Fascinating, GF. The whole "love and respect" thing is very deep and interesting to me. Our MC gave us a book -- I think it was by Eggerichs -- that wrote about this from a biblical perspective.
It was a HUGE "a-ha" for me. I was listening to it on CD, in my car, and driving around going "Yes! YES!!!!"
As a man, I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that respect is what we crave, and that plays a whole, fascinating dynamic in the whole infidelity world . . .
Whatever you decide to do, do NOT do it out of anger. Even the "tough love" approach (heck, ESPECIALLY the tough love approach) should be done out of careful consideration, planning, and prayer.
Moves made out of anger are rarely the right ones.
I agree, Puppy. I'm venting here because if I don't do it somewhere, I feel like I will explode. I am very well aware that I am not in the appropriate mental state to be making huge decisions, much less actually discussing them with my H.
Case in point:
He came to take the kids to school this morning and I was a little short with him (I tried not to be, but was not successful, apparently). He wanted to know what was wrong, and at first I tried the "nothing" approach, but he never buys that. So, I admitted I had been short, apologized for it, and said that I just had a lot on my mind. He wanted to know what I was thinking about, and I said "I don't want to discuss it right now." He insisted, and I repeated that I wasn't going to talk about it. He got irritated and said, "come on kids, let's go" and walked out the front door. I thought, "whatever, go" (about him, not the kids; I said a proper goodbye to them before they followed him out to the car).
He called me from the car after he had dropped the kids off and asked me again to tell him what was wrong. I repeated my original statement that I didn't want to talk about it. He asked for a clue, because he "didn't like to be in the dark" (I thought, "oh poor baby, what about all the deception about the OW?", but I kept my mouth shut). I said something like, "if you are asking if it's about you, I will tell you that yes, it is. But that's all I am going to say right now."
He continued by saying that he had called me yesterday and left a message and I didn't call him back. I told him that I had been out, and that I didn't get his message until after I had picked the kids up from school and was busy with other things, so I couldn't really call him back (all true). He said, well I needed to talk to you, and I pointed out that he hadn't tried to reach me on my cell, hadn't texted me, and his message only said that he was trying to contact me. There was no urgency in his message, and he didn't leave a reason as to why he was trying to contact me. I also pointed out that I did text him later in the evening, but he responded by texting back 20 minutes later that he would text me again in "a bit", only to call me on the house phone 3 hours later and ask to say goodnight to the kids (knowing it was an hour after their bedtime, by the way). He didn't indicate then that there was anything he needed to talk to me about.
He said that we needed to sit down and discuss plans for Christmas. (I was the one who had brought that up a few days ago, and it did not go well.) I said, yes, we do. There was silence for a couple of seconds, then he said, in a kind of irritated tone, something like, "well, when you figure things out and want to talk, give me a call." I said okay, and we ended the conversation.
All of this to say, I knew this morning that discussing the feelings I was having with my H would be a BAD idea right now. I'm still trying to sort out in my own head and heart what it is I really want, and need, to do, for myself. I'm really pretty torqued right now, but I know that will change in a couple of days and I don't want to make any decisions I will regret. That's not to say I won't still think that something has to change. I really do believe that the situation cannot continue the way it has been going. But I need to be able to do this with a clear head, one not clouded by too much emotion, be it anger, sadness, what have you.
And you are right Puppy, I need to pray on this, too.
Me: 38 H: 41 M: 12 D12, S10 H began EA: 7/08 H moved out: 9/30/08 Bomb (sleeping with OW): 10/23/08
My story: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1638048&page=2#Post1638048
Not yet, Puppy. But that is what was on my mind this morning. My grip on the rope is loosening. I haven't dropped it yet, but it feels imminent.
I've got to take some time to think this out, decide what to say, and practice it (I think you were the one who suggested this). I want him to understand that even though I still love him, I can't go on this way forever.
Me: 38 H: 41 M: 12 D12, S10 H began EA: 7/08 H moved out: 9/30/08 Bomb (sleeping with OW): 10/23/08
My story: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1638048&page=2#Post1638048
As a man, I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that respect is what we crave, and that plays a whole, fascinating dynamic in the whole infidelity world . .
And I will say, from a woman's point of view, that we WANT to respect our man. But when our H does things that make us lose our respect for him, that's where a M runs into trouble.
Take my H, for example. My H complained that I didn't respect him. But he was addicted to pain meds, loaded more often than not, couldn't keep a job, didn't help with ANYTHING around the house, spent money like crazy on a bunch of sh** we didn't need, eventually stopped working altogether and spent a full year basically just sleeping and watching Lord of the Rings, wasn't involved in our kids' lives, became irritable and angry, let his health go to sh**,and generally behaved like an a-hole.
And I was supposed to RESPECT the guy? I mean, I still loved him because I remembered the man he used to be, and still believed he could be ressurected, if only my H wanted him to be, and did the work, but RESPECT? Not the way he was acting.
So, I'm sorry, but if my H left me for OW because he needed respect and felt that I wasn't giving it to him, well, he needs to take a long look in the mirror. Respect is earned, and he didn't earn it. He had my respect in the beginning, but lost it, and for good reason. If he felt like he shouldn't have to earn it back, well then whatever. Maybe I am better off...
OH, and if he thinks that I should respect him NOW, after what he has done to me with his abandonment and his A, then he is just delusional. I would respect a man who would actually "man up" and take responsibility for what he is doing, but he actually has the nerve to tell me that he doesn't believe he is cheating on me, because he LEFT me, and that his only mistake was not divorcing me before he started sleeping with OW. How's THAT for a crap-bag?
Last edited by lovehimso; 12/04/0807:08 PM.
Me: 38 H: 41 M: 12 D12, S10 H began EA: 7/08 H moved out: 9/30/08 Bomb (sleeping with OW): 10/23/08
My story: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1638048&page=2#Post1638048
It's about time you starting getting more of that attitude. He sounds like he was pretty much a loser there at the end. Perhaps he should be given the incentive to make his own changes, by you making it really apparent that you aren't his for the asking...that you expect to be won over. If he asks what you are thinking about next time, just say, "just getting my life in order to move on." See how he likes that. He doesn't want to be disliked by you. Quit feeling like you have to kiss butt. You don't even have to answer him on why you didn't return his calls or where you were and what you were doing. Tell him it's none of his business.
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
Not yet, Puppy. But that is what was on my mind this morning. My grip on the rope is loosening. I haven't dropped it yet, but it feels imminent.
I've got to take some time to think this out, decide what to say, and practice it (I think you were the one who suggested this). I want him to understand that even though I still love him, I can't go on this way forever.
I just think that phrase (or some version of it) is CRITICAL in these "standing" situations, and yet it's almost always MISSING.
Usually, one of two extremes happens:
1) The betrayed spouse gives the wayward spouse an immediate ultimatum (and rarely are they prepared to follow thru on it); or
2) The betrayed spouse either says -- or conveys -- that they will wait forever, or they say "Take your time, I will give you as much as you need."
BOTH are BIG mistakes, in my view. I think the correct view is one of "I love you, and I don't want a divorce, but I cannot wait forever you to make up your mind. At some point soon, I'm going to have to protect myself, emotionally and otherwise, so I hope you'll decide soon before my love for you erodes beyond the point of repair."
There's also a third mistake that people make, and that's to give a specific deadline. The problem with that is, say you give them 90 days. Well, you've basically just given them carte blanche to carry on their affair for the next 89 days, unencumbered. Then on the 89th day, they will make all sorts of promises -- the moon, the stars -- ANYTHING to either come back, or -- more likely -- to ask for more time.
It's best to let them know that there IS some deadline, but not convey what it is, and that they'd better hurry the F up and decide.
Puppy
P.S. It IS, however, a good idea for the betrayed spouse, FOR THEMSELVES, to set some deadline -- 60 days, 90 days, six months, a year -- whatever they feel they can handle. It gives them an end spot, and it's comforting. Just don't convey to the cheating spouse what that end spot is.
My challenge is, when H decides to come home, he already has the perfect deadline already established. He does not need to make a decision until that darn ship pulls back in--or at least that is what he is going to think, anyway. I need to find a way to make him think he needs to do work LONG BEFORE then if he wants to ensure he has someplace to come home to. Don't get me wrong--I WILL be on that pier--I have EARNED that for being the Navy wife I am and I want the kids to see their Dad come off the ship. That does not mean I have to let him in the car or bring him back to the house. His parents will probably be there, too. Let them worry about getting him to wherever he wants to go. Heck, since he was living on the ship, I guess he really does not need to leave it, right?
SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
I think the correct view is one of "I love you, and I don't want a divorce, but I cannot wait forever you to make up your mind. At some point soon, I'm going to have to protect myself, emotionally and otherwise, so I hope you'll decide soon before my love for you erodes beyond the point of repair."
EXCELLENT!
This is exactly how I feel. I have avoided saying this because I thought it would feel like pressure, and I am trying really hard to avoid any R talks.
However, I think this really needs to be said. I have definitely been in camp #2 ("take your time"), and am not ready or willing to issue a direct ultimatum, because I do still love him and am still hoping for a reconcilliation.
But he's just going to keep on doing what he is doing as long as he thinks I am just going to be sitting here waiting for him until he's done fulfilling his fantasy of being with OW. He's had an EA with her since July, and a PA since the end of October, and not one thing has changed. In fact, he has moved even further away from me, judging from the fact that he no longer sees his moving out as a "temporary" thing, as was evidenced by the fact that he was still living in a hotel, but is looking for an apartment now. He told me a month ago, when he renewed the hotel for another month, that he wasn't "in that place" where he wanted to look for an apartment. Apparently he's now "in that place".
I don't want him by "default", just because he got tired of the OW, or because she dumps him. I don't want to live in fear of her contacting him at some point in the future and him running back to her because she is who he really wanted all along; I need it to be HIS decision. I need him to CHOOSE ME, when he still has the option of having HER. I know there are no guarantees that he won't someday change his mind and go back to her, but I definitely think it's riskier the other way around. I don't want to be the "consolation prize". And this I HAVE told him. But it probably bears repeating.
I know that DR advocates waiting the A out, since most end within 6 months. But is that really the most attractive option for the LBS (considering the "consolation prize" issue)? I guess waiting it out isn't the same as "allow your H to have his cake and eat it too." Stop allowing the cake-eating, but still leave the door open, just in case, as long as you are still willing to. Is my thought-process going in the right direction here?
Me: 38 H: 41 M: 12 D12, S10 H began EA: 7/08 H moved out: 9/30/08 Bomb (sleeping with OW): 10/23/08
My story: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1638048&page=2#Post1638048
I think the correct view is one of "I love you, and I don't want a divorce, but I cannot wait forever you to make up your mind. At some point soon, I'm going to have to protect myself, emotionally and otherwise, so I hope you'll decide soon before my love for you erodes beyond the point of repair."
This is what I told my H 4-5 months ago AFTER initially telling him I would wait for him for ever.
My case was a bit different than many because he did try to be in good terms with me, he always respected and never tried to have sex with me or anything... He kept saying " I am thinking, still havent decided".
After he missed a deadline for June, I started calmly asking for the divorce. I asked 3-4 times. In the end I WANTED the divorced and I think that was obvious to him. He had to admit he didnt want the divorce but said he still didnt know how to do things. I did not back up and I insisted and it showed how detached I was.
October 9-10 he said he wants back, loves me etc. November 17-19 was one year of separation for us.
The whole "poor hubby" attitude I went through too. For a couple of months. My C was great about it. She turned this around to "he is responsible for not letting you know what the problem was before you got here". She kept telling me he was not "enough" for me and that made him run but that it wasnt my fault I was "good". I think she went overboard there but she did help me find the balance. Our friends were very harsh with me in the beginning for "pushing away a great guy", but in the end did help me see the reality when things calmed down.
I know where I went wrong and I would have been this wrong with anyone by my side. I have been myself's worst judge. But he was "wrong" too, God he was wrong!! He may have had an affair.I never excused him for it. I can understand what he got from her, respect and so on, but that still cant make it "right".
I believe had I not pushed and detached completely he would still be thinking. Sometimes people tend to use all the rope you give them. And we have a responsibility to ourselves to protect us more than anyone else. If we dont respect us, no one will. It's a fact in life.
My boss once told me, "dont sell yourself short" in English (we are Greek). I will never forget that.
Right now I am trying to figure out if I have reached "the point of no repair". Sometimes I think if I had been more "strict", firmer, things would have been much easier now. Then again, maybe not. Piecing needs emotion among planning and knowledge. I am trying to find my emotions for him at the moment... K
