Maybe I should be in piecing part 4?

[Hope4us]

I'm with ya. I have been practicing so I don't made demands or give ultimatum's. I figure I've got a number of days to perfect my speech.

It'll be all about how far it seems we've come, but there's still something holding us back, and what I think those things could be and how I NEED those things to happen to feel safe. If she's not willing to do those things, then I'll be saying something to the affect that in order to protect the feelings I still have left for her, that S16 and I need to move until she figures out what she wants.

How's that sound for an outline?

Ok, I've had enough work today

Talk to ya tomorrow. Have a good night.

[Hope4us]

Ok, just got your response.

Her lack of response does not mean no. YOu can't assume that. If it is a no, let her verbalize it to you and explain why so you have a chance to make your rationale as well.

The statement about bringing the affair up.....just so ya know, part of that is probably true on her point. If she is trying to move past it and open her heart to you, she can't be reminded of it/him over and over. Yet, you need these pieces first...you need to tell her that. You can let the past be the past once some issues are talked about, etc.

Why do you need to know about the move to have the heart to heart? Is it because you want something to whip out when/if she won't do what you ask her?

I have told her I won't hold it over her head. I've repeated many many times that once we work through this that it'll be over. But she won't talk about it AT ALL. I've told her that's a recipe for another affair to happen if we don't understand how and why it happened. I've told her that I want to understand my part in it happening so I can make the changes I need to make, but she just refuses.

The move is just the ice breaker to have the talk. Again, I told her back in Sept I wouldn't bring it up until she was ready to talk about it, but that we WOULD need to talk about it. Someday. And I'm willing to live by that, but only as long as I see us making some progress, but I just don't see any progress. If anything, I see back sliding.

Ok, now I'm really going to leave. See ya.

[sandi2]

Well, I see all of WDID reasoning and understand them completely! But, I am going to lay it out and it often hits hard b/c the spouse doesn't want to hear it. I hold back to a point b/c I am afraid you are on the verge of walking out on her. Anyway, here it goes:

If S16 wants to move with you.....then she is using him to buy her more time. If the OM is coming back, then I think she is wanting to see one last time if he is the one she wants for life before giving it completely up and leaving it behind. She has the opportunity to start "brand new" with you in a different place where there are no reminders of OM. There is something very powerful holding her back and I do not believe for a second it is her concern for the son. She has either continued to have some sort of contact with the OM, or she is waiting until he comes back to see if the A is rekindled and she can have those great in-love feelings again. I think the end of school is her "time limit" as to measure how things are going for her and OM. However, if son should get in her way of an A she is wanting with the OM, she'll send him packing and to go live with daddy.

I hope with all my heart that I am wrong. I wanted to see this as a glass half full and I think she has given enough words and looks, etc. to make you wonder, but the bottom line is "what is holding her back"? And it ain't the kid!

Don't ignore what WDID's advice about communicating with her before you move. What do you have to lose? Be careful about closing the door for good.....even if your patient has run out now. The stress of everything combined is too much. You may have to just take care of you and try to focus on your job. If you move without her, then I would go dark (except where son is concerned, of course)b/c I am concerned about what is happening to you. Moving without her and going dark would be better than shutting a door forever. I still am not so sure that I would not take my son with me if he is wanting to move that badly. Then see what her "excuse" would be for not going with her family.

One of my concerns about you is b/c of the anger that is continually building up inside of you over her being the bad guy b/c of the A and yet it's your fault. In so many words, I am hearing a man say that, "I know I have not been the perfect H, but who has? Besides, she has done the really one of five major big sins! I have not been as bad as she has! I do not think she has had to suffer enough for her sin. I think she needs to feel more pain and I do not feel that she has given me what I need emotionally by seeing her fall at my feet in dispair and regret over her sin of adultry. I am the good guy....she is the really bad guy. I cannot truly forgive her as long as I am being blamed in any sense for her adultry! It is not my fault and I will not accept any responsibility for the breakdown in the M.....at least not to the point that she would turn to another man. The nerve of her.....blaming me for her sin!" Now, that is what I preceive in what you are typing. I said all of that harshly and bluntly, but is this what you really, really feel in your heart? I think maybe you need some quiet time to reflect upon this and do a lot of soul searching. It is easy to love the lovable, but to love the unlovable says what kind of person you are. It is easy to forgive those that come to us in tears of repentance and beg for our forgiveness, but to forgive those that are unforgivable and have not asked for your forgiveness and shown no remorse for what they have done.......that says you can forgive her b/c of who and what you are....not her. I hope you will consider what I've said.

So finally I said, "ok, I'll just call the Dr myself and make you an appointment" and she said in a very stern voice "I can take care of myself"!

That will not work. She will fight you over the "power" issue. Know what I mean by that? If she is close to her mom, then maybe Mom could talk her into getting a check up from head to toe. But, you aren't the one to do it.

Wish I was more encouraging to you. But, this is how I see it and I'm not going to beat around the bush. Hope I am wrong.

Please take care,
Sandi

[Hope4us]

Oh Sandi. I was hoping you would respond. As always I appreciate your insights.

Let's see.....If OM comes back, it probably won't be until fall of next year. Could still be W's plan, but she's said she will move at the end of the school year. I know, don't believe anything they say. I know it would really bother her if S16 chose to live with me and she stayed here based on some comments she's made about a friend who divorced and her daughter chose to live with her ex H. But I wonder if W thinks, well, if I stall until the end of the school year, it's only one more year until S16 goes to college anyway so I'd only miss out on one year with him. Back in the spring she had made a comment to me after I told the kids what was going on that she "wanted to finish giving S16 a normal upbringing before we divorced" but I wrecked that by telling them what was going on. And there's some history going on here. Her mom did the EXACT same thing. Figured out she wanted to divorce W's step dad when her younger brother was a sophmore in H.S. but stayed until he graduated and then divorced her H. Kind of like history repeating itself.

There is something holding her back. Whether its contact with OM, whether it's just friendly chat now or it's the constant reminders of OM just by being at work and her refusal to get rid of the affair stuff or the EGF filling her head with negative stuff, I'll never know. So that's why I think I need to state my boundary that S16 and I are moving when this transfer comes up and for me to agree that she moves with us, she needs to get rid of the affair stuff. I figure us moving from the place where the A happened and all the triggers that go with W going to work everyday where they met HAVE to be having a negative affect on her emotions with me. I agree, concern for our son is not in the forefront of her mind, except in the selfish way that it affects HER.

I will talk with W before the move. I'm kind of stuck right this minute because I told W I wouldn't discuss any R stuff until she was ready to talk. So if I just bring it up out of the blue, then it'll wreck any trust she's gaining in me. I am not shutting the door on her if she doesn't move. In fact, I feel like us moving is the only way to SAVE our marriage, because if I continue to live with her until she figures it out, I will become the WAS. But if I move without her I can preserve what love I have left for her while she figures it out.

Is there anger because I'm being treated as the bad guy even though she's the one that had the affair? Yes. But not as much as you'd probably think. I don't feel like she should suffer because of her affair, but when someone will not take responsibility for their faults, it REALLY bugs me. I understand completely how A's happen. I understand completely that things between us and things I've done in the past contributed to where our marriage was that led to the affair. But what I will never understand is how someone can throw away everything we have together without even TRYING.

I do not expect her to suffer for her sin. I would not hold her A over her head if we moved forward. Trust me, I would like nothing better than to not post here everyday. Nothing would make me happier than to go a day WITHOUT thinking about this. But we'll never get to that point if she's unwilling to work through the issues with me.

I know it's easy to love the lovable. And trust me, she's done many things in our marriage that would make the average person cut tail and run, but I haven't, because I love her and made a commitment to her when we married. I truly believe I've forgiven her for her affair, but I have not forgiven her attitude that she's done nothing wrong and her attitude that I should just get over it and she doesn't need to do anything to help me through the worst pain I've ever experienced in my life. Like I mentioned to WDID. Back in Sept when I tried to tell W how much pain I was in, she ROLLED HER EYES.

I do agree with you on your comment that I do struggle with the fact that she had an A, tells me it's over and I should just get over it. I feel like she got to have the fun and excitement of being with someone new. She got to live the single life, go away for weekends with OM, live a secret life and all the excitement that goes with it and when the A ends, she just gets to say, "whoops, my bad, I did it and you just need to get over it if you want the pleasure of me staying in the marriage". I just don't see any self reflection in her.

Ok, I hope I've answered your questions. I'd be interested in what you think (and anyone else too).

W worked a little late last night. So I had about an hour and a half to myself when I got home. And I did a lot of thinking. Tell me your opinions on this.

It's been about two weeks since W moved to her new office for her temp assignment. IF she's not been in contact with OM, but the affair stuff she keeps in her regualr office has been triggering her bad, do you think that she's going through WD from that? She was fine last night. Wasn't terribly talkative, but I know she had a really busy day at work and then when she got home she made a pie to take into work today. So when she finally sat down she was really tired, but last night and this morning she was ok.

I also thought about how her mood changed a few weeks ago. Let's assume that she doesn't want to move because she likes where we live and she likes working in a different location than me. She likes the independence that it gives her. She could truly be reluctant to move back to our home office because then we'd be back in the same building and she fears she'll lose that independence?

One other opinion I need. Let's assume she WILL move at the end of the school year, but it's because of the reasons Sandi listed. When we talk about it, I plan on telling her that I think for our marriage to have a chance we need to move together AS SOON AS WE CAN and then list why I think that's so important. If she agrees, do I push for books, retro, getting rid of the affair stuff at that point or do I let that go for now knowing that if we move away from all the triggers here that we'll make enough progress that I can push for those things further down the road?

Ok, I've rambled enough. Let me have it!

[whatdidido]

You need to talk to her about all of this and decide together. You can't go into this having it all ready and decided. You will end up going into the discussion with a specific answer that will need to be said by her and when she doesn't say it you will have your set response. That is NOT communication.

Tell her how you feel. Let her tell you how she feels. Explain it all. Leave nothing unsaid. She may not respond the way you hope. She's human. She's not perfect. You may need to talk to her again after she has time to process it. You may need to talk to her again. Yes, you will have to state your boundaries. But, you have to communicate things first and talk them through.

There is a lot of emotion on both sides here. The conversation will not be picture perfect. One conversation can't possibly figure it all out. It is why I suggested you start talking now. You need to talk this out, not wait.

I understand you told her no R talk, but do you think it is better to not have R talk but then zap her with your decision without talking thoroughly. YOu can't not have R talk and then make this moving decision. You will have to tell her that.

[Hope4us]

I will WDID, I will.

This is the part that is so frustrating for me. I KNOW our communications could improve so much. That's why I've asked her to go to Retro mulitple times, but she won't.

So what's your opinion on the WD aspects of her moving offices? Could I be seeing some WD from the affair memento's in her office?

[whatdidido]

Even with everything gone, if she lets her mind go there, she has continuing WD over and over. I still have issues, though few and far between. It doesn't take much, really. Those TV shows are the worst. She's kinda just getting through the day right now. She hasn't done the work really needed, or had those needed talks with you yet. She's just running around "in her own head" right now and trying to get to a less emotional place about the A.

If you have this talk with her (SOON!) you may find yourself feeling like you are banging your head against the wall, and she may feel the same thing. This is the lack of communication. Then, in that conversation you point out that fact. That you feel like you are not being heard, and it looks like she feels the same way. Talk about that. Talk about how you can't have a good marriage if you can't communicate and ask her how to fix it. You have ideas as well to share.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Even with everything gone, if she lets her mind go there, she has continuing WD over and over. I still have issues, though few and far between. It doesn't take much, really. Those TV shows are the worst. She's kinda just getting through the day right now. She hasn't done the work really needed, or had those needed talks with you yet. She's just running around "in her own head" right now and trying to get to a less emotional place about the A.

BINGO. I guess what remains to be seen, however, is whether or not one can TALK a stubborn, still-foggy wayward spouse into "doing the work," or whether that has to come from a personal decision born of true repentance and conviction.

I'm skeptical. One of the very tough things I had to learn in my sitch is that only by ACTIONS can we judge others, and only by actions can we ourselves persuade. I like to fancy myself a wordsmith, and I used to think (and still have to fight the belief) that if I could only string together just the RIGHT combination of words, said in JUST the right sort of way . . . why THEN she'll HAVE to love me!

Wrong. You can't convince another person of anything, at least not when it comes to matters love and sex, I am convinced. All you can do is lay out your own personal boundaries, and let them know that whatever they decide, you will then base YOUR decisions on THEIR decision.

Imploring her is not going to help.

Puppy

[Hope4us]

Makes sense. I think you could be right when you said a number of posts ago that when we were on vacation, W forgot about all that stuff and let herself FEEL. But when she went back to work, all those things came flooding back. And also why she's so different on the weekends vs. the work week. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but maybe, just maybe, she's not in contact with OM, but everything else that triggers her is the road block. Would make sense in that she's talking about our future, etc, but there's something holding her back.

Just reinforces to me that our only chance is to move away from here and all the triggers that go with it.

We'll have the conversation. I just think it's best to wait until I know more about the move to bring it up. If I bring it up prior to that it's like I'm breaking my word that I wouldn't talk about it until she was ready.

[Hope4us]

Even with everything gone, if she lets her mind go there, she has continuing WD over and over. I still have issues, though few and far between. It doesn't take much, really. Those TV shows are the worst. She's kinda just getting through the day right now. She hasn't done the work really needed, or had those needed talks with you yet. She's just running around "in her own head" right now and trying to get to a less emotional place about the A.

BINGO. I guess what remains to be seen, however, is whether or not one can TALK a stubborn, still-foggy wayward spouse into "doing the work," or whether that has to come from a personal decision born of true repentance and conviction.

I'm skeptical. One of the very tough things I had to learn in my sitch is that only by ACTIONS can we judge others, and only by actions can we ourselves persuade. I like to fancy myself a wordsmith, and I used to think (and still have to fight the belief) that if I could only string together just the RIGHT combination of words, said in JUST the right sort of way . . . why THEN she'll HAVE to love me!

Wrong. You can't convince another person of anything, at least not when it comes to matters love and sex, I am convinced. All you can do is lay out your own personal boundaries, and let them know that whatever they decide, you will then base YOUR decisions on THEIR decision.

Imploring her is not going to help.

Puppy

Hence my thoughts that the only chance our marriage has is for US to move so she doesn't have the constant reminders OR for S16 and I to move and she figures it out on her own.