Somberbrow said something that made me remember something that my DB coach said to me. I have no idea whether she was talking about all situations or just mine, but I will share it.
I asked her about marriage counseling and she told me it was a great idea during the right stage . She said H and I are in Stage 1 (she was not referring to stages of MLC, but stages of reconciliaton). Stage 1 is about creating a neutral, guilt-free safe zone that has no R talk. Stage 2 is friendship, still no R talk. Stage 3 is romantic/dating friendship. It is only during Stage 3, and maybe not then that the couple should enter MC.
I do not mean to say that she is absolutely right and that anyone on this board going to MC with a WAS during any other stage is wrong or making a mistake. Rather, this was her opinion and it made me feel better because there is no way my H would even consider MC right now.
So, take it for what it is worth. I hope I have not made things more difficult for you, just wanted to give you that thought.
My wife and I have been seeing the same C, but seperately. I've really enjoyed this approach and can recommend it. This is something that MWD recommends herself. Here is a copy of a post MWD made somewhere on this board: (lost the location)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do a great deal of training for marriage therapists. I teach them that it is a cardinal sin to continue to see 2 people who have divergent goals for their marriage conjointly precisely for the reasons you're suggesting. Let me explain.
If the therapist sees both spouses together and they disagree about the future of their marriage, over time their disagreements and differences will become even greater. Here's why. When therapy begins, the therapist wants to know what the goal is. Person A states s/he wants to stay married and offers reasons for this position. Person B, hearing this, feels the need to let the therapist know about his or her ambivalence about the marriage and offers a somewhat negative view of things. When Person A hears this perspective, s/he counters by sharing positive memories or thoughts about the marriage, which triggers person B to dredge up even more pessimistic thoughts and feelings. By the end of the session, or several sessions, things escalate to the point of the couple being completely polarized, even more so than when they started!
There's a better way. I see spouses separately. This way, I can help the pro-marriage person strategize about a better, more effective way to try to turn things around IN THE ABSENCE OF THE OTHER SPOUSE. I can give the reluctant partner time to voice concerns or negative feelings about the marriage and make sure this spouse feels heard and understood. Once people truly feel understood, they often give themselves permission to look at things with more of an open mind. Reluctant spouses when seen alone often tell me, "Well, things aren't that bad, but I didn't want to say this before in his/her presence because I didn't want him/her to get his/her hopes up."
But the fact of the matter is that once the words have been uttered- "Things aren't that bad," the dye is cast. It's a good thing. I thank this spouse for his/her honesty and send the person home focusing on some individually-oriented goal. We work toward saving the marriage slowly and subtly.
The long and the short of it is that you can't talk "honestly" about your feelings in therapy if your spouse has half a foot out the door. It doesn't work.
So check-out how MWD talks about 'divergent goals' in her first paragraph. That relates directly to what Beth was saying about stages of R. It's not until the third stage that you both finally get the same goal (to reconcile). In the first two stages you have different goals. So you need to see the C seperately.
So, as MWD notes, my C helps me 'strategize' about a better, more effective way to turn things around. He tells me things to do or say that he would never be able to say in front of my wife.
There is still alot of value in seeing the same C, even if it is seperate. He can't tell me things W says for confidentiality reasons. But he can <use> that knowledge when he suggests things for me to say or do. So it is very valuable.
My thread, Carpe Diem #4 Orig Thread: Carpe Diem #1
Thank you for your input. Just to be clear, I am not ready for dating, not even close. But it was something that seemed to work last time. And surely only if I can detach completely, I may feel ready to date. I had a good time yesterday though and even today was still quite a positive day.
Since I do not feel ready right now, the idea was to have a few drinks with a friend (a guy), so just some GAL, but be mysterious enough about it so she might think whatever. I agree with you that it would be unfair to another person to use her to get my W back. That was certainly not what I was thinking. If I decided to have a date, then it would only be after I have given up 100% on my M (and would not be open to working on it anymore).
What made me think though is what you (and Beth and techguy - thank you for input as well) commented about MC. The approach that I had put together in my mind was to let her talk most of time, not to disagree with her, but simply to validate what she says. So I wanted to avoid anything alienating like what MWD describes. I want the therapist to tell her what she would not believe from me and - if anything - I would jump in to defend her. I do not think she would go to IC right now. If I look at the books she is reading they are all about how to deal with effects of divorce (on herself and the kids). She does not even seem to consider reconciliation as a remote option. Like the DR book says, it is trial and error. If it works, I will continue. If not, I will continue to go, but alone.
Some journaling:
Her aunt passed away in the early evening hours. My W called around 4pm today (10pm European time), but I was in a conference call, so she left a message. I had planned to call her back tomorrow, but she called again one and a half hours later. I tried to comfort her and told her how sorry I felt. I exchanged a few more words, but really nothing of importance. I know it is hard on her (and I told her that), even though she had had almost 10 days to prepare for this.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
I do not think she would go to IC right now. If I look at the books she is reading they are all about how to deal with effects of divorce (on herself and the kids). She does not even seem to consider reconciliation as a remote option. Like the DR book says, it is trial and error. If it works, I will continue. If not, I will continue to go, but alone.
Yes, the basic point is to avoid conflict in the early stages, which different goals tend to promote. But if you are willing to suppress yourself, things will go better. You will need to be prepared for her to speak in very negative, 'this marriage is over' terms and not react. That will be the key.
We have had a few joint MC sessions over the last month or so. But we both jointly agreed to focus on being better co-parents. So we had a common goal: to be better parents to the kids, whether we got divorced or not.
This kind of aligns with your observation that she is reading about how to minimize the effects of seperation\divorce on kids. That area might provide some good topics for your initial meeting.
In the end, picking topics that are important to your wife will be key to early success. Yes, the content of those topics won't be very enjoyable for you and it might even seem like you are going the wrong way (talking about D like it is a certainty). But just getting communication flowing and making your wife comfortable with MC will pay benefits down the road.
I think you have a good plan. Keep the faith!
My thread, Carpe Diem #4 Orig Thread: Carpe Diem #1
I have been mostly busy with work. I did get a 9-mile run in, but by now I think the endorphins are wearing off. My mood is changing once again to the sad side of things. Today I have been thinking about moving on a couple of times. Why do I torture myself with trying to hang on to this M? Doubts came into my mind whether I truly still love her. Or do I - as she feels and has told me several times - just like the comfort? Not sure if this is normal. I guess I am feeling just down right now. Well, tomorrow is another day and it looks I might be busy again tomorrow.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
I'll be headed off to Retrouvaille tommorrow so I'll be off the forum until Monday at the soonest.
One parting thought... don't spend too many cycles trying to decide if you want the M or not. It really doesn't matter at this point anyway!
The reality is that your wife is in the drivers seat at the moment. If she sticks with her desire to divorce, then it really doesn't matter what you think anyway.
Yes, I know that is a bit morbid. But from your point of view, you need to do the same things whether you want to save the M or not! Either way, you need to improve yourself and generate a positive attitude to life.
So just work on doing the things you need to do for yourself and keep having rewarding time with the kids. Don't waste emotions trying to continuously answer a question that really doesn't matter right now.
Now, if wife sees your improvements and changes her mind, then you will need to decide some things down the road. But that point is a long ways off at this point.
Detach...Detach...Detach
My thread, Carpe Diem #4 Orig Thread: Carpe Diem #1
Thank you for checking in. I have been extremely busy this weekend, so lots of GAL, but no time to write anything. Since I will travel again early tomorrow morning, I do not have much time now either. I will write more tomorrow. I am looking forward to finding out about techguy's Retrouvaille experience.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
As I said I have been extremely busy the last couple of days. Part of it was that I wanted to clean the house before W came home. I thought I had done a pretty good job, but she just displayed her typical attitude finding a needle in a haystack. But more about that later...
On Friday morning, I had a meeting at my S8's school regarding his reading issues. He has improved quite a bit and is currently at the level that he needs to be at. It is not yet consistent, but with a little more support (that I have asked for and that the school is willing to provide) he should be able to pass the next tests at the appropriate fluency levels. It sounded like the guidance counselor and his teacher were quite happy to see me (instead of my W). Reading between the lines, it also sounded like they are close to completing the evaluation that my W insisted upon. This was one of our main issues leading up to the bomb. I felt she was obsessed with the idea that our S8 has some kind of learning disability, and she felt that I did not support her in the process (which is probably true). Anyway, further reading between the lines, I do not expect them to find anything. If this is true, this, of course, is potential for a further blow-up, because I expect her to see another "triumphant smile" on my face (just like when she told me about the EA), even though there will not be one. If he does not have any learning disability, I will be just happy for him.
On another note, when I dropped off my D5 at kindergarten, a friend commented on how much happier she looks when I (and not my W) drop her off. My W claims this is because D5 is much more attached to her. I am just wondering how she can forget that there was not a problem last year when she went to pre-school. I think it is because I spend time with her at home before she leaves and do not yell at her to get ready, because we are late. Again, no discussion about that with my W, just here to vent a little.
The remainder of Friday, I spent with work and watched some TV at night after the kids went to bed. I just did not feel like thinking about all this again and stayed away from the computer.
On Saturday, I prepared breakfast and then took my S8 to swimming. He is an excellent swimmer for his age and I always enjoy watching him. He does a perfect dive and a pretty good flip turn (actually better than me, but then, I am not a good swimmer at all). Coming home, I prepared lunch quickly. I started to think how funny it is that I can do it, and in our fights my W always said if you want me to take him there (I suggested that she could take him, because she claimed it did not count as spending time with the kids), you must prepare lunch. Our fights have always been on how we spend our (free) time. She counted my hours spent with kids and determined it was not enough. I never bothered and simply enjoyed the hours I have had with them.
After lunch we spent a little time playing all kinds of games, before we got ready to go to watch a hockey game in center city. The kids truly enjoyed it, even though they had a little fight in the car on the way back. But it was really the exception over the last 2 weeks, and I attribute it to their tiredness (it was very late for them).
So on Sunday we woke up a little late, had breakfast, spent some time together, I prepared lunch, and it was finally time to pick up my W from the airport. To my surprise, both kids did not want to come with me. Finally, I convinced at least my D5 to join me, while S8 stayed home with our exchange student. When she came out of the building, it was not just the air that was icy cold. W climbed into the back of the car and talked to our D5. From what I picked up I almost felt she tried to convince her how great it was in Germany, with all her cousins, uncles and aunts. I was truly aggravated, but did not show any emotions. Then my D5 complained that I would allow her to play with a certain toy, and W said she would take a look at it. (Later I told her that I expect her to say something like you have to talk to Daddy about that - I thought, but did not say, you just went to a parenting seminar and you still don't get it.) I prepared dinner, and for the first time in 2 weeks, the kids did not sit at the table when it was ready (primarily because W did not come to the table either until later to - at least I feel that way - show her lack of respect). After the kids went to bed, she started to ask about the Friday meeting at school.
I told her about it and we somehow ended up talking about what was best for the children. She restated that she wanted to take them to Germany. I validated that, but also told her that I had a different opinion. Based on scientific studies, it would be best for the kids to grow up with both parents, ideally in a M, but if that was not possible, then at least co-parenting. She repeated I could come to Germany as well to co-parent there. Well, I said, I hear you, but that is not the only option I am considering. So I referred to the Retrouvaille material, which she had already found at that point and had briefly read across. I told her that I understood how she felt about me and I agreed with her that continuing the M with the current tension did not make sense. I also let her know I had realized over the last 2 weeks that I had walked away from the M emotionally and I was not sure either if that could be repaired. But in the interest of the kids, I would consider a genuine attempt to rediscover what we used to have - or maybe just discover what was still left. She added that the kids alone were not a good reason to hold on to a M. I agreed with her, but also added that I considered them a good enough reason to at least make an attempt. All I was expecting from her was a simple "yes" or "no" when she was ready to make that decision.
There were a couple more exchanges, and some of them surely did not go extremely well. One thing she asked me out of the blue was what I felt she did wrong in our M. I told her that I felt she did not let me lead in our R (gave her an example for that) and that I did not get her respect and gave her the example about doing "imperfect" jobs around the house (like the cleaning up I did this time) and how she reacted to it. Not knowing DB, she did not validate, but claimed the opposite was true, which I then validated her feelings on. The examples were not really all that offensive, but I had to back up what I said.
Only once I had to openly disagree with her when she claimed I forced her into this. I told her that I have probably caused a lot of the negative feelings she has, but she made the decision to get an OM as her penpal and to end our M. I did not make that decision for her, she made it on her own.
I am not sure if this was good or bad. I guess I said what I wanted to say, and I believe she heard me. I am sure her "well-meaning fiends" (like MWD calls them) including OM will help her twist the words in my mouth post-mortem, but there is nothing I can do about that. She asked a rhetorical question why I was doing this and answered it by saying "so that I could say at the end I tried everything, but you did not want to". Again, I validated (I am sorry you feel that way) and shut up.
Looking forward to comments on how I could have improved. I certainly feel a little better and happier today. I feel I had a good two weeks as Mr. Mom and will not let her talk me down on that.
AN
M43 W45, M17 S9 D6 Bomb: 11/11/08 EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ? Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09 Healed, but still heading for D My situation
