Ok. I'll accept that. And one other thing that makes me KNOW she wasn't playing me. Let's just say....uh.....some of the things that were done...uh....show me she was into it, if you know what I mean.....
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
I never said your marriage was so bad that an affair had to appen. There is NEVER a good reason to have an affair. Maybe what I said came out wrong. DOes she still say to you that "she hasn't loved you for years, if ever"? That was foggy thinking. I don't think she still has that thinking. Why do you think she still hangs on to it? Because you aren't making love? YOu need to talk to her about these things. You are making assumptions and it leads you to a bad place.
The connection is there, but my guess is she is dealing with her demons. You didn't cheat on your spouse, she did. To deal with that thought totally is more painful than you realize. Is it what a cheating spouse deserves? Yep. Paying the consequence. But, to wrap our minds around the fact that we have done such a horrible, immoral thing and admit that we have chosen this and keep nothing in our heads to protect us from this fact is a feeling that I can't explain. She will get there, but I can see how many have psychological problems because of it. Depression sets in, guilt like no other, questioning of religion and "what will happen to me", etc. She is outwardly showing stubborness, but part of that is just her and has nothing to do with the affair. You told us that about her. We all have defense mechanisms. Her normal defense mechanism is being snappy and stubborn.
No, it doesn't seem right for you to have to pay for the fact she cheated. But, some day you may do something wrong. I Never in a million years would have thought I was capable of cheating on my husband. YOu would want her to stand by you, too, if you make a horrible mistake. Without her begging you for your forgiveness you don't see her remorse. But, remember the kind of woman she is. She looks down a lot, talks quietly a lot, changes subjects a lot......she feels remorseful. The kind of woman you married is not one to fall to her knees and ask for forgiveness even though she should. Remember, part of that is why you love her. If you asked her for some things you need, my guess is she'd give them to you. You have yet to talk or ask her, though.
Going through the motions. SOmetimes you have to do that. She may be going through the motions with you as well sometimes. Every day is different. YOu can't stay in a perpetual state of desire. If We were made that way, we would get nothing done. Seriously. NOthing will ever be perfect. You will still fight like married couples do. Have you had a married couple fight lately? Not really....everything is so eggshellish that if she did have a big argument it could mean you walk out on her. I had a friend tell me how some days she looks at her husband and thinks, "You know, you really aren't doing it for me today." She laughs and says how that doesn't mean she doesn't love him.
YOu continue to say she is ambivalent, but I don't know why you think that unless you aren't telling us things on here. The things you tell me show that she is not ambivalent. EXCEPT sex. Remember, she had some major psychological issues before you were married regarding sex. So, I could see that sex could be the toughest hurdle for her. Perhaps that is something that only a psychiatrist can help her with and you will need to ask her to see one...but you will have to talk to her about these things for that to happen.
Progress is slow. SOmetimes you can't speed it up when there is so much repair work to do. But, sometimes you can speed things up of you communicate together.
How long did it take for me to have "those" feelings? I'll answer by saying that it is only recently that I have had those feelings. But, our sexual issues are way more involved than I have shared on here. The human mind and emotions are an amazing thing. The walls we learn to build protect us from further emotional hurt. To tear those walls puts you in a very vunerable state. Something that is easier to do is to take the wall down brick by brick rather than demolishing it all at once. At least for me, anyway.
Wow WDID. Let me see if I can respond to your questions/comments.
No, I heard that "I haven't loved you our whole marriage" the same night I got the ILYB...speech. I guess my stating that she still thinks that way is based on her saying to me a couple months ago "you want me to tell you I'll try to make our marriage work, but I don't want to say that when I don't have those feelings". So as late as Sept she still doesn't have those feelings and to her, she has to have those feelings before she'll even say she wants to try. And it has nothing to do with not ML.
I'm KNOW she doesn't feel the connection is there. It was there while we were on vacation. But once she returned to work, BAM. I get the feeling that she's just playing along for the next couple years, still talking to OM periodically thinking that "if it's right between H and I, it shouldn't matter if I talk to OM". I know I can't read her mind, but if she's not thinking that, why wouldn't she get rid of her affair stuff even after I've poured my heart out to her how that stuff makes me feel? Are you sure she's dealing with her demons? She said to me in Sept, "Am I ashamed of what I've done? I guess a little. But I'm more ashamed of how you've hurt me in the past year". So what would that make you think? Sounds like someone who is still hanging on to the rationalization that yeah, what she did is wrong, but H is an animal so I was justified in doing it. Does she feell guilty? Doesn't seem to. When she sits and giggles when somethings on T.V. dealing with affairs. And when I try to tell her how her affair affected me and how much pain I'm in and she just rolls her eyes, it just doesn't sound like she feels guilty to me.
Have I done some stuff I need to be forgiven for? Sure. Is it anything CLOSE to her having an affair? Nope. Am I asking her to beg for my forgivness? NO. But it would be nice for her to say "I made a mistake, please forgive me". But how can I expect that when as shortly ago as Sept she was telling me she's "a little ashamed" of what she's done, but more ashamed of what I've done in the last year?
I understand there are ups and downs in marriage. Thing is, I don't think she does. I think she equates love with the "high" of a new relationship. And if she does, I might as well quit now, because that's never going to happen with us after being married for going on 24 years.
I guess I think I've covered why I think she's ambivalent. I know she's had some major trauma in her life. That's part of the reason I'm still here. Because I know she's dealing with things that most of us will never begin to understand what she's going through. But the only way she's ever going to get there is to get some professional help. And she refuses to do that because that would wreck her "I can take care of myself" persona.
I know progress is slow. I KNOW. But I just don't know if I can take getting nothing from her (and I'm not talking about sex) for as long as it seems it's going to take. I see a lot of my W in the comment you made about building up the walls. I think she has the Great Wall of China around herself to protect herself from those things we've talked about before. The question is, will she ever let me in or am I just wasting my time?
I hope I don't sound arguementative. It wasn't meant that way. You know I highly value your opinions. I'm just beat down and don't know how much longer I can go without her even saying "I want to try". Because that's all it'd take.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
Wow WDID. Let me see if I can respond to your questions/comments.
No, I heard that "I haven't loved you our whole marriage" the same night I got the ILYB...speech. I guess my stating that she still thinks that way is based on her saying to me a couple months ago "you want me to tell you I'll try to make our marriage work, but I don't want to say that when I don't have those feelings". So as late as Sept she still doesn't have those feelings and to her, she has to have those feelings before she'll even say she wants to try. And it has nothing to do with not ML.
I'm KNOW she doesn't feel the connection is there. It was there while we were on vacation. But once she returned to work, BAM. I get the feeling that she's just playing along for the next couple years, still talking to OM periodically thinking that "if it's right between H and I, it shouldn't matter if I talk to OM". I know I can't read her mind, but if she's not thinking that, why wouldn't she get rid of her affair stuff even after I've poured my heart out to her how that stuff makes me feel? Are you sure she's dealing with her demons? She said to me in Sept, "Am I ashamed of what I've done? I guess a little. But I'm more ashamed of how you've hurt me in the past year". So what would that make you think? Sounds like someone who is still hanging on to the rationalization that yeah, what she did is wrong, but H is an animal so I was justified in doing it. Does she feell guilty? Doesn't seem to. When she sits and giggles when somethings on T.V. dealing with affairs. And when I try to tell her how her affair affected me and how much pain I'm in and she just rolls her eyes, it just doesn't sound like she feels guilty to me.
I gotta say, WDID, that just as an outsider looking in for these past several months on ol' H4U here, that this has been my perception as well. Now granted, I form my opinion about his wife, and her motivations, ONLY from his posts to us, but I'm pretty good at sniffing out real remorse from crocodile tears and stubborn bullchit, and I haven't seen much of the former from Ms. "Won't-Get-Rid-of-the-Affair Undies." Nope.
No, I don't think you are being argumentative. We are just talking back and forth, thinking aloud, trying to see things in maybe a different way and understand them. This forum is good for that. Sometimes me questioning you on things can make you see things more strongly and more clearly.
AFter reading your response, there is no doubt in my mind you need to sit down and talk with her face to face about this stuff. Now. Not when you have your move all figured out. That's secondary. That can happen when it has to happen. That has nothing to do with some of these things you need to talk about.
These things concern me: 1. "you want me to tell you I'll try to make my marriage work, but I don't want to say that when I don't have those feelings"- She needs to be learning about these things. Until she learns something different, she can't think differently.
2. Possibly still talking to OM. Again, unless she learns and educates herself on what talking to the OM does, she cannot think differently about it.
3. NOt getting rid of the affair stuff. Same as above.
4. When you tell her how the affair affected you and how much pain you are in she rolls her eyes. (Did you tell us this before? I must have missed this discussion.) This is pretty bad. NOt only books and educating herself, my guess is she needs counseling with you to hear/feel your pain.
5. Equating love with the "high" of a new relationship. Needs to be educating herself to know differently about this.
You said she said "Am I ashamed of what I've done? I guess a little. But I'm more ashamed of how you've hurt me in the past year." OK for whatever reason, she believes you have hurt her. What does she say about this? How does she believe you hurt her?
Nothing you have done in your life thus far is CLOSE to having an affair, but some day you may make a big mistake. You are human. I would never had said this before having an affair myself. If my H would have had the A before me, I would be feeling the same way. So, I understand where you are coming from.
Bottom line, she needs to be educating herself with books or counseling to get to the place you want her. She cannot see/think differently unless she knows of something different to think. She will not just get there on her own. These are things you will have to ask her to do. Again, has nothing to do with the move. In fact, she will need time to read, process, read, process, read, go to counseling, process, etc. Perhaps, before making a big move.
You are going to have to ask her for some things and talk to her. Like I asked before: When is the "no R talk" restriction over?
I've asked her repeatedly to read books, go to Retro, talk to a pro marriage counselor and she's refused. Won't even discuss it.
She's mad at me and feels hurt because I told the kids what was going on. Mind you, I gave her 7 months to end her affair before telling them and both the boys ended up THANKING me for telling them the truth, but she has said that I shouldn't have involved the kids in an adult situation. I guess she thinks having an affair and planning on introducing your kids to your affair partner is ok, but not them knowing the truth. And yes, I KNOW she was going to try to introduce the POS to my kids. She asked S16 if he wanted to go to the football game that she went to with OM last Oct. She's also very hurt that I told OMW that she needed to get tested for STD's. I know I've mentioned it before, but W has one (from a relationship prior to our marriage). And so do I, from her. No, she never told me about it before it was too late for me also. She is convinced I told OMW to hurt her. Couldn't be farther from the truth. I told OMW for one reason. So she could protect herself. That's the only reason.
I've told her on a number of occasions that for her to let go of her feelings for OM she has to get rid of the glass/undies/pictures from her affair. All she says is "it's just a glass". "They're just undies". I say, "if it's just a glass, then what is the problem getting rid of it" and she says "it means nothing, it's just a glass". Now you and I know that's bullchit, but she either doesn't see the harm or loves how it makes her feel and won't let that go.
Yes, I mentioned a number of times me telling her how much pain I was in from her affair and she just rolled her eyes.
Again, educating herself on the difference between love and lust just isn't going to happen unless they give those educations in the romance novels. Oh yeah, that's right, in those novels they glorify affairs. In fact, she had one of those books laying around and S16 picked it up and he was so pissed he threw the book on the floor. Know what the cover said? "She never knew what passion was until she met him. Even though they would never be together, their affair set her free". Just how am I supposed to put my marriage together when she's reading this crap?
Your last paragraph is the exact reason I think I need to take S16 and move without her. I feel that's the only way she's going to figure out what she wants. And if it's not me, so be it, but at least S20, S16 and I will be removed from the lies, the secrecy, the ambivalance.
Ok, hit me in the head. I've made great progress. We're friends now, it'll come........yeah, right.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
When did you ask her to read the books, retrouvaille, counseling, etc.? Way earlier? RIght after she ended the affair? If so, please try again. She seems in a better place now than before. WHen's the last time you had a heart to heart?
I gave her some info on Retro in early Sept. Asked her to take a look at it and let me know what she thought. Just like everything else, she never responded.
Mid Sept, asked her if she'd be willing to read some books on recovering a marriage after an affair (in a letter) and said some other things. I told her I wasn't looking for a response to the letter other than I wanted to know if she'd be willing to read the books or not. No response.
I can't say we've ever had a heart to heart since this started. Every time I try to talk to her about it she just sits there. She claims I'm attacking her because "I told you I don't want to discuss it, so every time you bring it up I just feel attacked". In late August when I told her if she didn't even want to "try" we should just end it now because I can't go on like we are she replied (in an email), "I was a ball of nerves at work yesterday because you just constantly bring the affair up. I'm trying to move on but you won't let me and I don't want to live like this".
So, does that sound like someone who's been NC "for months"? Doesn't sound like it to me. Since that time I've tried to communicate about R things through letters so she doesn't feel attacked or threatened. All that seems to do is allow her to ignore anything I've said.
My boss told me he'd know more later this week as to the timing of the move etc. Once I know that, we'll be having the heart to heart. No anger. No attacking. Just me saying how I feel and telling her that for us to have a chance I need her to read some books and get rid of the affair stuff. If she's not willing to do that, then she can stay here and figure out what she wants.
I'm just tired of the bullchit.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
The reason why I ask those questions is because it seems that you are at the point of having a heart to heart or giving an ultimatum. Why not try the heart to heart with no distractions? If she rolls her eyes, you call her on it. If she said it is unnecessary to do x, y, z, you say it is necessary for YOU. Tell her the things you have noticed her doing for you, tell her the things you have been doing for her, and then explain that you need a few more things in order for the marriage to go anywhere. YOu may give your ultimatum in the end, but at least you talked to her first without assumptions.
Her lack of response does not mean no. YOu can't assume that. If it is a no, let her verbalize it to you and explain why so you have a chance to make your rationale as well.
The statement about bringing the affair up.....just so ya know, part of that is probably true on her point. If she is trying to move past it and open her heart to you, she can't be reminded of it/him over and over. Yet, you need these pieces first...you need to tell her that. You can let the past be the past once some issues are talked about, etc.
Why do you need to know about the move to have the heart to heart? Is it because you want something to whip out when/if she won't do what you ask her?
