, so she can finally get the D her way. Is this crazy? She keeps saying things like asking me to be reasonable, she even offered to make the D cheaper if I agreed with her on the custody issue. I know I am supposed to ignore anything she says, but it is hard for me to believe that this is not her current mindset. And it makes it even harder to trust her with anything. I guess I will have to observe and come to a decision that I feel comfortable with.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
The fastest way for WAW to realize things aren't all your fault is a seperation.
This is a phase I had to go through in my sitch before things could turn for the better. At first, wife was sure that I was the source of all her problems and that things would be wonderful once she was rid of me.
Of course, you can't use words to convince WAW that this isn't true. They just won't listen no matter how hard you try. But then they move out and they see for themselves.
Now, at first, I still helped my wife after she moved out. So her life wasn't too bad. And when something went wrong she was able to convince herself that it was still my fault because I was still around. For example, I fixed her computer once. But then something totally unrelated went wrong a few days later. Guess who got blamed?
So I finally went semi-dark and stopped offerring to fix any of her problems. Bingo... after about a month of this her life sucked and she started to realize that maybe it wasn't me. She started to realize that perhaps she had issues!
So... About you:
Certainly you can't allow her to go back to Germany w\kids. But would it be possible for you to talk her into moving out into someplace local?
My thread, Carpe Diem #4 Orig Thread: Carpe Diem #1
I have to echo what Techguy said: separation. I am not as far along with my H as Techguy is with his wife but just yesterday my H sent me a long email telling me our problems are not all my fault. He said, "now that I have to face myself each day, with no one else around to blame..."
I have known in my gut that the only way he would see this was to leave me. Does not mean he will come back but it is a step in the right direction.
As for you, maybe Techguy is on to something, is it possible for you and W to separate locally? You could set a trial period perhaps?
Thank you for your insight, techguy and Beth. As a matter of fact, I have been thinking about separation myself. What has held me back is our exchange student who will leave on Jan 5 and my job situation that I am trying to change, but it will take some time. I still travel 4 days every week, and I do not want to set a precedence with her taking the kids, because I cannot handle them. But maybe with her taking the kids for the 4 days I travel and me the other 3 days, it might work. Need to think that through. Anything you can add?
The other option I had been considering was to file for divorce myself, but I abandoned that, simply because I want to delay it as long as possible. I believe time works for me, not against me.
The other thing I just happened to find out is that W is meeting with a female friend of hers today (by now they are probably done). She is divorced and currently dealing with a messy custody battle with her WAH (the whole nine yards including PA). On the one side, I hope this friend is going to confirm for her that she has no chance taking the kids with her to Germany, on the other hand she might also give her the picture of living alone and living alone with the kids.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
I did not want to hijack Techguy's thread. Can you explain how to cut and paste the threads in more detail? I am embarassed to admit I still don't get it.
