Giving up when not sure if it's WAW, MLC or both?

[AlexEN]

I'm still confused as to how to differentiate between MLC and WAW (or if it really matters to know which it is)... I know in either instance one needs to GAL and work on themselves. I've done that (countless friends have told me how different and more laid back I am, how much better I am with my kids, and my WAW, who originally thought the changes were just to "reel her back in", acknowledges that she thinks changes are "real")... But, and here's where the giving up question comes in, seems that it's too little, too late for her to want to consider anything other than divorce. Have I just not let go enough (detachment) or is it hopeless when I'm now the "man she always wanted me to be", but there are no feelings left for me? Which is right forum for this type of question (Piecing, WAS, Infidelity, MLC, other?) Thanks, AlexEN

[fisherman]

Alex,

It's up to you to decide when to give up? How much can you handle? Is your marriage worth saving to you? Don't listen to all that I don't love you it's too late blah blah blah crap right now. It's up to you, but DBing is to save you and make you better.

You know your wife best. Dbing, Gal, and detaching are for you to become a better person. The changes you make must be permanent. What are your wifes complaints about you? Are they legit. How long has she been unhappy with you and your R?

Generally MLC starts out with a spouse begining to withdraw from the R very slowly. Then there is an overlap between the withdraw and anger. Has she been cold, angry, and blame things on you. Does she project her feelings on you? Is she self absorbed and numb to everyone's feelings but her own.

How was your wife's childhood. Did she have any trouble with her mother or father when she was young? That is usually an underlying issue. Depression is also a major issue.

Think back a few years have either of you had any major life changes to possibly trigger MLC. ie: death of a close relative,job change,job promotion,kids leaving home.

Have you noticed any change in the way she acts, dresses, music she listens to. MLC'ers will generally be the opposite of who they were.

Has she become obsessed with her appearence. Weight loss, tanning, change in hair style. tooth whitening, plastic surgery.

MLC will generally strike a LBS out of the blue. There may be the normal marital issues but nothing major.

Have you read the resources link that I sent you on your other post yesterday?

[AlexEN]

Trapt,

I did read, but it just confused me more as I can't say she fits either description to a "T"...

(What are your wifes complaints about you? Are they legit. How long has she been unhappy with you and your R?)

She doesn't have any major complaints about me any more (used to be distance and taking her for granted). She claims to have been unhappy for more than 15 years (she's wiped the slate clean and has, in a way, rewritten history... "we were never right for each other"... There weren't any "good times". Her biggest complaint now is she just doesn't "feel anything" for me.

(Has she been cold, angry, and blame things on you. Does she project her feelings on you? Is she self absorbed and numb to everyone's feelings but her own.)

Everything you say there describes her as if you knew her!

(How was your wife's childhood. Did she have any trouble with her mother or father when she was young? That is usually an underlying issue. Depression is also a major issue.)

Her mother was/is overbearing. Her mother didn't let her (my wife) express her feelings (you have to work through everything and just forge on... no time to stop and actually have some emotions). Her mom set very high expectations for her (and she has very high expectations of herself). She is a smarter version of her mother, who has never been wrong about anything and very concerned about how she perceives other people perceive her (or her husband, whom she brow-beats). Both my wife and I think her dad is a saint (albeit a wimp), for having put up with her mom for all these years.

(Think back a few years have either of you had any major life changes to possibly trigger MLC. ie: death of a close relative,job change,job promotion,kids leaving home.)

Not really, I think that life just hasn't turned out exactly the way she wanted it to (the standard she set for herself and those around her).

(Have you noticed any change in the way she acts, dresses, music she listens to. MLC'ers will generally be the opposite of who they were.)

She's always dressed with style, but yes, she has been obsessed with working out and constantly has new clothes. She does seem obsessed with her appearance, has lost 20 pounds, does tanning, has done the teeth whitening thing (with the Crest strips), talked about wanting a boob job (even visited top surgeon in the area -- she only decided not to because of the expense). She's also gone Brazilian (because she likes the way it feels). So, yes this is not the way she ever thought/acted before.

(MLC will generally strike a LBS out of the blue. There may be the normal marital issues but nothing major.)

Things weren't great, but not to the point where I would have expected the behavior I've seen... My sitch (if you have an hour is at the link below... I just had to put it all to paper at one point).

It's all so confusing to me...

[fisherman]

Well,

Sounds like a lot of things click, you will have to be the one to make the call. Depression is a huge issue with mlc. The more you learn about it the better. Remember, a common misconception about depression is a person sitting in a corner crying 24hrs. a day. Not so, masked depression is mlc in a way. They will do anything to avoid those awful feelings. Act happy around others, drink, do drugs, party, become workaholics, anything other than dealing with it.

Oh, I forgot to mention 49 yrs. old is very close to 50. This could play a part as well, but as you can see my wife is 29 and she fits MLC to a T. As I understand it, there are transition points in everyone's lives, 30 40 50. Prime time for a crisis if a person is not fully developed.

The emotional suppression could be a factor. With MLC something happens in childhood that hinders the person's developement. As they mature they carry this inside, it is never dealt with properly until they reach a point in life where it rears it's ugly head. They are then force to deal with this childhood issue. They can't help it.

They run off of complete emotion which their not used to dealing with and these are very powerful confusing feelings. Guilt and low self esteem are huge in this too.

Is she forgetful or confused. Will she contradict herself. Sometimes they will resemble someone who suffers from Bi polar disorder.

Perfectionists are prone to depression. Nothing is ever perfect and that is hard for some to accept. MLC'ers will view their spouses as a reflection of them and be very critical, it will start out small and become worse.

Many times they will avoid or distance themselves not only from you, but old friends and family as well. They will then seek out relationships or friendships with others that are usually not the most mature or best or brightest people. Go figure.
The affair is very common. Just a quick fix.

The resources are a great place to learn. Read Read Read.
If you think it's mlc LISTEN VERY CLOSELY -
THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO FOR HER. NOTHING!!!! Nothing you say or do will make her better or help her go through it faster. Do the opposite of what you would normaly think to do. This is a very long journey 3-5yrs. from what others say.
She has to deal with this on her own. You have to let her go to find out. If she wants a D make her do everything. I dont know your sitch, but if you are living together now DON'T LEAVE THE HOUSE let her.

I'm fairly new to this perhaps others will chime in with help.

[fisherman]

No one person is the same therefore no MLC will be the same.

Many of the behaviors will be present though. It seems they all play by the same playbook.

[AlexEN]

Trapt,

Thanks...

(They will do anything to avoid those awful feelings. Act happy around others, drink, do drugs, party, become workaholics, anything other than dealing with it.)

She is a complete workaholic in the sense that she cannot stand not to be busy. She'll make herself busy until the moment she can't keep her eyes open any more then fall into bed. I've always ascribed that to avoiding me, but it might well be what you wrote as a method of avoiding the awful feelings not just me. That's a much healthier way for me to look at it, as I think there is certainly that element to it. Although she would never admit it, I think she is unhappy. She thinks she's figured it all out, but the happiness seems superficial to many of our mutual acquaintances.

(The emotional suppression could be a factor. With MLC something happens in childhood that hinders the person's developement.)

I'm convinced her mother's personality would have done as you write.

(Guilt and low self esteem are huge in this too.)

She acts as if she has very high self esteem, but I'm not sure that isn't a mask.

(Is she forgetful or confused. Will she contradict herself. Sometimes they will resemble someone who suffers from Bi polar disorder.)

Don't know if you read my full sitch, but our oldest son IS bi-polar, which is part of what scares the H out of me in this whole thing and based upon the course it seems to be taking. She actually has been confused about weird things lately. She's gotten the kids names wrong! She was convinced our last anniversary was our 23rd, not the 22nd. And, yes, she does contradict herself, but I don't call her on it because she gets very angry. Logic, in many instances, has been thrown out the window.

(Perfectionists are prone to depression. Nothing is ever perfect and that is hard for some to accept. MLC'ers will view their spouses as a reflection of them and be very critical, it will start out small and become worse.)

Wow. Can you elaborate on this? Where did you learn about this or is it something you formulated on your own? She is critical (but doesn't see it in herself). She is even more hyper-defensive.

(Do the opposite of what you would normaly think to do.)

Not sure I follow...

(If she wants a D make her do everything.)

I'm certainly not going to take the lead at this point...

(I dont know your sitch, but if you are living together now DON'T LEAVE THE HOUSE let her.)

We are... and I have no plans to leave. She won't either because she's afraid of looking like the "bad guy" to the kids!

(I'm fairly new to this perhaps others will chime in with help.)

Ah, but you sound like you have a lot of wisdom for a newbie. I appreciate your chiming in.

Thanks,

AlexEN

[fisherman]

It sounds like it could be, if it is, Remember this is all about her there is not one thing you can do to speed this up or snap her out and make her see the light.

Looking at this as a temporary mental illness will help. You must make a choice though. this will be the hardest thing you have ever went through. Can you forgive her, it's pretty much an all or nothing type of a deal.

You must know this is a long journey. You may do everything right and still might not be able to save your marriage. I'm not trying to be negative just real.

No matter what you say or do you will be her #1 enemy. You must have patience like never before x 1000000.

Stay out of her way and focus on yourself and children. This will transform you into a much improved you (and hopefully your wife as well) She is on a journey and your not invited. While she is in outerspace, your kids need you like no other.

Don't ever confront the OM, he is a low life user. If your wife is in MLC she is not capable of having a real R with anyone. This is a life ring to someone who is in a panic and can't see she has a Ship in you.

You must let her go a distance your self from the drama. She will test you and she knows exactly what buttons to push.

MlC'ers thrive on negative emotions. SHOW HER NOTHING BUT HAPPINESS. It will drive her nuts and make her angry but don't fall into her traps. IT ONLY FEEDS HER JUSTIFICATION TO ACT THIS WAY.
Deep down she knows something is wrong. Denial is huge in this.

[whitneypinch]

Oh my god,
This whole thread is my WAW as well. She is 34 but had done everything you have said. We have been apart for a year now. I have not brought up out R until today. I have DBed to a T and yes I have had some backslides. I just got feed up of not being heard and constantly hurt by my W so I spilled the beans. I basically explained how I stood for our M and our family. For god's sake we have 2 little kids. She basically unloaded back to me that I was so selfish when we were M that she fell so out of love with me that she NEVER has the interest in recapturing that. She acknowledges what a great dad I now am and all the great things I do now. She feels that the kids will be great and everything is fine now. We will be divorced in a few weeks officially. I am just disgusted that we don't even talk about this. It's been a year and she has not said a word about it. We are friendly and see each other ever few weeks because of the kids. We do drop offs and pick-ups at school. Everyone of her friends say she is not seeing anyone but I don't quite believe it.
Oh, BTW if she has gone Brazilian there is a good chance someone else is involved. I am so sorry to say that.
We are living in a throw away culture now where everyone is chasing that elusive 'happiness" rainbow. I think all the DBing we do can only help us. If our spouse wants to come back they will, if they don't thy won't.
I read these boards everyday with the hope that I can understand my WAW better. I will never understand this. I do understand that most of us DAM were major causes of unhappiness but what happened to commitment. Listen, no one should ever have to put up with unhappiness but for "F" sake try to do everything possible before you WAW. I have spoken to a number of divorced women who have said that if their H did all the work I have done and completely changed for the best...that they would at least talk to their ex. I did not get any talk. She is wonderful and nice to me and we get along better than ever but just has no interest in anything. So, some of us married the wrong person. On my first T session my T yelled at me for not listening to my W. On my second session she said our marriage ended because my W basically lacked commitment. Commitment that our M and family was important. Commitment enough to at least explore alternatives to a D.

[MsMelancoly]

Hi AlexEN, Just stopping by to say hello. Excellent questions, I must say.

trapt, you gave some great advise and insight. Thank you for sharing. Once again, I have learned a great deal.

[sleeper]

This past summer, 1.5 years post "breakdown/separation", when X seemed to be making progress and possibly coming out of anger stage, would you believe:

SHE COULDN'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATES OF OUR CHILDREN'S BIRTHDAYS?!?!?!

She actually planned a party on the wrong day. I convinced her of the correct date and she laughed off her mistake by saying she always was an airhead.

Yeah, but she never got their birthdays wrong before.