Wow...I had a lesson in relationship tonight just by sitting in a cafe and trying to get some work done...after I was there about one hour, a couple sat down next to me and launched right into talking about their relationship - she said she didn't know why they were there, he told her what she thought...she said she wanted to be able to rely on him more, he asked her if she has any friends she relies on more than she relies on him, she said she wanted to be listened to more and didn't want him to tell her what she thinks, he said he doesn't tell her what she thinks...
It was an amazingly sad conversation to hear, because it was so very obvious that their potential for reconciliation was doomed. Not once in the entire time they sat there did he validate her words - instead he tried to out-maneuver her with his "wit and wisdom." It was strange how much he seemed to think that sounding smart was what would win her over - and that telling her what she thought and felt would somehow make her see things his way...and it was also painful to realize that I used to do the exact same thing...
Hearing them made me think that, no matter what happens with my M, I never want to be that kind of man again - he sounded arrogant, indifferent, obsessed with power and control, and completely disrespectful...and so damn familiar that it drove me crazy...just before they sat down next to me I was reading a journal entry from December 2005 - from the week before my wife had her affair - and it was filled with comments about how I did not trust her, did not feel comfortable in her love, etc...here's a paragraph from that journal entry:
"Let’s see – what does W get from this relationship? rent, clothes, food, material things, more income than her own, and the freedom (at least as she sees it/takes it) not to have to work very often. What else? Not much – so that’s easy for her to replace – and maybe she’s becoming more aware of that. What do I get from this marriage? Love? Not really. Support? Not at all. Any material advantages? No. I know this marriage is a mistake – I know that it won’t last more than a few years – if that – any yet I’m too stupid to just make it plain that I would rather take care of myself without her."
I read this and see that I had become resentful - and was pushing her away - and as I pushed her away, I was surprised that she pulled away more - and so I pushed her further away and the terrible cycle continued...until she finally had her affair just two days after I wrote that paragraph...I was angry and hurt - and felt used and taken advantage of...but does that justify her having an affair? She says it does...so too did our MC - who said that I pushed her into it...(I could not believe that our MC said that)...
Well...that's it for now...I have work to do...and want to clear my head of my W before I go to bed...
Anyone reading any good books these days? -Carlos.
Not once in the entire time they sat there did he validate her words - instead he tried to out-maneuver her with his "wit and wisdom." It was strange how much he seemed to think that sounding smart was what would win her over - and that telling her what she thought and felt would somehow make her see things his way...and it was also painful to realize that I used to do the exact same thing...
h was doing this exact thing to me last night. Drives me nuts.
I asked him playfully what he was doing a la "whatcha doin'?" (he was reading a book - he hardly ever reads a book). He said 'reading'. I sighed on the inside adn continued with the playfulness "whatcha readin'?". He said 'a book'. It's like I have to pry every tiny bit of information out of him.
This is after he picked d7 up for me from her friends place so I had been able to go to water polo training. Apparently d7 and her friend A, were being silly and d7 wouldn't leave when it was time to go. They've got this annoying habit of clutching onto each other and saying nononono... and carrying on stupid. Anyway, I dare say h isn't used to this behaviour - when I see it I just say stuff like "Oh well, I guess A won't be coming over tomorrow then if you're not going to let go and come home right now". That soon gets her moving. But oh no....h had to rouse on her so she was busily trying not to get in more trouble when she got home. Then he growled at her for taking what he thought was too long to brush her teeth. I said disbelievingly, 'she's brushing her teeth!' (ie it's good that she's brushing them for a long time - and mind you we are not talking extravagant amounts of time here). He (surprisingly) grunted, "fair enough" and then went to the lounge room where he got all growly about bits of glitter left on the couch from d7 playing with her makeup the other day. She had made a mess with the glitter, she had already gotten into trouble from me and I made her clean it up by using the sticky side of masking tape to pick it up. He carried on a bit about it and then said something like "if she can't use make up properly then she won't be using it at all". *roll eyes* She's 7! It's play makeup. How would she possibly know how to 'use it properly'. Control freak. bah....
sorry venting
** Purple
As soon as you trust yourself you will know how to live. Goethe
Carlos, it's amazing how familiar all our stories are. And how predictable some things seem to us now, after going through what we we have been through. It's sad that while we are learning -we are really learning- we cant "give" this knowledge to people that are even close to us, friends etc.(let alone strangers in a cafe) to help avoid unneccessary pain and sadness...
Going back and reading your diary is a way of learning. I used to write letters to myself and H that he never got where I was decsribing the same thing over and over again : how lonely I felt in that marriage. What I realise now is, that I wasn't communicating it this in a right way. At least not in the end. I just quit and gave up trying and hoped he would approach me to find out why I was this way. He he withdrew completely and we started just ...coparenting.
I hope your day is going fine, thanks for checking on me, hugs back at ya & xxxx K
So...here's the question I have...and this is what weighs on me heavily...how does one strike the balance between detaching and just plain giving up? The night before she moved out she told me that she doesn't know what happens next, and that if we do stay together we would have to start over again - and that conversation creeps into my head sometimes...and I think...okay...so there's a chance...but then I look at her - and how she's dealing with things and how she acts toward me - and I think...even if there is a chance, I have to move on with my life - and do what I have to do for me...
The truth is that her mom coming down here and throwing money at the problem just really bothers me - since it's just such a typical way of prolonging the inevitable - that reality will hit my W hard one day...and she will be in a lot of pain...and I know there's nothing I can do about that - and there's nothing I can say or do to help her - but how does on detach - move on - and not just say, f**k it, it's over.
I don't want to see anyone new...but I know that in a few months that might change...and if it does...and if I do just think of my W as a non-factor in my life - what then? She may never change - or she may decide that what she's done - in breaking up our family - is what she needed to do - and then where does that leave me if I just "go on with my life" - but don't allow myself to meet someone new? Do I give myself a deadline - just for my own sake? Say, six months, and then open myself up to the possibility of meeting someone else?
The thing is...I value our vows...and until we're divorced, I feel like I am married to her - she is my wife, I am her husband...and I want to honor that until it's explicitly over...so maybe that's the answer to my question...honor my wife and my marriage until it's explicitly over...and do my best to tune out my friends and family that tell me it is over - and that it ended when she moved out - and that I should go out on a date...
I have to admit...the loneliness is hard sometimes...but maybe that's just why I should deal with it for a while longer - until I don't have that loneliness when I'm by myself - and instead I am fully comfortable in my own company - and don't "need" someone to fill that gap for me...and until I heal more - and find comfort in my solitude (not loneliness)- I should just continue to work on me - taking care of my kids - and offering my detached love to my wife...all the while knowing that I was unhappy before she dropped the bomb - and I wanted things to change and get better for us - and that if they can't improve - it will be best for both of us to move on with separate lives - bonded only by our love for our baby...
You have some very good questions. I know for me I still love my Husband even if things are 'broken' for us right now. So I could never date anyone until I am divorced, and even then I am sure it will be weird at first.
Take your time. I think it is good to get comfortable with being on your own first...........
Carlos I can also see myself was behaving the same way the M from the cafe. I never really listened to her. This is something that I am working on. I know you are not happy with MIL saving her problems again with $$$. At the end, these are her problems and you can only watch from the sideline. Like you said, she will has her reality check sooner or later. Honestly, do you still see her as your W? Or she is just mother of your child. All of us, we will keep live our life to the fullest and hopefully one day our WAS will decide to come along to create a new R because the old one is not worth keeping/saving. We can not predict the future. You will not know when you will fall in love again. It could be your W or another lucky woman. I won't put a time line in anything. That's just my personal opinion. I rather just take it one day at a time. When you feel like you are ready to 'Move on', then you are ready. It could be tomorrow, next week or years....Only you WILL know. Don't sweat on it..
Take care Shifu
NW626
Me:33 STBXW:38 S:3 It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you fight the fight....!!
Hi BobbiJo - I noticed that I addressed you as BBK once on your thread...made me laugh, since I think it was just me remembering that I once had a girlfriend named BobbiJo - though her last name began with a K...she was my first girlfriend...seventh grade...
I love my wife too - and know that she's in a very dark place - and that she'll have to find a way to heal. The truth is, I don't think I could date anyone until we're divorced - or until she tells me that there's no chance of it working out and she is completely unwilling to try...until then, I will work on me - and focus on getting better at being on my own...maybe after I go a few months without crying in the middle of the day/morning, then I'll know that I'm okay and then I'll be healthy enough to be in a relationship...until that point, I think I'll just keep working on the many parts of my life that I've suddenly realized are in dire need of attention...on that front, I'm signing up to take a Japanese class in January...something I've always wanted to do.
NW - Yes, reality will catch up to her sooner or later - even if her mother does keep throwing money at the problem. You're so very right about the need to live each day to the fullest - and that's a way to give gifts to yourself - so that no matter what happens it doesn't feel like wasted time - it's time that's used to strengthen ourselves, etc, instead of time in which we sit around wondering what will happen next for our spouses.
Do I still see her as my W? That's a tough question...I do think of her as my wife - but the person I see isn't the person I married...or the person I've been with over the last nine years...She's certainly become a stranger...but I know that there's someone in there that I love - it's just a different kind of love that doesn't make me yearn for her or want to keep her nearby - rather it's a love that hopes the best for her...no matter what that is...so...yes...I do still think of her as my wife. So far as I know there hasn't been an OM - though I think there was a hint of an EA early on - but nothing came of it, as I think the EA object proved less impressive than she expected...especially when she told me about how he criticized her one day...the thing about her EA's is that they're almost always paternal - like an attachment she has to the father figure she wishes she had - and it's hardly ever someone that I would be threatened by or jealous of...
The problem, though, is that since she would get into these inappropriate relationships with awkward, kind of outcast men without boundaries and respect for her - they would often just get lost in the idea of having the attention of a beautiful woman - and they would push their friendship to sexual conversations - and she would forgive it...and make excuses for it - and even went so far as to tell me recently that I'm the only one that has problems with those kinds of friendships - since people flirt like that all the time...which I thought was just crazy...the few times I've had women flirt with me sexually I made it clear right way that there were boundaries - that I was married - and that I didn't get into that kind of talk...not so with my wife...and the truth is that it's not so with her parents either...both of whom get way too carried away with their sexual flirtations with people...SIL once even told me that their mom embarrassed her with how much she was "all over a guy" at a company party...
Why did my mind go there...maybe it's just something else I have to process and let go of...I had always taken her inappropriate relationships as a lack of respect for our relationship/marriage - and I still think of it that way...though her defending it does remind me that I also wasn't very happy before the bomb dropped...heck...the easy thing to do would be for me to contact a lawyer and just start the process myself...but since I don't do that, I know that I still love her...and, yes, despite the many problems we have....I still think of her as my wife...I just don't know why I do....
Purple, Vent away! Sounds like he's got to work on his parenting skills...and finding some patience. My W acts that way with my S11 - though she doesn't seem to have that kind of problem with our baby (yet).
I'm trying to remember something about control freaks that I read just recently...but I can't place it yet...It was something about how men that control are expressing an insecurity...which book was it? I'll have to check and get back to you.
Does not having expectations help one deal with a control freak? I wonder...my control freak is no longer a resident in the house so I don't get much of a chance to experiment with tactics...I do know that when she used to try to tell my S11 how to do things I would sometimes just have to laugh about it - and turn it into some kind of joke...otherwise it would just annoy me too much...oh...the laughter was usually with the hope of helping her see the extremes in her own words or actions...but I didn't always have the patiences to look for humor...sometimes i just said, please, he's a child, you're an adult, remember the difference...which never went over well....
Carlos my friend, I had to laugh a bit when you said:
Quote:
no matter what happens with my M, I never want to be that kind of man again - he sounded arrogant, indifferent, obsessed with power and control, and completely disrespectful...and so damn familiar that it drove me crazy
Welcome to the club!
We have all been there and it is so different once you "see the light." It will never be the same.
See as much as it is easy to think that DBing is to "save our marriages" it is really to save ourselves and hope we can save the marriage too.
You have learned a tremendous amout about yourself that you will not repeat in the future. That is and will continue to make you a better man. Now, if you are able to get your M back on track, then you'll be a better H and partner to W. If not, then you'll continue to find yourself and then find the right person for you.
It really is simple if you break it down and can actually see it. I'm glad you're now here. It is a big step to help you w/your growth and change.
Also, I got your FB message, and I'm so glad my post was able to help you at that moment. I was drawn to write you and comment at that time, so things do happen for a reason, my friend.
Now, you did say things that made it sound like you were taking some blame for the issues in your M, so I want to make sure you aren't taking on too much here.
I'm pretty straight forward and I think you appreciate that about me, so I'll lay it out for you on this topic. Your breakthrough yesterday was critical for your movement forward. Did you do things that pushed your W away? Absolutely. In fact, we all did our things that helped push the other one away. However, now you recognize this and can and will make a real effort toward permanent, lasting change.
However, don't allow yourself to take the blame for your W's affair or anything else she's pushing back on to you. You are only responsible for you. You are taking stock and accountability and making changes for the better. Now she has to live up to her end of the deal and look herself in the mirror.
For all of our faults in our relationships, we are, and could only ever be, half of the problem. The other half is our partner's to own up to.
Don't forget while the football field is 100 yards long, you are only responsible for your half of the field. Your W has to cover her half and be willing to meet you at the 50 for things to work b/t you two in the future.
Ok, your last question asked about the difference b/t detaching and "giving up" and it can be tricky. To me, detaching would be to "drop the emotional rope" and not let her have control of your reactions. To detach means you'll need to be able to not be bothered by what she's doing and really not being interested either.
Instead, you just focus on yourself and your son. The rest of her life is up to her. See, when you detach, you move on w/your life and work on becomming a better, more complete, healthier you. If your W wants to join you, she'll catch up.
You don't wait for her, but instead keep living as if you were w/out her before. Still care, still love, but don't wait on her or answer her beck and call. Remember, she walked out, so she did forfeit the right to depend on your for support. If she wants support from you again, she'll need to be willing to work on herself and your M.
Be a friend, but not a nosy, over-involved friend. Act like one of those ones that are "fringe" friends, but not real hangout buddies.
Again, it is just my advice, but that is how I see detaching. I hope it makes sense.
As for giving up, you'll know when you want to move forward. Time will let you know and there may be one day where you simply wake up and say, "I'm done waiting" or that day may never come. Again, there is no time table, but only time passing.
