Stage 2.25

[istherehope]

So,

I had gone to town today where I ran loads of errands. H went to the gym and the way it was timed we were apart for about 8 hours. When H got home, he asked me to come downstairs. I did and he started telling me about this trip that his company is paying for (it's a trip for 2 to either the US, Brazil or Portugal and I have known about it for months and was hoping he'd ask me). He also mentioned needing to go to Mexico in January. Now I might have done something a little anti-DBing when he mentioned the Mexico trip, but in some respects I think I need to say more than I have been. So I said "yes I know and I was hoping to go too." At first he said "let's just see," to which I said OK, but then he asked, "so would you really want to go?"; I said that of course I would as this was a family function and I love his family too. I think in the past he has always felt that I haven't placed the priority on family that he has, so I think it was a good thing for me to say that. Then he talked about flying to San Diego first to see some cousin of his, and talked about how much the flights would cost. There is an overall trip allowance of 2000E, so he said I should look into going to Brazil in March, and see what this would cost! To make a long story short, I let him know about some airline credits we have, and how it would be feasible to do both. As I still want to make sure to give space, I talked about going to Seattle for a week on my own first, then meeting him in San Diego. He even mentioned me staying with his mother while in Seattle! Now I am not going to do that, but the fact that he once again sees me as integrated into this part of his life is truly massive.

So we sat upstairs together and talked about different flight options for quite awhile. Today I had also bought the book on the Czech Republic, and he saw the book (I didn't mention it), and started looking through it on his own. He kept telling me about things from the book, and found some really nice restaurant in Prague that he wanted me to look up online. So, I looked up the menu, and he came to sit next to me while I did this, and at once point rested his head on my shoulder! He then said we should take my ex and his GF to this restaurant for hosting us, and that we should make reservations before we get there.

So after this I was cooking, and he came into the kitchen and HUGGED me, a real hug, not one of those brief hugs. In fact I felt a little uncomfortable as I wasn't sure when I should pull away. I wanted to melt, but kept myself in check. H went downstairs to play video games, and I asked him if I should just bring him a plate of food when it was ready. He said yes, but then a few minutes later said no that he wanted to eat upstairs.

I do think H has been thinking about things a lot lately, and it was weird how he really wanted to tell me about the Brazil trip and it was as if he was bursting to do so when he got home from the gym. I had never forgotten that he had this trip available but he must have been thinking about whether to travel with me for awhile. Just a few other random positive things. Our cats have been damaging the leather couches in our apartment by scratching them. H tells them to stop and I mentioned that the couches were already ruined. He said "then we can train them not to ruin our next couch." Tomorrow I am meeting with some salesperson to switch our cable and internet service providers. It's just that every step seems positive now, even if there are days where nothing happens and H is more reserved.

Now I know that we will have plans through March at least. H wants to spend at least 10 days in Brazil, so at the very least he must feel more comfortable and content around me.

Feeling really good right now...

ITH

[istherehope]

Journaling...

Yesterday was really good, but still no ML. H "fondled" me a couple of times, but nothing more. While I wish this was happening more frequently, I honestly would rather have the hugs and affection that he's been starting to show me. ML happened even when he was incredibly cold and distant, but affection did not.

This morning I made breakfast, and we hung out a little bit. H looked at the Czech Republic book some more. Now turns out I left my debit card in town yesterday, so I am on the train headed back to collect it. I'm buying a travel book for Brazil while out, and H also asked for me to buy one for California, as we might spend a few days there. I LOVE planning trips, and H had always had me do all the planning. Even though he called it pressure later, he never had any ideas for trips nor did he ever want to do the research, bookings etc. So this time I'll just make sure that any place we are going to/staying down to the last detail is discussed. Him picking a restaurant from the Czech Republic book was a great start. When I was enthusiastic about his choice, he seemed REALLY proud. I'm hoping he will come up with the Brazil itinerary too, or at least make some suggestions. At least with the Mexico trip, it's really all him. He speaks Spanish. His family is involved etc. I am more or less along for the ride.

I am getting so excited for next month now, Czech Republic, then Seattle, then California then Mexico!

OK almost to town now, will post later.

ITH

[istherehope]

Daily journal...

H and I are still on track for traveling. I brought home a travel book for Brazil and for California yesterday, and he was REALLY excited about the California one, particularly about going to San Diego.

There was sort of future talk last night in terms of places to live. It wasn't quite "let's move together", but it was discussion of different places that H would be open to living in.

This morning we were getting along really well, joking around, but then had our first disagreement. However I think I handled it well, and the morning ended up being pretty positive. H got annoyed with me over something that I failed to do in terms of our new ISP. I had forgotten to see if we need a phone line for the broadband, as we don't have one in our house--this is actually a pretty big deal. He was pretty annoyed about it, but then he took a shower, and I decided to go into work a bit late to see if things could be smoothed over. When he got out, he apologized for being mean, and we ended up taking the train together. What I did from my side was not to react to his annoyance emotionally. I said "Please don't talk to me like that. I made a mistake, and I am going to fix it." In the past if he got annoyed with me, I would have been extremely defensive, yelled or cried, and we would have left the house angry. By me reacting coolly but firmly, instead I got an apology. I was in the wrong, but he was wrong in the way that he spoke to me. Our first conflict resolution!

Then on the train I had the portable internet. We looked at airfares together to Mexico, looked at rental cars in San Diego etc., and this was pretty fun. We were laughing and looking at podcasts to download and listen to. He seems as excited as I am, and this is a really good sign.

Since I've been at work he's sent me his class schedule for this next semester, and has asked which dates he should look at for Brazil. I think something must have shifted for H this weekend when he made the decision to start planning trips with me...We're still not "there", but I love making plans with H that include being around his family as this really validates our relationship in my eyes. In fact last night he said that he would like for me to cook for his family one night while we are in Mexico, and that he would like me to cook Mexican food because mine is so good. This was REALLY sweet. Keep in mind that his family all have people who cook for them on a daily basis and are pretty good...

Anyway I'm trying to keep my emotional distance a bit still. I have done a good job so far of keeping myself in check around him. I think when H is done with school this week (before winter break), he might be a bit more relaxed too. I am also REALLY looking forward to our trip to the Czech republic. I want to see if H will wear his ring when he is around my ex...

ITH

[istherehope]

Journaling...

It's been a weird past couple of days. Yesterday I bought H's ticket to LA after IM discussions.

He had class at night, and got home near 11 PM as usual. When he got home I was in bed, and he turned on the light and started making sort of passive-aggressive comments about how I should have been up waiting for him. He was joking around, but there was clearly more to it. He went upstairs and ate dinner, then came back down and in a rare bout of what seemed to be total honesty, said that it was depressing when he got home and I wasn't awake to hang out and talk with him. I said that I had just been really tired, and that if it was that important to him, he should just tell me and that it wouldn't be a big deal to be awake in the future.

Then he wanted to talk A LOT about his family in Mexico, how many of them had grown up really wealthy but had never done much with their lives. They are quite a spoiled bunch, though very nice guys. H didn't grow up wealthy like they did. There was this strange palpable energy in the air. It had been a long time since we had any kind of serious talk in bed like that. Then he said how he had planned to have a "lone wolf" Christmas, his code word for spending time alone, but that now I was there with him. This was really weird and I didn't know what to say. Then he said, "but you're still going to give me space, right?" I said "of course", then mentioned again that I was going to be in Seattle for a week by myself. I have NO idea what he means in terms of space, but I didn't want to ask specifically. I had given him the out where I could have stayed at my friend's at any time over the last 3 weeks, and he didn't take it. When I am not around, he says I should be, and so this elusive space is confusing me. I really didn't want to have that conversation in bed at 12 AM when he seemed a bit off, so I didn't ask. It will be up to him to tell me what he wants. After all of this, he wrapped himself around me and kissed me on the face.

This morning I was running a bit late, and he said in this really cute voice "you are taking the train with me this morning." So I went to the train station with him, and on the way we were talking about Mexico flights. We still need to buy them flying from LA. He said "let's just see," but then he said he was joking as he knew I hated that phrase. At least he recognizes it...I said that yes I did hate it.

Now, turns out that his cousin cannot have the baptism until February, so we have bought a non-refundable ticket to LA for the month before. He wants to still go to California, but now we may not go to Mexico, and he may go on his own in February, while we are supposed to have Brazil in March. We were talking about it a bit via IM, and he said "let's talk about it later." He is really annoyed with his cousin and the sitch and I don't blame him. Now this changes everything in terms of our trip though. I was really excited about spending time with his family and such, and this may not happen now.

All in all H's actions continue to demonstrate that he really wants to be with me, but there are a few weird behaviors here and there that are confusing...

ITH

[AliSuddenly]

Hey ITH...

I'm not sure what to say other than, in every single one of your posts, you mention something which sounds to me like your H is abusive. I dont mean NOW, as in, because he is in MLC, but that he is abusive. And you ignore your intuition, I can hear you doing it, making excuses. Its like he is emotionally cruel.

I can only say, I cant see how you two will have a healthy marriage until you face up to his taunting, abusive treatment of you and gets the help he clearly needs! Its like the big white elephant in the room.

I am sure you wont agree.. but, I'm just trying to hep here. You cant change others, but you can change yourself, maybe you should check your reactions to his passive aggressive bullying (although you did stand up to him over the ISP thing!). Think of it as 180s, or doing something different?

Other than that.. there are of course a tonne of positives, but he still has to go say he intended a 'lone wolf' christmas and that you will give him space.. I wonder if this isnt about control issues (see above about your H being abusive!) and manipulation.. as soon as you get comfortable/relaxed, he takes it away. And yet.. he wants you to wake up and be there and talk to him and cook him food and ...

Can I ask if you are having IC? It might be good to explain all of this to an outsider and get their perspective on the dynamics in your R ? Not in a dbing sense I mean.

Also.. you didnt do anything "wrong" as you said about the ISP thing and its completely unnacceptable for someone to get angry at you over that...you just made a simple mistake. You didnt murder anybody.

And this isnt a 2x4.. but I really am trying to help here! Maybe try IC...

Al x

[istherehope]

Hi Ali,

Thanks for posting. It's great to hear from you. I know you are trying to help, and I do appreciate that. I know my H has emotional issues, and he is in IC, hopefully dealing with them. He has been going for about 3 months now, so he really is working on himself. I have seen massive strides in his attitude over the past month.

I'm not getting IC right now as I really don't feel the need. I am not devastated by the way that he is right now or the way that I am feeling. Of course I am confused and would like more improvement, but I feel that I did enough soul searching and introspection over the summer. I think IC is a great idea, but I am not in the place where I want this right now. I just don't think that this would be something that would help me at the moment. I could be wrong, and will be open to it down the road I think, just not now.

I really have to disagree on H being abusive though, as you knew I would :). I do think he's passive aggressive and rude at times, but he has not yelled, lost his temper, or said anything truly hurtful since I have been home. On the ISP I had signed a yearlong contract for something we thought wouldn't work, so it was a big deal and a lot of money. Luckily it worked out anyway. Yes I am standing up to him now when he says things that I feel are rude, so I do think this is a good idea and a 180. It seems to work fairly well. I also think you're right that he has control issues. He felt as though he was controlled throughout the M, so even Jody had suggested that he wants to be in control now. He wants to control the pace of things etc.

I am not ignoring my intuition about my H though. In fact it's quite the opposite. My intuition tells me that things are improving beyond what he is showing me. I do know him quite well, and I can tell that he is struggling. Honestly, I am not a victim of abuse who is protecting the abuser when I say this--my H is the most loving, loyal, wonderful man any woman could hope to be with. I am really proud of him for facing up to his issues through IC, and for taking care of himself through exercise and healthy eating. I assure you that if I thought there was no hope for things getting better, I wouldn't be in this still. I know we don't have a healthy M now, and I know this isn't possible without both of us actively and openly putting forth the effort. I am in this for the long haul though...

So hope I don't sound defensive, it's just that things always look different close up. What I definitely take from your advice is the need to show my 180 of responding to his passive aggressive behavior more firmly.

ITH

[daisy282]

Hey ITH

Thanks for posting on my thread. Good to hear from you!

I can see a lot of positive things happening here in your sitch but I have to say that I am still with Ali on this one. I try to be happy for you and your steps of progress but in the back of my mind something still does not seem right. I know that sounds awful. . .I'm sorry! Please don't hate me!

It's like you are making positive steps back into the marriage but I wish it was a different marriage that you were trying to step back into. Does that make any sense?

I know you are probably so tired of hearing this. I wish I could just say congrats but as a friend and fellow DBer I worry about you my dear.

And abuse is not always yelling and violence. It can be other things. Like in your case how he draws you close and then shoves you away. All men need cave time but the way your h goes about getting his is harsh and inapropriate.

I think Ali is spot on about the IC advice. I have said it before and will say it again. I really think you should look into it. Even just trying one or two sessions. Then again if you are not feeling it then you will not get too much out of it. You have to give and want to give something for it to work.

Ugh. I hate that I'm being negative when you are happy with your progress.

Ok.

I do think it is great that your h is still in IC. That is wonderful. And the fact that you can see changes is great. I also liked that he wants you to stay up and talk to him when he gets home as that is intimacy but I do not like that he demands this of you without giving anything back. I feel like you are so scared of him turning back and shutting down that you do not make your needs known to him. And to me that is not a marriage. It is a give and take. If he wants that from you, and feels comfortable enough to express that desire then I feel it would be time to give your own desires a voice and see what happens. If he does not love and respect you enough to give you a small thing in return for your gesture then this is not a relationship that can work properly.

I am also concerned about the ML thing. It seems very very werid to me that you two sleep in the same bed but there is no sex or even affection (besides the rare kiss or holding)

What would happen if you brought this concern to him? What is the worst case scenario?

I think it is time to start testing the waters a little bit. Stop bending over backwards for this man unless he is willing to do the same for you. Time to even the playing field.

I guess the point to all my rambling is that you need to get this thing moving to the next level or I fear it will stay like this indefinatly.

I hope some of that helps or at least gives you food for thought. I really am rooting for you. But rooting for you and rooting for your marriage are different things to me right now. Hope I did not offend!

[istherehope]

Hi Daisy,

You didn't offend, and it's great to hear from you.

I do think that I have been giving the wrong impression though about H and the marriage as I talk only about what I am doing now, and what he is doing now and nothing that led to this. For 7 years, no exaggeration, he bent over backwards for me, did everything I wanted, complimented me multiple times a day, moved country for me etc. I am not blaming myself for everything by any means, but I really didn't give him a lot back. We fought all the time, I never acted like I cared how he felt etc. So I can understand how his resentment and frustration built up. I don't appreciate or like how he handled it, but I do know why he's wary. He had made up his mind he wanted a D, and it's only been 30 days since he has softened, 2 weeks since he said that he was going to try. He had also been very depressed, to the point of being suicidal. I don't see this level of depression anymore, but I think it's important to keep in mind that it's only been a few months since he had no emotion in his voice at all and said nothing in life gave him joy. I guess because of all of those reasons, I am willing to be patient and I know that this will take time.

So in terms of making my needs known, I do agree that things can't stay like they are indefinitely. I have been back for just over 30 days now, so even though it seems like ages, it is still early days. I agree Daisy that I should try to find ways to push the envelope a bit. What I have been doing if he phrases something in a way that I don't like is to say, in a joking voice but still with a serious intent, "a better way to say that to me would have been x." This actually seems to work. I did mention the lack of ML yesterday morning, but not in a serious way, and he said "I don't want to be nagged." So, it has been 2 weeks now since ML, maybe less not exactly sure. At the moment I think H is very stressed with school. Even with booking our tickets from LA to Mexico he wants to wait until his tests are over this week, as he says he can't think straight. He had said about MC that he wanted to wait until after the New Year. So, this seems to be a common theme, after school is out and there has been time to relax...I can live with this timeframe, and if he does not raise the topic after New Years, I will do so myself. In fact we have a trip planned for December 31st, and I think the trip will really illuminate things for us. I may reconsider IC after the New Year myself, but just at the moment I am exhausted with work and everything else, and it's not something I'm ready to take on. I understand the point on this though, so I am not ruling it out, just want to wait a bit.

After H's tests are done this week, I may try to ask for something small, and see how this works out. In many ways I don't think there's anything for this situation except time and patience. I do see small improvements on a regular basis, and while I certainly want more, I would rather H go at his own pace and that a final reconciliation come from his heart and a place with minimal, ideally no, doubts. I really am in this for the long haul, and I think it is going to take time to rebuild trust and intimacy. If I push, I think he will run away still at this point, so when I do start expressing my own needs more, I would like us to have a solid couple of months worth of positive experiences. I do think we're on track for that. So after the New Year...

Please don't think that I'm offended. I know things always look different from the outside so I appreciate hearing others' perspectives, and I also know that the way things are now is not the way that they should be. I look at the M as a work in progress, and I am really OK with this.

ITH

[istherehope]

On another quick note, the trip to Mexico is back on...so we now have 3 trips in the works. Traveling is something that we have always enjoyed together, and 2 of these 3 trips will be with friends/family, so it will be interesting to see how/whether we can act as a couple around people we are close to.

ITH

[JCJ]

Hey ITH

What an interesting discussion on your thread! I personally think that your h is displaying classic WAH possibly with a dash of MLC, but the difference is that you are at home and having to experence it directly and more intensely. I think that my h would be pretty much the same with me if we were both living together. He is like that in his texts/ emails with me (i.e. the keeping me at arms distance) but because you and your h spend more time together he is going to fluctuate more between the closeness and distance. IMO this is going to take time to work on and we can def think of some solution orientated goals here. Maybe see if you can work out if there are any triggers, or if there aren't you may just have to work on coping tactics, for now. But then again you seem to be doing that really well.

Yes, you shouldn't have to put up with the behaviour but none of us should really. I don't think it will help your sitch if you start voicing boundaries now as he will push against you. Have you read the 'Getting through to the man you love' book by MWD, there is some really handy hints in there. Your marriage is in a fragile state at the moment and I think you are doing well. Keep GALing. I'm so pleased that you intergrated again so well after Poland.