Hi Tom: I've been having some of those same thoughts lately...and finding myself resisting them at times though...
Those two very thoughts passed through my head today - that she's the mother of my son and that she's beautiful...
It's been strange to have those conversations with my S11 where he just tells me how much happier he is now...and I have no real reason to doubt him and his honesty about the situation...
It's an interesting question to ask oneself - if I just met her, would I be interested? Right now...no...not at all...of course I would see her as physically attractive - but I don't know if I would want to sit down and have a conversation with her anymore...but still I wonder...am I just putting up a shield? Or am I pulling away in a big way?
While reading the Stosny book tonight I had a thought about my wife and realized that it's almost like I'm dealing with two different people/situations at once...on the one hand, there is the DBing...and the actions that I would perform if I wanted to "work" on our marriage - my DB brain reads the Stosny book and realizes that there are many ways in which I played the part of the man resented her, belittled her and turned away from her...and then I realize that there's this other part to her...the part that is in crisis - the part of her that is suffering through something just terrible...and I just don't know who she is anymore...and who will come out in the end...
And tonight, for the first time since she moved out, I did not talk with her at all today...I so wanted to call and say goodnight to my baby boy...but I just did not want to talk with her anymore...I don't even want to see her anymore...
I'm learning to enjoy my life in a big way...even through the moments of sadness that still invade...but those moments are finding me less and less...and when they do, they're not as intense as they used to be...
Hey Carlos I haven't been stopped by, but I am keeping it up with your sitch. I am glad to see you enjoying life more and your S11 is much happier. That's really important. I did ask the myself the same questions earlier about my W. Like you and Tom, I couldn't come up with real good reasons for us to stay together. I guess that's what detachment is all about. Our Ws are like aliens now. They are not the same person that we once married to anymore. Keep up all your good works. You have a good day.
NW626
Me:33 STBXW:38 S:3 It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you fight the fight....!!
Hi NW... Had to get up extra early to get my S11 to school this morning. He was selected to be on his school's math team - and they meet at 7am on Mondays...which is tough since I live an hour away from his school...but he seems to like the quiet of the early morning (he always has)...and so we just had a nice talk on the way up. He's such a fine child - everything about him just makes me proud.
It was tough not calling to say goodnight to our baby last night - it was a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE 180 for me...and I'm still not sure it was the best thing to do...but I am thinking that from now on I will not contact her on Sundays...I just don't want to talk with her at all.
I'm thinking about these 180s all over again...and wondering just what else I could be doing...though not for her or our M but for me...In reading some other posts - I think it was one from M from Tenn - there was a comment about 180s being a way of discovering ourselves - almost by turning around our own habits and stepping out of our familiar shells we suddenly see a different side of ourselves that we hadn't fully developed or embraced. And so I'm thinking about 180s...exercise - which I thought was one of my 180s - actually started before all this stuff happened...in fact...I started playing on a soccer team more than a year ago - and at the time, my wife was very excited about it - now it's something that she holds against me - and uses as evidence that I don't care about the family because I "have interests outside the marriage." That is an actual quote of something she said to me when criticizing my playing soccer...and going for runs...
So...not calling on Sunday was a true 180 - and totally against my nature...so what else can I do? My language of love tends to be gift giving...I was thinking today - as Christmas approaches - how over the last ten years I would spend this time finding surprising gifts for my wife...but now I won't be getting her anything (another 180?). Last year was the first time in ages that she ever actually got me a Christmas present...prior to that she would often just give me a piece of paper with a promise of something on it...and none of those promises have ever come to anything...like concert tickets, etc.
Last year, about this time, I surprised her with tickets to see her favorite band perform at the Disney Hall...her eyes lit up when she realized where our seats were...and I finally felt like she understood how much I loved her...but that wasn't the case, I suppose...and that's what's gone through my head this morning...how many times I've felt like she takes and takes and takes from this relationship but gives so little back in return. I've loved her so very much - despite knowing that about her - for many years...and yet now I wonder if I could ever go back to being with someone like her - someone that seems entitled to everything - someone that resents having to work - that resents having to help out around the house - that resents being intimate - that resents giving time to me or my older son? The short answer is no...I could not have stayed in the marriage we had...which is why I was the first one to bring up the D word - months ago - though I was then the one to back off when I thought - wait a minute...let's work at this for real and improve ourselves...
The fact is, and I'm getting this clearly now - we could never get to where we need be (as individuals - not as a couple) if we didn't break all the eggs in the house first - and for the last few months I've been spending too much of my time picking all the shells out of the eggs...and not thinking about what they could be used for now that they're broken...a new omelet...a real big one...made to order...just the way I like it...and I think my wife would probably use her portion of the broken eggs to make a cake...and then try to have it and eat it too...
Hi, I have been where you are. The last few months I wondered how come I wasnt the one to pull the trigger...
180s: you have to try 180s that are good for you. Not things that are different but "worse" you hope she will notice. Calling your baby IMO is a good example of a ..."poor" one. You missed talking to your baby and she probably thinks you are an insensitive father. 180s should be breaking bad habits or doing something they would think is out of your character, a surprise that would leave them wondering, not getting them mad.
LL, what is her love language? You should try to adjust acting having in mind her love language and if gifts isnt hers, you have to realise she will not feel loved and wont even miss what you did the years before. On the other hand, I agree, dont buy her anything, maybe a card from your baby or something very simple.
The way you decsribe her she is full with resentment and anger. These feelings have to subside before you can even hope for progress. Maybe you staying away and dark will give her the chance to see it wasnt you that caused all this but it's her own problems that she neds to deal with. Stay strong K
Hi Kalni: One thing is for sure...trying to be a better person doesn't make one idiot-proof...
Not calling to talk to my baby felt so horrible - and it still bugged me this morning...and I am so glad that you gave me a straight-forward reality check...I'm going to stick to the more positive 180s...not calling was definitely out of character - but not surprising in any good way...
Her LL is words of affirmation - followed closely by acts of service...when she loves, she goes out of her way for people - but what she values most is affirmation...something she never got from her family...and something that I know I pulled away from her as I grew more distant (and resentful). Words of affirmation...yup...probably the hardest kind of love to offer her while we're separated - and she takes every conversation as an opportunity to attack or threaten me...
I would love to tell her how much I admire her love for our baby, her hard work, her strength in making the painful decision to move out and work on herself...all things that I've said to her in the month before she moved out - and all things that I meant...but all things that were met with a lot of anger and bitterness....
Revised plan: stay dark on all things except our baby and finances...no R/M talk at all...no pursuing...no future talk...no getting baited into arguments...but here's the strange thing...I'm not going to do these things with the goal of saving our marriage - thats out of my hands completely - and I don't know if we'll ever get there anyway - rather - I'm doing these things out of love for her - and a hope that she might find herself. Even if my love for her fades...I still know that she is a good person - and can be a great mother - and I just wish for her to find the healthy space to become that great person she deserves to be - despite her terrible childhood...
Thanks, Kalni - for helping me get back on track....feeling clearer now.
Dont smoother her (is it how you say that?). Stay low for now, you need to at least have 4-5 peaceful interactions before you can consider it progress...
I have to apologize b/c I posted to you a while ago and then didn't check back on you. I'm so sorry for that. However, I am caught up now as I've read through your other threads and I can see you are making some excellent progress.
However, I want to comment on what Kalni said to you here (and from experience, I know this is a wonderful woman, so consider yourself lucky that she's keeping an eye on you. I wouldn't be anywhere near where I'm at now w/out my lovely Greek friend). Anyway, she wrote:
Quote:
180s: you have to try 180s that are good for you.
It took me FOREVER to figure this out. I've been on this board since late January '08 and just last week figured out how to do 180s the right way.
See, I'd been doing my 180s w/some hidden agenda in mind. It was weird, but I was doing things for my now XW to notice ME and to finally stop being so angry at me. However, once I figured out how to just "let go" and do for me, things just made sense.
You mentioned earlier that you don't know if you'd be attracted to her if you just met her now and you need to keep that thought in your head and don't lose it. See, I find my XW to be attractive and I do "miss" her, but I now know I can't be w/ her b/c she's not willing to work on herself. Thus, we'd be back here sooner or later.
It has been so good for me to realize that my relationship w/ my XW was holding me back from being me and doing what I want to do. Do I miss being married? Yes. Do I miss the kissing, touching, and togetherness? Yes. Do I miss having my family together? Yes. Do I miss being blamed for everything and having to walk on egg shells? HELL NO!
See, I can have all of the above again, but only if I'm truly happy and healthy for myself. So, my friend, as you go out to do your 180s, do them for YOU AND YOU ALONE! Do not have any hidden motives that your actions will affect your W. You have no control over what will/will not affect her. However, you can affect yourself.
So, I would say, if you want to talk w/ your baby boy, then call him. If you aren't allowed to talk w/ him, leave a message. You could even record in a log when you called each and every night so he'll know when he's older that you tried to tell him good night every night. YOU would feel better b/c this is something you want.
You said you didn't want to talk w/ her so you didn't call. If this comes up, just tell her you called to tell your son goodnight and if she starts to get ugly w/ you, just end the conversation. Say, "I need to go. Good night" and hang up. No getting nasty on your part. No arguing from you. You just detach and let go. She can't fight w/ you if you refuse to fight. She can't argue w/ you if you don't argue back.
I've been there and I know how difficult it is to bite your tongue and hang up. However, after you do it once, it gets easier and easier...and you know what? After a while, they get the message that they can't call and badger and berate you any more. If you "drop the rope" and don't fight w/ her, would that be a 180 for you?
As for her coming back and wanting to make things work in time, she'll have to choose whether or not she'll allow herself to see what you are doing as different. It will be completely up to her to notice, but you can't control that. All you can do is work on making yourself healthy and happy. She'll also have to choose whether or not she'll be willing to look in the mirror at herself.
All you can do is be the best friend to you. You can change you. You can make you happy. Everyone else must make those decisions for themselves. If you are happy and healthy, then if she chooses to catch up to you, that is great. If not, you are in the space you need to be.
I hope this makes sense, and I wish I would have figured things out as far as detaching and getting a life a whole lot sooner. It may have kept me from being divorced. It may not have. However, I do know that it would have allowed me to have been much happier, more free, and more productive in the time we've been apart.
Also, this time, I promise, I'll be back by on a regular basis. We all need to stick together, my man.
RTL - I have to admit that your post brought tears to my eyes...just the generosity of your heart to come back and help really moved me...and, yes, Kalni is a very special person...and I'm grateful to have her checking in on me...
I guess I've been taking longer to figure out the whole 180 thing than I realized...I thought I had it down...get out, get fit, get happy...but there was/is so much more to it...and I wasn't even close until after my W moved out...
Quote:
It has been so good for me to realize that my relationship w/ my XW was holding me back from being me and doing what I want to do. Do I miss being married? Yes. Do I miss the kissing, touching, and togetherness? Yes. Do I miss having my family together? Yes. Do I miss being blamed for everything and having to walk on egg shells? HELL NO!
What you wrote there sums up exactly how I feel...I do miss all those things...but not enough to want my wife back home if she's unwilling to work on herself...and so far, it seems like she's completely unwilling to work on herself - and I just cannot have a person like that around my S11 and always around my S2. I know that she's better with our baby when I'm not around - as he is a very happy, playful baby - and I don't see any signs of him struggling or getting unusually frustrated with his life...that said, today he clung to me really tight after I brought him home from daycare - and he spent a lot of the evening sitting on my lap - and at one point just held me tighter than he's ever held me and didn't want to let go...when his mom got here, I tried to talk with him in an excited voice, saying, mommy is here, let's go see mommy! But he protested and clung to me - and even when we got outside he pulled at my T-shirt - not wanting to let go...and I saw my W glare at me...and when I reached out to touch my baby boy's head and say goodnight while he was in her arms...(just couldn't help the impulse)...I saw that same venomous look in her eyes again...but I just ignored the anger...and told my baby that I love him - and then wished her a good night and went inside...
Her mom is coming down to visit her this weekend...which just means that things will most likely get worse...as they do whenever she spends time with her mom...her mom once told her, "I wasted thirty years of my life being married to a jerk, you shouldn't." (which both my W and SIL eventually shared with me...)...and then my MIL tells me that she thinks I'm the best thing that ever happened to her daughter...and yet she believed my W when my W claimed, out of the blue, that I had somehow hidden $40K from her...and that I had strangled her when she was pregnant, and that I have been abusing her for years...and yet this same MIL will tell me, in the most matter-of-fact voice that my W behaved the same way she is now back when she was 13...only then she said all these terrible things about her father...I've mentioned this before...but it still boggles my mind...though I understand that it's consistent with an abusive home...MIL told me..."If I told her father the things she says about him it would just break his heart." That's the problem...and why she needs more affirmation than I offered...
I'm going to keep finding positive 180s...thinking of going to San Francisco to visit an old friend this weekend...
Hang in there, man. Keep the big picture ahead of you. You don't have to "give up" but you do have to keep all of your actions focused on how it will have a positive effect on YOU not on her. It is extremely hard and maybe you'll have an "Ah Ha!" moment like I did or you'll just get it gradually. However it comes about, just do your best to focus on you and you'll be ok.
Your description of how you handled your W tonight when she was holding your baby boy was great! You said you "ignored her" and that is what you need to do. Keep it up and you'll see yourself growing. If she is to come around and be willing to do work on her for herself, her child and for your marriage, you'll need to be in a position where you are strong enough in your own right.
I'm proud of how you handled things tonight even though her icy glares were hurtful. You did very, very well. Give yourself time to appreciate how you did and notice how you felt afterward. I'm guessing you felt pretty good.
You described your W's accusations to your MIL about things you didn't do to her, well, you may feel better to know you ain't alone, brothter. My XW said I was verbally and mentally abusive the entire time we were together. She said I foricbly raped her. She said I drugged her and raped her. She said I threatened to come through the window and "get" her if she locked me out of the bedroom. She said I punched her when we were exchanging our D. All lies. All taken as the gospel truth by her parents who, like your MIL, used to love me.
So, the mothers of our children, the women we gave so much of our hearts to are unfortunately similar. They have major problems from their past they don't want to deal with and until they do, we can't be with them.
I'm divorced now and although I mentioned before there are things I miss, especially when she's being nice, the reality of it all keeps reminding me I'm not deserving of that treatment. PERIOD!
I wasn't an angel in our M, but I wasn't anything like the man she described. In retrospect, my XW was very needy and controlling. Her major complaint was I was always gone from the house doing things for the school I work for. Well, through my own therapy, I found out I was gone b/c I needed space. I just didn't realize it at the time.
So, could I have been a better, more attentive husband who was much better at talking about his frustrations? Yes. Could I have been more attentive during the first few years of my D's life? Yes - that one is something I'll never get back and I truly regret. However, I took steps to try and save our M. I worked on me to try and save me. What did my XW do? Nothing but point fingers and blame me for her unhappiness.
Conclusion: As sad as the entire event is and as unfortunate as it is for my precious little D, this is the best thing for me and my life going forward.
I hope your sitch doesn't turn out like mine did b/c I'd love to see everyone here be able to repair and regrow their marriage and make it as wonderful as we thought it would be on our wedding day. However, I do want you to take hope that if it doesn't turn around, as long as you can look in the mirror and feel like you've done all you could have done, left no stones unturned, and have no regrets, then you can walk away proud w/ your head held high.
We all have choices to make in life and ultimately that is how we'll be judged - by our actions and how they impacted those around us.
I think a trip to SF to see a friend would be a good one for you. If you get the chance, go up, enjoy the time, hit the town and have fun being out and being alive. Remember, this is truly your time now so make the most of it. Use this time to do the things you want to do and be the person you've always wanted to be.
That is when you'll understand the whole 180 and GAL thing...at least that is when I finally got it.
Rob.... I just read through a lot of your threads...I had no idea we had so very much in common...In my case, it's not an OM that fills my wife with ideas about me as an abuser - but I do know that a friend of hers (who, herself was sexually abused as a child) was the first to tell my wife that I am an abusive husband...information which I got from my MIL and SIL - who, at the time, were both convinced that my W is chemically unbalanced...Now it seems that only my SIL is concerned for my W in that way - but SIL is so angry with my W's histrionics that she just doesn't want to talk deal with my W anymore..to top it off, my W apparently doesn't respond to texts, emails or phone calls from my SIL - and hasn't spoken with my SIL since SIL challenged my W's assertions that I am abusive husband...
A trip to SF is sounding better and better by the minute...My S11 will be with his mom this weekend (he just heard tonight that he made the all star team in his soccer league - and was also recruited for the tournament team). Also, since my MIL will be in town, my W asked me if she could have our baby with her more on Friday and Saturday...Saturday is my day with our son (though I do pick him up from day care every day).
...oddly enough, since I mentioned having someone present when we exchange our son, my W hasn't said anything about calling the police again...or claimed to be afraid of me...doesn't mean she's not up to something...she's just not throwing the threats at me in the same way.
I'm glad to see that you're in such a positive place, Rob...and reading through your thread, there's no doubt that you did everything you could...and that you always put your daughter first. Good man.
