This is just my frustration and sheer sadness peeking through, but has anyone thought that what we are doing is just pointless. That we are trying to change people who feel they have nothing to change. That no on can truly change to the extent that we want. We're like 2 different species.
If you were to ask me what I wanted to do with my spare time, I'd say, "sex" or just simply cuddling, anything that involved being close. If you were to ask my H, he'd say ANYTHING but that. So what makes me right and him wrong??
I know " you " may say it's not a matter of being right or wrong, and I get that. But, it is a matter of wanting 2 very different things. I am with some1 who just doesn't want or feel the need to be close. That's OK for him, so where do I get off saying it's not.
Starting to see that maybe Im on my own here. That in the end Ill be forced to make the decision of either celibacy OR divorce. Ughh!
Diane, I want you to know that you are not alone in this. As much progress as I have made with my wife, she still does not feel the same about intimacy as I do. She is still only trying because she knows if she doesn't, that I would leave her. To her it's not something that she wants to do, it's something that she has to do.
I wrote in my journal a long time ago a long term goal: I want her to want this for herself. Until I feel that she really WANTS THIS I not sure I can be happy with her.
So here I am still wondering if this longterm goal of mine will ever be met. You are right that in the end if they can't or won't ever want to be close to us then it is up to ourselves to decide if we can live without what we desire so much....If we can't live without it then we move on..... It is a very difficult decision to make.
You know, after ALL these posts, and all this frustration, something never really occurred to me. I always was thinking that eventually he would "WANT" like me. He probably never will. he may be able to learn to " do " more, but never want like me. Hope that makes sense. And your right Cinco, I need to figure out if that's enough for me. In the long run, I do think I want to be with someone who " craves " like me.... lol Just realized this sounds a little batty.... lol I'm sure you all know what I mean. I have been with someone in the past who was HD. Its fun, the want, the chase, the playfulness. All those wonderful things. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Gonna have to think on this as well.
-- Update --
H has been calling A TON more, and when he can't get a hold of me, he sends a text. Usually a I love you, or I miss you. Which is sweet and all, but I am making myself not send a reply of, IM NOT 14! Sounds mean, but although very cute, I need a H here soon. :S I bit the bullet and finally asked. I asked if he sent anything. YUP< Forget this waiting. He'll either write now, or have to answer with something.
I always was thinking that eventually he would "WANT" like me. He probably never will. he may be able to learn to " do " more, but never want like me. Hope that makes sense.
Diane - Yes, this makes perfect sense! It's that desire to be wanted that makes us want this so badly with our spouses. How could they ever stop wanting us?
I'm sure you saw my post:
Originally Posted By: Cinco
One comment she made says it all.
"H, I don't understand why you still can't keep your hands off of me."
This, to me, says that there is no desire in her for me like the desire that I have for her. I have never stopped wanting her though. Her comment indicates that she simply doesn't understand that I want her so much and she probably doesn't understand this because she doesn't feel the same way for me. Therefore she simply cannot relate to the way that I feel.
As much as we want this from them, only they can decide to want to want us again. All we can do is to hope that it will happen, ask them and then hope for this from them.
While the INITIAL impetus for change on your spouse's part may be a fear of losing you if they don't do so (i.e. coercion), over time, they will hopefully begin to see the benefits for themselves, personally, and will want to keep the improvements in your intimate relationship rolling along on their own.
It takes time -- months, at least -- to reach this point. You have to be patient and let them discover (or re-discover) their desires for intimacy on their own time-frame. Initially it WILL feel like you are coercing them and forcing them to be intimate with you. And they will feel like they are being pushed and prodded into it. You'll need to keep your own desires in check, and apply just enough pressure 'on the reins' to keep them moving forward, while not pulling so hard as to make them **really** uncomfortable and make them balk or bolt (yes, we're back to mule analogies).
My wife and I are a little over a year into our recovery process. When we first began this journey, my wife could easily do without sex at all, and rarely wanted any form of touch or intimacy. She was comfortable and stable behind her 'shield' or 'bubble' as I think of it. Initially, she ONLY began making changes toward increasing the level of intimacy between us because she understood that if she didn't, she would lose me, period --> I made it very clear that this was no idle threat, that this was our last chance to make it work. Did I feel like a heel and an a$$ in laying out such an ultimatum? Yes. However, for the first time in years I was being honest with both myself and her about our relationship, rather than continuing to resent her and count down the days (like a prisoner monitoring his prison sentence) until the last child graduated from high school and I ended it then. I put my cards face up on the table, so that she could finally see clearly the consequences for NOT working with me to fix our relationship.
At the same time, and I think that this is very important, I made it very clear that I was willing to bust my butt and MAKE CHANGES MYSELF, that would benefit our relationship. I was willing to make significant changes within myself, meet her halfway, and work to meet her needs in the relationship, to make her feel loved in the ways that are important to her. I made it clear that I was willing to work as hard as I was asking her to work, at making things better between us: and yes, that included finding a sexual pace and level of intimacy that may not be my 'ideal' or 'dream' level, but one that we could both be happy within.
With time -- months -- of work on both of our parts, she has slowly but surely begun to experience an 'awakening' of desire within herself for both non-sexual and sexual intimacy. She's starting to want this not just to save her marriage, because it is of benefit to HER as well, and she can begin to see and experience those benefits. But, it's all still very fragile at this stage, and all new, and can all too easily be shunted aside in favor of our old, broken mode of operation. I've been thrilled to watch this new 'flower' of desire break the surface, but man, do I have to really watch myself and not attempt over-water or over-fertilize it.
You guys have been talking about your desire for sex as a craving, and by not having it, you crave it all the more. I can identify with that sentiment wholeheartedly, For years, I felt like a kid outside of a candy store, only able to look at the display windows and dream. Now, I have a different problem: I've been let into the candy store, and it's all I can do not to binge-eat and make myself (ourselves) sick. The as-yet unhealed part of me is crying "Eat all you can now, because the cop's about to come in the door and haul your undeserving butt right back out into the cold again." My struggle at the moment is to take things slowly and in moderation, and keep the 'candy eating' healthy and pleasurable for both of us.
They can't develop a desire overnight, any more than you can stifle your 'candy craving' overnight. Baby-steps and patience is needed, by both of you.
Take care,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I am fuming. Someone PLEASE tell me what I do with this ???
He calls tonight, and its been nice the past month. A lot more calls, and texts here and there. So............ YAH, I asked. Had to. I asked, " have you sent any letters " He replies, no... hmmmmmm SO yes, I pushed and asked if he was going to. He then says he doesn't know. Again, hmmmmmmmmmm . Oh, btw, in between these 2 questions I get 5 mins of -- SILENCE ----- SO frustrating!! Then I asked will he, and he responds with maybe, he doesn't want to promise anything. WTF We discussed this when we had the big fight. He was going to write cause he can't talk. Now its selective amnesia again?? Yah, I'm annoyed right now and it is taking everything I have not to call back and freak. I left it at I had to go before I said something I regretted. That I did understand and I would bear with him, but I need something.
I mean, I can bear with him as he asked me to do, but don't I deserve something......... arghhhhhhhh
Oh Diane! At least he is trying with more calls and texts. Maybe he just doesn't know what it is he wants to say in a letter yet. That or when he is away he simply enters his "bubble", as Baggy says, and in this comfort zone doesn't really think about it. It may be a stretch for him to just phone & text more.
Maybe this will give him something to think about now though. And just maybe this was the gentle pressure on his "reins" to get him moving again. I sure hope so for you Diane, I know how it feels to make a plea for change only to have things fall back to their "safe zone" when the dust has settled.
I'll pray that your H will see how important this is to the both of you.
I think I have come to the conclusion that I have to make a decision. I understand why he'd enter the " bubble " I really do feel for him, however, here's the thing ; I NEED something. Throw me a crumb for #$#%# sakes. lol I called him back and left 2 messages. Basically saying that WE had BOTH decided what would happen and it wasn't a maybe.His selective memory BS isn's going to work this time << ( left that part out ) lol That I indeed need something, not much, that I was willing to bear with him as he asked, but that he also had to make some kind of effort. Otherwise why bother. < ( left that part out as well.... I was diplomatic and polite over the whole thing. He had said earlier he only said he'd read the book. Arghhh. I didn't ask if he had or where he's as for fear of that answer.
Sometimes I wonder why I bothered. I know I can't live with someone who doesn't want as I do, who doesn't see the true value of all this, yet I'm pushing.
SO.............. HERE'S THE NEW PLAN
I will be patient for a few months only. I will see if he starts to communicate thru email when he has this laptop. If not, I'm out. I'm done............ Sounds harsh, but if he can't even bother with emails when he has the opportunity, he loses!
I am flying to where H is next friday to see him and to spend the night there to attend a Christmas Party. Too be honest, I didn't really want to go because my head isn't on right quite yet, but in the spirit of trying I am going. Might be good for us. Here's hoping!
Hi, Diane & everyone else......I'm still here.....
Besides holiday & shopping & trying to get out to the stable, I got called in to work. Up at 4:30 to open the place at 6. Never sleep well the nite B4, now exhausted, one more day to go. I've got to pack my breakfast & get to bed, but I wanted to see how all of you are doing.
H never said anything about the cigars, so I eventually did. Don't know if its can't, won't or don' wanna, but I'm sure I'll find 'em again some time in the future. He doesn't say much when I talk about the damage from apnea. I read him the list. (I go with facts & logic)Last week he appeared to "get it" - or believe what I'm telling him. Not as crabby about it anyway. The Sun B4 Thanksgiving, he got totally blasted while I was out. He did that once in July, freaked me out. Go on, fry your brain, your ba**s, who cares? He'd been talking to bro on phone, wonder what they talked about that set him off. I took pix of him on my phone, emailed them to myself & printed them. He didn't remember me coming home & finding him half asleep, falling off the couch, bending his glasses....He did get into bed & slept a couple hours. When he woke up I was soaking in the tub & he came in to say HI & ask what time I got home, innocent as a baby. HE DIDN'T REMEMBER A THING!!! NOT EVEN WHEN I SHOWED HIM HIS GLASSES & THE PIX!! Scary. Not only that, he never has hangovers not even a headache. I hate him LOL -maybe if he did, he'd think twice B4 drinking. I'd love to get lit once in awhile, altho not that bad, but hangovers are like morning sickness & after 7 months of that w/all 3 kids.........noooooo waaaaaayyyyy!!!!!!
He worked a bunch of OT befor the holiday so didn't start the new machine till last Wed. Uses it evey nite, about 5 hours. Won't hear about the CT scan till the 11th. We shopped for a child who lives in a "home" on Sat. (Church has list of needy kids) H was having fun picking out little jeans & shirts,toys. Had lunch out & when we got home he wanted to have some fun in the sack then take a nap. WOOZERS! Usually its just "nap" & no fun. This is the first time I've felt like he really wanted to rather than just doing it to keep me from freaking or whatever. Last couple times, no pill & things worked pretty well. He still won't talk tho. Just says "I don't talk". He's read a little more of the book. Hope he gets why I'd like to at least hear him react when he comes.
He'll be done w/the ACPAP 2-week trial on the 10th, then they'll know what changes his regular one needs. He didn't take naps over the weekend. Maybe the thing is doing its job. Hope so.
Diane, I think both our guys have characteristics they may never "grow" out of. I'm going to keep trying, but he may never talk much about or during sex. I'll never know whether one experience was better than another or mind blowing, or lousy. I just keep asking. Maybe he'll surprise me & try it one day.
Your guy, on the other hand, may never have grown past 10 or 11 yrs old. Because of abuse to him & whatever he saw & heard his parents doing/fighting about he could have just shut down or shut out any thoughts about sex if it was part of the chaos. Without therapy of some kind, he may never be able to get past it. Keep insisting he read the book as agreed. (Maybe write down what you agree on & both of you sign & date it). Insist on more communication than phone calls, altho that may be all he can do. If he's hoping it'll blow over as in the past, and you let it drop, he'll never attempt to change in the future.
"Getting Through to the Man You Love" has a lot of insight into why we keep doing the same things & getting the same results. Maybe your library has a copy. It helped me to 'reorganize' getting across what I need and getting some cooperation instead of stonewalling. When I stick to the plan, he's pretty nice. I know he's tired of fighting and wrecking weekends. (Takes 2 to make a fight...maybe he's realized he can't be flying off the handle all the time). Guys don't handle change well. Besides having to start thinking about sex again, he has bad health habits that are catching up to him that he knows he should have changed years ago.
In a way you're asking your H to change his whole attitude about how to live his life. (bigger than smoking, drinking & fatty food!)His partner has needs he never took into consideration and she does not share his values in that regard. He may be afraid to try for fear he can't do it. None of us know how to help him or motivate him, but as long as you pleasantly and firmly continue to insist he try, he can't duck it this time. Pleasant & firm isn't a fight, not even an argument. Shouldn't be scary.
I hope you can relax and enjoy the party. What if you are pleasant, happy, not seeming to be watching him, & waiting. Pretend its a fun evening and you know you'll be together later. As though you have faith in him to do as you'd like. Maybe with "Mrs. Sunshine" and no obvious pressure, he'll be OK. You already know the other way doesn't work. He might be thinking about giving you the good time you'd like, but dreading your anger. Wait & see. You can always do the reminding before you leave if you have to. Good luck. I'll be thinking about you, keeping my fingers crossed. J
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
