Well, I'll jump in here...I think it's a matter of how it starts to be turned into doing this 180 to "reel her in"..etc. Smacks of manipulation. What if she read these posts? She'd say, oh Neil was just avoiding my texts to manipulate me. That would be just like Neil... Do you see what I'm saying?
And I think, Neil, you have to keep a constant guard on your heart...if you are working in therapy on dealing with narcissism. The tendency to manipulate for the other person to do what you want is something, for you personally, to be careful about. So I guess motivation is what's critical.
I will ditto what Phoenix had to say about that. I also bumped his post on the LRT.
Q: Is it "manipulation" to use strategies and tactics that have been shown to be effective? Aren't "180s", GAL, LRT and all of the other DB techniques, in fact, "manipulation" in that they are deliberately employed by the left-behind spouse in order to solicit a positive reaction from their wayward spouse and hopefully save their marriage?
breakaway...i hear ya. i'm not trying to manipulate her one bit. i want her to realize that i'm not gonna be there all the time for her like i have in the past 10 months. that i'm moving forward with my life....
i'm not sure how to explain it any better than that.
each sitch is different, obviously, she comes closer to me when i appear to draw away..or she becomes more interested in me when i don't respond as quickly. this is what works. i'm not going out of my way to ignore her. part of me thought that her email didn't necessarily warrant a response. kinda like she was doing an FYI.
ME:32 WAW:31 D #1: 3.5 D #2: 2 Together: 13 M:6 Bomb Dropped: 2/15/08 Sep legally: 6/18/08
"Tommorrow there'll be sunshine, and all this darkness past..." -Bruce Springsteen Land of Hope and Dreams
each sitch is different, obviously, she comes closer to me when i appear to draw away..or she becomes more interested in me when i don't respond as quickly. this is what works.
It's also Human Nature.
For the record, I personally think this is very sad, that people are this way. It makes me sad to think that "nice guys finish last," and that women don't respond to the "Mr. Nice Guy" as described in NMMNG. It shouldn't be this way.
Q: Is it "manipulation" to use strategies and tactics that have been shown to be effective? Aren't "180s", GAL, LRT and all of the other DB techniques, in fact, "manipulation" in that they are deliberately employed by the left-behind spouse in order to solicit a positive reaction from their wayward spouse and hopefully save their marriage?
Damn ... I was going to give myself a break from posting today but this is a great topic.
The theory in DBing is that Neil shouldn't be sitting by the phone waiting to avoid a call or text. Neil should be doing something that is taking precedence. IMO, he's still not detached. If he was detached we would be missing the calls/sms accidentally and returning them when he has time.
He has to look at his sitch and notice what's working. That's one of the basic principles of DBing. Stop doing things that aren't working. If he's always available and W is manipulating him by asking for smokes (among other things), he needs to cut that out and let her know that he will not be available when D happens.
Most importantly, Neil needs to be making these changes for him. To get active and detach from W.
some of it is behavior modification...a protection of our feelings of a sort. I was always terribly hurt whenever my W wouldn't or doesn't respond to me being the "Nice guy"
s0.....i'm sorta protecting myself...
ME:32 WAW:31 D #1: 3.5 D #2: 2 Together: 13 M:6 Bomb Dropped: 2/15/08 Sep legally: 6/18/08
"Tommorrow there'll be sunshine, and all this darkness past..." -Bruce Springsteen Land of Hope and Dreams
Well, I'll jump in here...I think it's a matter of how it starts to be turned into doing this 180 to "reel her in"..etc. Smacks of manipulation. What if she read these posts? She'd say, oh Neil was just avoiding my texts to manipulate me. That would be just like Neil... Do you see what I'm saying?
And I think, Neil, you have to keep a constant guard on your heart...if you are working in therapy on dealing with narcissism. The tendency to manipulate for the other person to do what you want is something, for you personally, to be careful about. So I guess motivation is what's critical.
I will ditto what Phoenix had to say about that. I also bumped his post on the LRT.
Hey Breakaway - Thanks for the post back. I see what you are saying and can understand. But I think in Neil's and my sitch - it was more of enough is enough. I know my attitude is if this is what you want - to be single, free and independent than go do it and leave me out of it. You broke my heart - so leave me alone. You made the choice, not me. If you an't do that, than maybe it's not really what you want. Being single means no more significant other to fall back on.
With Neil - he and I text a lot to each other. I was sensing that he was just feeling like a doormat. And believe me, that is one thing I can appreciate. His W has an OM already - why is she asking Neil to do things for her?? I started to feel better about myself when I stopped taking it. So I was just offering Neil a different approach that helped me feel better. It honestly didn't improve my sitch at all. But it made me feel like I was getting a life.
This stuff is hard - no question.
Last edited by mulesqb; 12/11/0804:57 PM.
M 43 W 44 M 17 T 22 S16,12,9 Bomb 2/05/08 I served her 1/06/09 S'd 3/15/09 D'd 12/21/09
"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.
I don't think I said he should be a doormat or do things for his wife or anything else. He shouldn't. I wouldn't have gotten her one more cigarette after she left.
I just said keep watch on your motivations. That's all. If you're cool about that, then you're cool.
I just say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't mean other things.
[I started to feel better about myself when I stopped taking it. So I was just offering Neil a different approach that helped me feel better. It honestly didn't improve my sitch at all. But it made me feel like I was getting a life.
Fascinating discussion!
I do think that both "efficacy" and "does this help ME?" has to be factored into the equation, along with "what does my WAS need?" To ONLY "make it all about her" might meet the "efficacy" standard, but at what cost to the betrayed spouse's self-esteem and emotional health??
I'm not saying I have a good answer to that -- only that it needs to be factored into the equation and debate.
